Classic was hard for casuals

Classic Discussion
I'd say BFA is more mechanically complex at the highest level which is mythic but outside of that I would argue it's very easy. The modern game is designed to be a easy going single player experience outside of raiding and as others have said it's tailored for people that want to rush to end game to raid. They have trivialized all of the content between 1 to max because the devs only care about raiding. That's what people mean when they say vanilla is harder.

This obviously isn't the case with vanilla, it might not be as mechanically complex but you can't just face pull everything. You have to engage with other players more often than not. Even with 1.12 talents elite group quests are a wipe fest if you aren't properly prepared. You watch, in Redridge you'll see 3-4 groups of people taking turns killing the elite orcs and the 'named' mobs. I've actually seen a group of these mobs take down an over confident undergeared 50.
One really good place to meet people back in Vanilla and TBC was in Western Plagueland, Andorhal.

Remember Araj The Summoner? The big Lich guy who resided in the middle of the town?

Occasionally a very skilled, and well-geared Hunter or Warlock would be able to solo him and his long chain of adds, but most often people used to hang around hoping others would show up to help them down him. I've had some pretty fun times in that location back in the good 'ole days.
10/11/2018 15:24Posted by Recollector
AQ40/Naxx = BfA mythic raiding (hardcore guilds) - about 5% will do it.


I'm not sure about this.
The reason most of the players don't clear mythic as a guild is (at least in my opinion) that Blizzard is constantly releasing new raids and catch-up mechanics so new characters can ignore the old content.
For many casual players the only reason to still run Uldir mythic in 8.2 will be transmog gear and you can get it far easier if you just wait until the next expansion.

Give players enough time and a good reason to clear a hard raid and I promise you that even the "filthy casuals" will eventually do it.
10/11/2018 16:19Posted by Yathrin
10/11/2018 15:24Posted by Recollector
AQ40/Naxx = BfA mythic raiding (hardcore guilds) - about 5% will do it.


I'm not sure about this.
The reason most of the players don't clear mythic as a guild is (at least in my opinion) that Blizzard is constantly releasing new raids and catch-up mechanics so new characters can ignore the old content.
For many casual players the only reason to still run Uldir mythic in 8.2 will be transmog gear and you can get it far easier if you just wait until the next expansion.

Give players enough time and a good reason to clear a hard raid and I promise you that even the "filthy casuals" will eventually do it.


The reason most people don’t do mythic is, there are not enough good player on most servers who are not already in a guild. Many guild can’t play mythic until it’s free for Crossrealm
WoW was casual friendly unless you were trying to go for a serious raiding guild or a high pvp title.

As someone else said it mostly was so hard because people didnt know what to do in the beginning yet. When i played for a while on nostalrius however i had no problems, because i was used to using cc, the proffesions, dungeons and other stuff. The only thing that was actually hard before end game raiding was questing as a warrior
BFA is hard for casuals too, if you want to actually achieve anything (overcoming challenging content) it's just as time consuming as Vanilla was while also being arguably more time intensive at times.

The very reason I'm not subbed currently is because I've turned into a casual and since Legion a casual cannot be a raider, and I don't mean people who play 8 hours a day but suck or don't want to make an effort/socialise, I mean casual as in having very limited time to play.

I've decided I'm gonna play Classic, it will take me about 2-3 months to hit level 60 if I can average about 3 hours a day. That's really my only goal to be honest, I think if I had the time/desire to put in effort to raid I'd do it in BFA instead.
vanilla wasn't hard. far from that, it was seriously easy and casual-friendly... well, up to a point, after which it became frustrating (grinding the same stuff over and over again, obtaining world buffs before a raid and praying you don't die or get dispelled, ranking up in bgs, etc). how about raids? were they hard on vanilla? if you were a monkey that clicks on abilities, has some mental disorder or learning disability, plays without a keyboard, then yeah, vanilla was hard. otherwise, it's possibly the simplest WoW version there is. let's compare it to TBC for example, where even composing a raid played a huge role and every single T5 or higher had at least 1 boss that required extreme teamwork and even with all the data that one can dig up now on these bosses, they still required several raid tries to down. those who completed all the attunements and had T6 gear were really insane players back then. i can't say the same for vanilla, due to the fact that most content was doable even if 5 or more people died on 99% of a fight and fights were mechanically too simple and boring (with the exception of few)

10/11/2018 13:33Posted by Geronîmoo
10/11/2018 12:38Posted by Nuckchorris
MC was clearable by 30man group of experienced and geared (not overgeared) players


30 people would never be able to clear MC unless they were overgeared or had full T1 and some stuff from BWL.

On a private server, i'd believe it's possible because of how AP/SP scales there, but not back in the original game.

Some bosses in there, like in other raids, were skill/gear/dps/heal checks and if you failed on either, you'd be stuck on that boss until you had adequate gear and enough skills to know what to do in every possible situation during said boss fight.

Take for example the first boss fight in there. Lucifron. You wouldn't be able to cope with the mindcontrols the same way you would with a full raid even if you use the small cave for LoS. Add to that, Lucifron himself debuffs multiple targets with Lucifron's curse, then there's the impending doom debuff.

Although we are more informed now than we were back then, we still don't know how Classic will be in terms of AP/SP scaling but i am going to guess that it'll be nothing like how it is on the private servers once Classic is officially released.


and you'll see that people who played on those "broken" private servers will be the first ones to clear the entire content and lead raids. i guarantee it. it won't be anyone from retail or someone who only played back in the original, but it will be those who still play on privates.
I think difficult or easy is not the right way of expressing it. I understand being casual to be determined by how much time you spend ingame. In that sense, I think it has everything to do with time and effort.

Vanilla is very casual friendly in the sense that even if you do not spend 2+ hours each day on gaming, you can still do questing, pvp and dungeons and see plenty of content. It's just going to be at a slower pace and you can't go raiding. But that's fine. Whereas in current WoW, you can get full epic quite easily without having to do much for it or interact with anybody.

The reward system is different in that you can tell by a person's gear how much time (s)he has spend on attaining it. Therefore, in Classic even attaining full blue pre-raid BiS gear is something that shows a significant amount of commitment and effort, while a fully epic geared player in BfA doesn't mean all that much.
vanilla wasn't hard. far from that, it was seriously easy and casual-friendly... well, up to a point, after which it became frustrating (grinding the same stuff over and over again, obtaining world buffs before a raid and praying you don't die or get dispelled, ranking up in bgs, etc). how about raids? were they hard on vanilla? if you were a monkey that clicks on abilities, has some mental disorder or learning disability, plays without a keyboard, then yeah, vanilla was hard. otherwise, it's possibly the simplest WoW version there is. let's compare it to TBC for example, where even composing a raid played a huge role and every single T5 or higher had at least 1 boss that required extreme teamwork and even with all the data that one can dig up now on these bosses, they still required several raid tries to down. those who completed all the attunements and had T6 gear were really insane players back then. i can't say the same for vanilla, due to the fact that most content was doable even if 5 or more people died on 99% of a fight and fights were mechanically too simple and boring (with the exception of few)


How often have I seen this kind of post?

Vanilla wasn't hard because.....

[......insert a load of stuff about raiding, raiding, more raiding and nothing but raiding.....]


Yes, the raid bosses are harder in retail. I think we all realise that. But there's more to Classic WoW than raiding, raiding, more raiding, and nothing but raiding.
10/11/2018 18:46Posted by Grupp
vanilla wasn't hard. far from that, it was seriously easy and casual-friendly... well, up to a point, after which it became frustrating (grinding the same stuff over and over again, obtaining world buffs before a raid and praying you don't die or get dispelled, ranking up in bgs, etc). how about raids? were they hard on vanilla? if you were a monkey that clicks on abilities, has some mental disorder or learning disability, plays without a keyboard, then yeah, vanilla was hard. otherwise, it's possibly the simplest WoW version there is. let's compare it to TBC for example, where even composing a raid played a huge role and every single T5 or higher had at least 1 boss that required extreme teamwork and even with all the data that one can dig up now on these bosses, they still required several raid tries to down. those who completed all the attunements and had T6 gear were really insane players back then. i can't say the same for vanilla, due to the fact that most content was doable even if 5 or more people died on 99% of a fight and fights were mechanically too simple and boring (with the exception of few)


How often have I seen this kind of post?

Vanilla wasn't hard because.....

[......insert a load of stuff about raiding, raiding, more raiding and nothing but raiding.....]


Yes, the raid bosses are harder in retail. I think we all realise that. But there's more to Classic WoW than raiding, raiding, more raiding, and nothing but raiding.


ok, what else? leveling? it was as easy or as hard as it was on TBC. it took a long time and you needed to group on either version for certain quests.

pvp? unbalanced. heavily imbalanced actually as there was no class balancing philosophy and most specs were downright broken. no arenas, only normal bg's, low competition for skilled players. boring to even start talking about. professions? easier to level than in TBC. what else is there? pls help me, since obviously i can only write about raiding and pve on top of being a pvp player xd
10/11/2018 19:11Posted by Luminnar
professions? easier to level than in TBC.


Was there anything harder than vanilla fishing?
10/11/2018 19:11Posted by Luminnar
pvp? unbalanced. heavily imbalanced actually as there was no class balancing philosophy and most specs were downright broken. no arenas, only normal bg's, low competition for skilled players. boring to even start talking about. professions? easier to level than in TBC. what else is there? pls help me, since obviously i can only write about raiding and pve on top of being a pvp player xd


We take pleasure in different things that's kind of the point Grupp was making, the old game was about player engagement and socialization whether as later expansions homogenize the classes and focus entirely on efficiency at the expensive of player engagement. Classes in vanilla were built from the design philosophy of roles - like in DnD - the focus was being as different from each other as they possibly could and in tune with their class fantasy. The function was less a single specs competitive nature but the role of the class as a whole, paladin's were support and that is where they excelled and so on. MMORPG.

For example I don't enjoy chasing a bear druid around a pillar for hours in a small box until we eventually time out - but then I wouldn't be rude about it like you are or generalize as if that was the entire PVP experience. TM/SS, WPVP, sporadic warzones and groups of players fighting over patches of ground are more interesting to me because I enjoy the SOCIAL experience over hyper competitive arena comps.
Personally, I agree Vanilla Wow was quite hard on casuals, mainly due to a combination of 2 reasons:

-The game was slow. To get anywhere you needed to invest quite a bit of time into that task.

-The game wasn't exactly balanced. Some things performed differently than expected or downright sucked.

Combing these two meant that somebody who didn't do his/her research beforehand might very well invest significant amounts of time into something that was not useful or fun to them, despite expectations of the contrary.
10/11/2018 19:11Posted by Luminnar
pvp? unbalanced. heavily imbalanced actually as there was no class balancing philosophy and most specs were downright broken. no arenas, only normal bg's, low competition for skilled players. boring to even start talking about. professions? easier to level than in TBC. what else is there? pls help me, since obviously i can only write about raiding and pve on top of being a pvp player xd


We take pleasure in different things that's kind of the point Grupp was making the old game was about player engagement and socialization whether as latter expansions homogenize the classes and focus entirelty on efficiency. Classes in vanilla were built from the design philosophy of roles like in DnD the focus and being as different from each other as they possibly could. The function was less the specs but the role of the class, paladin's were support and that is where they excelled and so on. MMORPG.

For example I don't enjoy chasing a bear druid around a pillar for hours in a small box until we eventually time out - but then I wouldn't be rude about it like you are or generalize as if that was the entire PVP experience. TM/SS, WPVP, sporadic warzones and groups of players fighting over patches of ground are more interesting to me because I enjoy the SOCIAL experience over hyper competitive arena comps.


Classes centered around roles, so its clear they are not meant to small skirmish pvp. Whats then left? raids and battlegrounds. raids can be taken as a given challenge wheras battlegrounds are, by the very random nature of whom was playing absolute chaos, so no difficulty to begin with but either lucky classpicks or unlucky classpicks.

Getting to that "social aspect", it wasnt any more or less, its just fading memories of a time you think have to be better than right now.
10/11/2018 19:31Posted by Lentat
Classes centered around roles, so its clear they are not meant to small skirmish pvp. Whats then left? raids and battlegrounds. raids can be taken as a given challenge wheras battlegrounds are, by the very random nature of whom was playing absolute chaos, so no difficulty to begin with but either lucky classpicks or unlucky classpicks.


I think you're missing the point here, I don't recall saying vanilla was more mechanically complex or difficult. The old PVP balance was rock, paper, scissors but I can't speak extensively on it because quite frankly it's been too long. The argument is less about what I feel is harder and more what other people take enjoyment out of.

10/11/2018 19:31Posted by Lentat
Getting to that "social aspect", it wasnt any more or less, its just fading memories of a time you think have to be better than right now.


If you unironically think I didn't have better social experience back then than I do now you're either trying to gaslight me or.. I don't know? Imply I'm fibbing? What really is this argument? Another variant of "You think you do, but you don't!"? Vanilla was an objectively better social experience because that is literally how the game was mechanically designed to be from the ground up.

It's even that way on private servers which are toxic now but weren't always. There's way more player interaction than there is in live. In live I can literally max and gear up with out ever having to speak to someone outside of guild raiding. There's a reason Nostalrius resonated with so many people and I'm one of them.
10/11/2018 19:25Posted by Meibhín
10/11/2018 19:11Posted by Luminnar
pvp? unbalanced. heavily imbalanced actually as there was no class balancing philosophy and most specs were downright broken. no arenas, only normal bg's, low competition for skilled players. boring to even start talking about. professions? easier to level than in TBC. what else is there? pls help me, since obviously i can only write about raiding and pve on top of being a pvp player xd


We take pleasure in different things that's kind of the point Grupp was making, the old game was about player engagement and socialization whether as later expansions homogenize the classes and focus entirely on efficiency at the expensive of player engagement. Classes in vanilla were built from the design philosophy of roles - like in DnD - the focus was being as different from each other as they possibly could and in tune with their class fantasy. The function was less a single specs competitive nature but the role of the class as a whole, paladin's were support and that is where they excelled and so on. MMORPG.

For example I don't enjoy chasing a bear druid around a pillar for hours in a small box until we eventually time out - but then I wouldn't be rude about it like you are or generalize as if that was the entire PVP experience. TM/SS, WPVP, sporadic warzones and groups of players fighting over patches of ground are more interesting to me because I enjoy the SOCIAL experience over hyper competitive arena comps.

the dude QUOTES me based on how i only brought up pve and raids into my reasoning as to why classic isn't challenging, to which i reply with why i didn't bring up anything else. moments later, i get quoted again saying that i'm generalizing everything and that you enjoy social experiences over hyper competitive ones. seriously, what is wrong with you guys? personally, i don't care about what group of people enjoys what content. i'm not judging you or will i ever tell you that you're wrong or that you should stop doing something you enjoy. to each their own. some people like leveling (like me), some like 1v1s, 2v2s and wpvp (also like me), some like raiding, some like dungeons (also like me), some people like massive brawls and some like to afk (also like me). there are exceptions to what i said about what i like, but generally that's about how it is. the topic of this entire thread is that classic is hard for casuals - with which i only partially agree, due to farming and obtaining a whole lot of frustrating things and praying to RNG gods that you don't get bent over and f...d by some rogue or priest that's specifically aiming to ruin your RAIDING experience. nothing to talk about in pvp, as that was a grind fest and not a skill test. leveling is the same as it was in TBC (time-wise) with the exception of a better addon being introduced in TBC, so it was better on that part.

10/11/2018 19:18Posted by Nuckchorris
10/11/2018 19:11Posted by Luminnar
professions? easier to level than in TBC.


Was there anything harder than vanilla fishing?

fishing mechanics were exactly the same in TBC as they were in vanilla and fishing was actually required for a certain raid to summon a certain boss that. and again, i wouldn't use the term hard, but time consuming.
10/11/2018 11:34Posted by Recollector
Classic was hard for casuals



WHO CARES ABOUT CASUALS play BFA then
10/11/2018 19:49Posted by Luminnar


10/11/2018 19:18Posted by Nuckchorris
...

Was there anything harder than vanilla fishing?

fishing mechanics were exactly the same in TBC as they were in vanilla and fishing was actually required for a certain raid to summon a certain boss that. and again, i wouldn't use the term hard, but time consuming.


I was reffering to quest required to progress in fishing. And there was fishing-required boss even in vanilla. Also there was much more traveling required and "finding" right zones/waters to progress. Were u even there, or are you judging it by current state?
None of these 2 games are hard.

Both have a level of tedium which players mistaken or want to establish as 'hard', for personal fame.

Vanilla = spend a massive amount of time to farm gear, enchants, crafts and consumables to make your character stat-wise ready for the bosses. (vanilla has no mechanics apart of some in naxx, it's just a massive gear and readiness check like all oldschool RPGs.

Retail = spend a massive amount of time to train a grand choreography through trial and error which you are copying from guide videos and with the help of ingame notification addons. After you got the choreography down you can kill the boss 100% of the time doing the same planned thing. As thus it's not hard because there is no level of adaption or improvisation necessary. Bosses would need to have a real A.I., not pre-planned scripts that execute the same 100% of the time.

Even in PvP, your opponents actions and reactions are pretty predictable.

WoW can't be hard by that definition, purely through game design, it's impossible. It can only be tedious in different aspects. It's just that Blizzard tried to introduce difficulty through elements from action games, which doesn't work. Because it just shifts the tedium from one aspect to the other.

WoW was meant to be a RPG sandbox world to enjoy for everyone without too much weight on competitivity. Honestly, if you want to show off how good you are find another genre like RTS because WoW is not the place.
What this with classes being the same in retail? I can’t think of one who’s playing in the same way , while In classic most classes only used one button

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum