Elitist guilds, will we see them?

Classic Discussion
Just popped to my head. What do you think will we see many "hardcore" raiding guilds on classic servers?

Raiding on vanilla will be a fun thing for sure, but the raids are a joke designed for 20-30 people and will be cleared the day they open so idea of an "hardcore" guild denying you playing an enha shaman for example seems rather silly.

Sure there will be some trying to get world firsts.

Not sure what I'm trying to say here.
There will be :) Take Super Mario speedrunners as an example: The challange is not the content itself but rather min-maxing the hell out of it for the best possible time :) Additionally, less time spent in raids also means more time for PvP :)
Vast majority of guilds won’t be able to beat all the raids, but there will definitely be elite guilds that do. Especially now that all the strats are known.
14/11/2018 06:50Posted by Alagner
Vast majority of guilds won’t be able to beat all the raids, but there will definitely be elite guilds that do. Especially now that all the strats are known.

If people can do retail normal raids then they can do anythings aside of AQ40 and Naxx. If they can farm retail heroic raids then they will be to run AQ40 and Naxx. With all the knowledge, tutorials, theorycrafting, preparation and a good raid leader it's easy.... if they will put the effort to do so.
Yes, elite guilds do speedruns in vanilla private servers. I'm sure people will continue to do so in Classic and the scene will probably get bigger around it.
14/11/2018 06:50Posted by Alagner
Especially now that all the strats are known.

Where is this myth stemming from that in Vanilla strats weren't widely available?? I keep reading that garbage over and over. Back in vanilla strats were readily available and widely distributed. Maybe not so much in the first month of the raid, but as soon as an elite guild would clear a boss the strats were out there! 99% of the raiding guilds had strats! The last 1% were the elite guilds that figured out the strats.
14/11/2018 11:20Posted by Kheron
Where is this myth stemming from that in Vanilla strats weren't widely available?? I keep reading that garbage over and over. Back in vanilla strats were readily available and widely distributed. Maybe not so much in the first month of the raid, but as soon as an elite guild would clear a boss the strats were out there! 99% of the raiding guilds had strats! The last 1% were the elite guilds that figured out the strats.


The idea that they weren't widely available stems from 3 things. First of all, they typically came in the form of written text, not youtube videos. It's already tricky to get people to look at videos, even the shorter ones, after linking them on discord up to a month in advance. It's still common to take breaks so people can alt-tab and watch them. So in all honesty it wasn't a case of availability but reach.

Second, strategies weren't "fixed". Raids with different compositions would find different strategies working better, considering classes weren't homogenised. Which often led to bad raid leaders picking a strategy that wouldn't work for their group, creating the impression that it was "made up on the spot".

Third, people would often try to impress others in their guild by copy pasting guides instead of just linking the source. Internet wasn't as familiar then as it is now, so this would actually be at least partially effective.

Of course the idea that strategies weren't known is false :)
You actually think that 20 or 30 people will beat BWL, Naxxramus or AQ40 on the day they open?

You might want to do some research about how Vanilla end game worked.
Ofcourse there will be hardcore or elitist guilds. Different types of people enjoy different types of approaches to the game. I can only imagine how incredibly boring life would be if everything enjoyed the exact same things.

Sure MC is easily clearable. BWL slightly less so but still easy. Difficulty ramps up with every raid. There's no way any guilds but the top ones will easily tackle a raid like Naxx though. And all of this talk of 20-30 people easily destroying early content is pulled out of proportion by Private server players who are doing the exact same thing for the 5th time or have practised raids a dozen times on test realms before a raid is launched (myself included). There's no way Joe, Bob and Billy who have last played Vanilla 12 years ago are going to steamroll MC as soon as they're level 58, even if it is easy content.

Personally I like a more hardcore approach and will approach Classic the same way, even if I have already cleared all the content previously. I enjoy raids when they're smooth and well organised and when my fellow raiders put in the same effort as me. I would also absolutely deny Enh/Ele Shamans or Feral/Balance Druids raid spots.
14/11/2018 11:42Posted by Nethelie
14/11/2018 11:20Posted by Kheron
Where is this myth stemming from that in Vanilla strats weren't widely available?? I keep reading that garbage over and over. Back in vanilla strats were readily available and widely distributed. Maybe not so much in the first month of the raid, but as soon as an elite guild would clear a boss the strats were out there! 99% of the raiding guilds had strats! The last 1% were the elite guilds that figured out the strats.


The idea that they weren't widely available stems from 3 things. First of all, they typically came in the form of written text, not youtube videos. It's already tricky to get people to look at videos, even the shorter ones, after linking them on discord up to a month in advance. It's still common to take breaks so people can alt-tab and watch them. So in all honesty it wasn't a case of availability but reach.

Second, strategies weren't "fixed". Raids with different compositions would find different strategies working better, considering classes weren't homogenised. Which often led to bad raid leaders picking a strategy that wouldn't work for their group, creating the impression that it was "made up on the spot".

Third, people would often try to impress others in their guild by copy pasting guides instead of just linking the source. Internet wasn't as familiar then as it is now, so this would actually be at least partially effective.

Of course the idea that strategies weren't known is false :)


More or less every guild out there followed strats.
Videos were a thing, where do you think we got our PvP-influenses from? Text documents? There were plenty videos, perhaps not as "tutorialish" like todays - but still they would give you a idea. If 1 out of 40 people did some reading, they could explain it to the rest - had text been a issue (which it was not).

And even tho raids werent fixed, the same 1-2 tactics were more or less used with modifications (depending on gear, setup, Ally/Horde).
As an example; Raz in BWL had some "less geared" Horde guilds kiting with earthbind-totems, before they had gear to nuke mobs down. Allys had to handle it by killing mobs straight away and perhaps made that encounter somewhat harder for "less geared" Alliance guild in the start.

And I dont know what your third point has to do with anything. Coped tactics are still tactics, credit or not.

People act like the internet, forums, videos, MMO's and games over all were invented 2005 and that the people who played 2005 were monkeys with computers. The big zerg of casuals and people who happened to enjoy WoW for anything but raiding is not representative for the people who knew what they were doing and did it good.

Diffrence now its 14 years old tactics played by a concentrated click of hardcore players on private servers, where the numbers arent count in MILLIONS (like back during Vanilla) but rather in THOUSANDS who prehand optimize everything. 14 years of theorycrafting will do wonders.
A concentrated playerbase > on the same server < where the only focus is doing raids, in counter to people who played it 14 years ago and did as good as they could with what they had available seen in terms of people, classes and gear on that specific server (1 out of 40-50 in that region only).

Im not saying Vanilla was hard, becuase seen to mechanics of bosses etc it wasn't and wont be. But there were alot more factors than that which made sure Naxx wasnt cleared by many - not the fact that "players had no skill".
14/11/2018 12:53Posted by Zienix
There's no way Joe, Bob and Billy who have last played Vanilla 12 years ago are going to steamroll MC as soon as they're level 58, even if it is easy content.

Completely agree.

14/11/2018 12:53Posted by Zienix
I would also absolutely deny Enh/Ele Shamans or Feral/Balance Druids raid spots.

Now why did you have to go and say that? Do you want me to be that guy who constantly goes off-topic and argues in favor of druids?

Hardcore doesn't have to mean elitist. What is elitist, is hardcore guilds excluding specs without exception without considering individual qualities. I can agree with not having balance druids in a progression raid (and I don't know too much about vanilla shamans) but a feral druid is worth bringing instead of a 4th prot tank for various reasons, as long as it is a good one who knows his class through and through. I know that finding such a good player is difficult, but just dismissing the idea outright is short-sighted imo.
Hardcore vanilla raiding is basically speedrun raiding. The top guilds aim to clear MC in sub 30 minutes. BWL will be cleared in the same hour it releases.
14/11/2018 13:17Posted by Devilsknight
More or less every guild out there followed strats.


I think you misunderstood my point. I'm trying to explain where the misconception that "tactic's weren't known" came from, not to reinforce said misconception. Tactics were known very widely, and I did mention that the idea that they were "obscure" somehow is totally false. Apologies if I wasn't clear.
14/11/2018 13:19Posted by Hedhel
Now why did you have to go and say that? Do you want me to be that guy who constantly goes off-topic and argues in favor of druids?

Because the OP mentioned the following:
13/11/2018 23:58Posted by Sumutar
idea of an "hardcore" guild denying you playing an enha shaman for example seems rather silly.

I just added Druids in there because they're another hybrid class with debatable specs.

And for the record I've raided for years on Private servers with the guild I've managed that has gotten numerous server firsts on servers like Nostalrius, including KT. I'm pretty confident in our decision not to invite any Feral Druids. I'm sorry if you disagree but it's a well thought out decision and not a short-sighted one.

If excluding specs without exception regardless of individual qualities makes me elitist, then I'm most definitely elitist. I'm not going to go into detail but from my experience (which is by now ~9 years of Vanilla on Blizzard servers and Private servers combined), the majority of hybrid spec players aren't interested solely in playing their most optimal PvE spec. They wish to gather offspec items from raids as well. I'm not going to invite one Shaman, Druid, Paladin, or whatever class as that single suboptimal PvE spec and give them priority on gear over all the other players of the same class that bring more to the guild by playing a spec they often don't love.
And from those speed runs are those stereotypes about classes.
Ohh no 2 shadow priests are in group, its will take 2 mins more to clear this raid.
Yeah hardcore guilds will be a thing of course. But even in casual progression guilds do not expect to raid as a Dps shaman / pala / druid or to tank as a pala / druid. Unless you are rl friend of the guild master.
I am pretty sure about there will be guils selling MC/BWL/AQ runs for gold just like in retail servers.
14/11/2018 14:26Posted by Horrorpunk
But even in casual progression guilds do not expect to raid as a Dps shaman / pala / druid or to tank as a pala / druid. Unless you are rl friend of the guild master.

but in casual progression guild you have chance to be effective sub-optimal spec if you are willing in putting more effort than rest of your guild.... i think people don't seem to get that.

in vanilla there is tons of different consumables, you can get edge with sub-optimal spec and even top dps meters in casual guilds.
14/11/2018 14:39Posted by Aule
I am pretty sure about there will be guils selling MC/BWL/AQ runs for gold just like in retail servers.


like it was back in 2005 also. Gold dkp runs and selling runs/loot was a thing after 1.9 patch in twisting nether.
14/11/2018 13:27Posted by Zienix
I just added Druids in there because they're another hybrid class with debatable specs.

And for the record I've raided for years on Private servers with the guild I've managed that has gotten numerous server firsts on servers like Nostalrius, including KT. I'm pretty confident in our decision not to invite any Feral Druids. I'm sorry if you disagree but it's a well thought out decision and not a short-sighted one.

If excluding specs without exception regardless of individual qualities makes me elitist, then I'm most definitely elitist. I'm not going to go into detail but from my experience (which is by now ~9 years of Vanilla on Blizzard servers and Private servers combined), the majority of hybrid spec players aren't interested solely in playing their most optimal PvE spec. They wish to gather offspec items from raids as well. I'm not going to invite one Shaman, Druid, Paladin, or whatever class as that single suboptimal PvE spec and give them priority on gear over all the other players of the same class that bring more to the guild by playing a spec they often don't love.

I understand your argument, but I agree if you're talking about e.g. a balance druid or elemental shaman, who just have no viability in a progression raid and would have to be carried.

Look, I'm not questioning your experience or the decisions your guild made. I'm sure they were perfectly valid. And I raided MC and BWL back in Vanilla so I won't presume to talk about a feral's usefulness in AQ40 or Naxx. I'm just saying that while there are specs that just have no place in any circumstance in a progression raid (e.g. balance druid), it is my personal experience (I played resto but we had a feral back in the day) that while exceptional, there is wiggle room for a feral druid. I'm not saying it will happen often, as you would need a very skilled player, but it is possible.

About gearing, I only raided in Vanilla and TBC, and only know the DKP system. So in my experience, if you show up for raids, you get to spend your commitment on the gear you want, with the caveat of main spec over off spec ofcourse. And I know it doesn't always work like that, but honestly, you really should only play a class/spec that you enjoy.

Back on topic, yes there will be elitist guilds.

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