Loot trading suggestion

Classic Discussion
Hi all,

after the announcement of loot trading, I'm sure a lot of us could come up with multiple issues with this feature (e.g. bringing friends to roll for you, loot item to sell it for gold etc...).
I think most of us can agree that this feature enables to do more harm than good in PUGs while having positive impact in organized group (such as guild groups).

So I thought about a two options as middle ground for this feature.

First possible option:
Make this feature enabled only in guild group. This would require the guild group detection introduced in Cataclysm to be brought into classic, which would impact only this feature (I really don't see how this feature might impact the game further). So this means, loot trading would be on only in instanced zones in guild groups.

Second possible option:
Make this feature completly optional. This would give option for non-guild groups to enable this feature. How I imagine this would work is, that enabling it affects only bosses/creatures killed after switching this option on while this option wouldnt be able to enable during combat.
This would prevent from enabling this during boss fight to screw up with players in raid.

The idea here is, that as time goes, since there won't be cross-realm grouping and raiding, to enable this option for non-guild group of people who know each other and trust each other to use this feature in a manner it was meant to be used.

What I tried here is to take the Loot trading feature, and implement it where it will make the least harm.

What do you guys think? I'm aware these might not be perfect solution, so I would like to hear some of your opinions. I guess not having Loot trading might be the best solution but personally I find this middle ground most convenient of using both spectrums for the best.
removing a GM support for trading looted items (excluding the cases of ninja) and disabling loot trading would objectively be the best. there's always somebody telling my how i'm delusional or solely basing everything around my opinion so i expect nothing different in this thread either.

from what i wrote just above, why do i think it's the best course of action? having no support or having no loot trading would mean you're locked having that item. if you're running a dungeon as 4 friends and you invite someone random for your 5th spot and if that random does need a certain item (while only 1 of you needs that item), the other 4 can easily all need and that one guy has only 20% chance to win that item, while one of their friends has 80%, as opposed to when you're both rolling an item and both of you have 50% chance of winning it.

now i know someone very "clever" will just say something like: "but then don't join such groups" or "make your own group" - and how am i supposed to know if any of those people are friends? how am i supposed to know if any of those people already arranged that item selling to each other just when the group was forming? there's no countering it. it promotes unfair play and it's giving ninjas a solid excuse as to why they looted a certain item. even if it was on a private server, there was no loot trading and GM's rejected any ticket regarding item trades and the amount of ninja loots were second to none. it happened sooo rarely that you can't even say it actually happened at all, simply because those who ninja looted a dungeon item (for example a mage rolling need on shields or plate items just to grief that warrior), faced temporary account ban consequences, which increased with repeated offenders and those who got away with it, got away with only a couple of gold worth of gear as they're unable to do anything else with it, but sell or disenchant it.

here's another one of those smart questions: "what if a new player ninja'd said item? would he get banned to?" short answer is: yes. the game is 15 years old and there's no reason for ANYONE to go in blindly and press need on everything they see.

"and what about disenchant rolls?" those were actually a big deal in TBC tbh. implementing 'flags' if a player rolls need on an item that his class can't use while a class that somebody else can use has also rolled need, would fix that issue entirely. if people agreed to disenchant rolls, then only an enchanter would be the one rolling need. not anybody else. accumulating more of these flags would attract GM's attention.

"but loot trading was already in vanilla!" - no, it was not. try to log any 1.12.1 vanilla server and you'll see that you cannot trade items.
"you can, via GM ticket" - yes, and that was only for those who knew about that and it couldn't have been done every time. furthermore, not only you had to wait for that GM's response, but you had to be online, along with your friend that you wanted to give that item to - which was basically fooling that GM that you didn't know about something or that it was an accident and so on. you can't play that card today. there's plenty of information about said things. i'm not talking about a resto druid looting a BiS item for rogues, as technically, that druid can use that item or even a cloth item... but taking a plate one or something they can never use? that's not ok. ever.

basically, i tried to cover everything. loot trading is not a valid option and it should NOT be in classic. subscription payment already has GM assistance (and their hourly rate) completely covered and with these things i just wrote, it can only decrease their amount of work and to be completely fair, such a high sub price for all of that is definitely very high (too high tbh). loot trading would cause chaos in dungeons, literally forcing people to alienate, distrust and suspect everyone and everything. i understand why blizzard wants to do it, but i'm very much against it.
It's nice to try to find good compromises, but I feel like there's no need to. It should be fine if they would just remove both loot trading and GM loot support. Players' incompetence in pressing the right button when making rolls shouldn't be GMs' concern at all (even if it was in Vanilla, still it would be a better change than implementing loot trading from LFG era). And I don't believe loot mistakes will happen often enough to be a massive problem.
06/11/2018 01:20Posted by Luminnar


basically, i tried to cover everything. loot trading is not a valid option and it should NOT be in classic. subscription payment already has GM assistance (and their hourly rate) completely covered and with these things i just wrote, it can only decrease their amount of work and to be completely fair, such a high sub price for all of that is definitely very high (too high tbh). loot trading would cause chaos in dungeons, literally forcing people to alienate, distrust and suspect everyone and everything. i understand why blizzard wants to do it, but i'm very much against it.


I agree with you, how this looting system can be abused (as I mentioned some cases as well) and so to update my suggestion, I think adding Loot trading option only to Master Looter looting option would prevent most of the issues you listed.

At least from my experience, pugs rarely ran master looter because people didn't trust each other. So let's say you are group of 4 friends in 5 men dung. You invite the 5th random player, and now it's his decision whether he/she will roll with your loot option or not.

Additional option could be to enable Master Looter only in full guild group. I mean, we are getting this feature in one way or another, and maybe after it will be heavily abused Blizzard will remove it, what I'm trying to find here is a middle ground which would reduce the damage this feature might cause.
Was loot trading a problem during WotLK?
06/11/2018 12:45Posted by Dumac
Was loot trading a problem during WotLK?


I don't remember which expansion added this feature but you don't have to go so far back.
Just during Legion and MoP (from what I remember) it was common practice, if you rolled with Master Looter, to roll for friend even if you didn't need item, or get an item and then sell it to someone who needed it. So yes this feature created an issue.
06/11/2018 01:29Posted by Федя
It's nice to try to find good compromises, but I feel like there's no need to. It should be fine if they would just remove both loot trading and GM loot support. Players' incompetence in pressing the right button when making rolls shouldn't be GMs' concern at all (even if it was in Vanilla, still it would be a better change than implementing loot trading from LFG era). And I don't believe loot mistakes will happen often enough to be a massive problem.


Tbh, after all the fuss that was made on this topic. I actually agree on this.
I do believe in the good intentions of the loot trade, but it might do more harm than good.
You could even allow gm support for 1 case per x months if neede.
Iirc during tbc items deleted could be restored but they did it only once for your account. I remember it as I used it once.
They didn’t hold our hand for accidently deleting items then (but it’s a little different as you yourself deleted the item, not someone else took it by “accident”).
At first when they explained the reason behind it i didn't mind it thaaat much.. but then i tought..

If i'm a mage and realy need a staff in the dungeon and it finaly drops
but in the group was 2-3 friends that needs for the item so they can give it their friend in the group?
What then? Report for Ninja looting for a friend?
I bet it's going to be more Ninja looting then.
06/11/2018 12:45Posted by Dumac
Was loot trading a problem during WotLK?

It was. I mean, it was happening during WotLK and/or Cata, but it wasn't a big problem because people had LFG tools, more 'gear standardization' and certain limitations on what they can roll. Loot trading was made to work with other WotLK systems. You can't really compare, and you can only imagine what can it do to Classic.

06/11/2018 13:04Posted by Rechoque
I do believe in the good intentions of the loot trade, but it might do more harm than good.
You could even allow gm support for 1 case per x months if neede.

Now that I think about it. Maybe money isn't the reason, even. It makes sense if nowadays Blizzard GMs simply ain't allowed to manipulate items and such.
06/11/2018 13:43Posted by Федя

Now that I think about it. Maybe money isn't the reason, even. It makes sense if nowadays Blizzard GMs simply ain't allowed to manipulate items and such.


I would say, the reason for GMs not being allowed to manipulate with items nowadays is that back in a days if you wanted some item manipulation done via GM sometimes it was like a lottery. Some GMs did provide and some didn't, which created this unfairness in treated the tickets so Blizzard just prohibited all GMs with such actions. (This is just speculation)

On the other thought, as some pointed out, it might seem like not having either loot trading nor gm sevice for loot trading might be objectively the best option.

But I still believe this feature should be implemented at least for guild groups as the tools to detect one already exists. This is not only because your guild leader might misclick to assign loot, a lot of times during my guild raids, after the loot has been distributed, some players realized it's not as big of an upgrade as for other (I believe simming will be a thing in modern Classic) and he simply passed the looted item to more benefitial means.
Yes this can be prevented by making research of itemization ahead, but this feature if used in right environment (such as guild raid) can be very helpful when such error from player side occurs.

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