Loot trading is fine

Classic Discussion
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Is this a joke? If he dont need the items why would he join the run? If he join to help his friend out, why should he care about the loot?

There is only one possible reason why he would need the items, and that is so he can ninja them to his friend. Nobody is being "punished".


Either answer the arguments or don't bother. I'm not interested in some flimsy discussion where we jump here and there.


If you dont want people to reply to something you type, then dont type it.

You basically said that because player X has a friend who dont need gear, and that friend is willing to help out in the dungeon, player X deserve to have double the chance of gear.

Thats ninjalooting plain and simple. If you have a geared friend who wants to help out thats nice, but it dont give you any more right to the gear than someone who did not have a friend who wanted to come help.
Sorry but loot trading is bad, the convenience at which a group of players can co-ordinate an effort roll on all loot and trade between each other is too much and it massively changes how the gameplay experience plays out in Vanilla.

When loot trading first got added people now had something to gain by needing on stuff they couldn't use, by needing on items to then sell it back to someone in the group for gold, that wouldn't be convenient without loot trading so it would only ever happen out of pure malice.

This isn't one of the small changes that has a small effect, it's one of the biggest changes you could put in. For the right reasons it absolutely works but the benefit is something that helps out in the more unlikely situation of a looting mistake, compared to the more likely situation of mass needing to trade between friends or ransoming loot off for gold.
Back in WOTLK as a protadin I ran Naxxramas like 40 times for Last Laugh, and when it finally dropped from KT for the first time and I got the highest roll the leader just gave it to one of his friends instead.

So with loot-trading I wont just be seeing this behavior in pugs with masterlooters, but in dungeons as well? Great !@#$ing idea Blizzard.
Loot trading is only good for ninja's.
Taxation are you paid to post your "posts"? You are stomach churning.
11/11/2018 17:22Posted by Allucard
Taxation are you paid to post your "posts"? You are stomach churning.


Who knows? But seeing as Blizzard hired actors to ask them the questions they wanted during their Q&A session at Blizzcon, I wouldn't hold it past them to have a team of professional shills defending any decision the classic team does.
11/11/2018 17:03Posted by Flexidia
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Either answer the arguments or don't bother. I'm not interested in some flimsy discussion where we jump here and there.


If you dont want people to reply to something you type, then dont type it.

I'm saying if you can't be bothered meeting my arguments and instead creating your own arguments I won't continue arguing.

You basically said that because player X has a friend who dont need gear, and that friend is willing to help out in the dungeon, player X deserve to have double the chance of gear.

No, I'm saying thinking like that is stupid.

Pretend you're a warlock. You join a group with warrior, rogue, priest and mage for a Stratholme run. If you accept this group then what do you care if the mage is overgeared and will pass on loot to his priest friend? You've already accepted that you're probably rolling against two other players.

Also, say you knew these guys were friends and you argued with them and the mage said "whatever" and left. A new mage joins the group with really crappy gear. What have you accomplished? The old mage would've carried the group a lot more and only needed on stuff the priest wanted, now you've got a new mage who will need on everything effectiuvely reducing your overall loot chances.

But this is the second time I write this argument, which takes us back to my initial response: either respond to my arguments by showing how they're not applicable or have some logic flaw or don't bother.
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If you dont want people to reply to something you type, then dont type it.

I'm saying if you can't be bothered meeting my arguments and instead creating your own arguments I won't continue arguing.

You basically said that because player X has a friend who dont need gear, and that friend is willing to help out in the dungeon, player X deserve to have double the chance of gear.

No, I'm saying thinking like that is stupid.

Pretend you're a warlock. You join a group with warrior, rogue, priest and mage for a Stratholme run. If you accept this group then what do you care if the mage is overgeared and will pass on loot to his priest friend? You've already accepted that you're probably rolling against two other players.

Also, say you knew these guys were friends and you argued with them and the mage said "whatever" and left. A new mage joins the group with really crappy gear. What have you accomplished? The old mage would've carried the group a lot more and only needed on stuff the priest wanted, now you've got a new mage who will need on everything effectiuvely reducing your overall loot chances.

But this is the second time I write this argument, which takes us back to my initial response: either respond to my arguments by showing how they're not applicable or have some logic flaw or don't bother.


The logic is flawed, I'll demonstrate. In this scenario the warrior could have funneled loot as well. There's no limits on what you can roll on in vanilla WoW.

Consider this scenario, a warlock joins a group with a mage, hunter, druid and warrior. First boss, a +spell dmg ring drops, EVERYONE rolls on it, warrior wins and trades it to his buddy the mage. Now you(warlock) is rolling against 4 players where you'd expect to roll against one. This is a massive change compared to how loot in Vanilla worked and is supposed to work.

The fact that you think the lack of needing an item makes you deserve to redistribute that loot as you wish is your opinion, but a lot of people don't share that opinion. It's also not an opinion which manifested in Vanilla WoW and hence it shouldn't in Classic.

That said, there are ways to modify loot-trading in a way which inhibits this abuse. For example only being able to trade loot to the second highest roller.
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I'm saying i...er.


The logic is flawed, I'll demonstrate. In this scenario the warrior could have funneled loot as well. There's no limits on what you can roll on in vanilla WoW.

Ok, but that is ninjaing. That exists with or without loot sharing. You can of course argue that this change promotes ninjaing in which case you do have a point. If it becomes standard practice to roll for your buddy it will really taint the game.

The road there will be long though. It's standard practice to out ninjas, kick or just leave the group when someone steps out of line. Not everyone will be tough enough to roll for a friend if that means they will get exposed as a ninja.

Consider this scenario, a warlock joins a group with a mage, hunter, druid and warrior. First boss, a +spell dmg ring drops, EVERYONE rolls on it, warrior wins and trades it to his buddy the mage. Now you(warlock) is rolling against 4 players where you'd expect to roll against one. This is a massive change compared to how loot in Vanilla worked and is supposed to work.

Yeah, but I dealt with that scenario earlier. The 4 friends are idiots. They give you a chance to roll on loot when they can just put master loot on. It's not a believable scenario.

The fact that you think the lack of needing an item makes you deserve to redistribute that loot as you wish is your opinion, but a lot of people don't share that opinion. It's also not an opinion which manifested in Vanilla WoW and hence it shouldn't in Classic.

My position is that I really don't care, but the arguments both sides are putting forward are silly arguments with non existant scenarios. It's not a big deal and it won't change a lot.

That said, there are ways to modify loot-trading in a way which inhibits this abuse. For example only being able to trade loot to the second highest roller.

Have you seen/played the demo? They have so much work left to do. To ask them to code something new when they're already behind is silly. And what happened to your argument of "it wasn't in Vanilla?".
Most of you are admitting that you're gonna utilize loot trading to !@#$ over other people. I only associate with people that wouldn't do that, so I probably would never group up with any of you.

If I decide to group up with a random and he %^-*s me over, it will only be a blue item anyway, a small price to pay for the knowledge of his degeneracy.

If any of my guildmates !@#$ me over and they're not kicked out of the guild, I find a new guild. If there are no guilds I can join that wouldn't %^-* me over, then I stop playing the game. If all that happens, loot trading is the least of my problems.
Lots of things going on in this thread, most of which I do not agree on.

Funnily enough however, I agree with the OP - although for different reasons.

Loot trading does not enable ninja looting in any significant way, the scenario everyone depicts where "friends" are rolling need on items they don't to pass it to a friend is ludicrous.

That is the fastest possible way to be labelled an !@#$%^- and a ninja and have a really hard time in the game.

Loot etiquette in vanilla is pretty simple: you only roll need on stuff you really need, not stuff "it would be cool to have".

Critical loot matters would be discussed ahead of the run anyway.

So ye, loot trading is fine by me.
11/11/2018 12:07Posted by Bumkin
Your arguments have been done before in differeny threads and they've fallen short. Making a new thread with the same bad arguments contributes nothing.


+1.

NO loot trading. No sharding. #NoChanges.
11/11/2018 12:14Posted by Bumkin

It was almost never done.


Got a link to the offical stats?
12/11/2018 23:28Posted by Monkehh
Most of you are admitting that you're gonna utilize loot trading to !@#$ over other people. I only associate with people that wouldn't do that, so I probably would never group up with any of you.

If I decide to group up with a random and he %^-*s me over, it will only be a blue item anyway, a small price to pay for the knowledge of his degeneracy.

If any of my guildmates !@#$ me over and they're not kicked out of the guild, I find a new guild. If there are no guilds I can join that wouldn't %^-* me over, then I stop playing the game. If all that happens, loot trading is the least of my problems.


Well that's sort of ironical, though.

If all of that happens, then loot trading should be your first concern since the reasons of all of that happening is with loot trading.

You're saying loot trading is fine, then proceed to say that if people abuse it, then you might end up stop playing the game and loot trading would be the least of your problems, while in reality it's exactly what made you stop playing the game.
It should be very clear at this point that loot trading should never be implemented on classic servers. It has no place there it's bad for the community and most importantly it is not authentic to classic.

Blizzard you claimed you want to make the game authentic, please go ahead and do so.
13/11/2018 07:32Posted by Keala
12/11/2018 23:28Posted by Monkehh
Most of you are admitting that you're gonna utilize loot trading to !@#$ over other people. I only associate with people that wouldn't do that, so I probably would never group up with any of you.

If I decide to group up with a random and he %^-*s me over, it will only be a blue item anyway, a small price to pay for the knowledge of his degeneracy.

If any of my guildmates !@#$ me over and they're not kicked out of the guild, I find a new guild. If there are no guilds I can join that wouldn't %^-* me over, then I stop playing the game. If all that happens, loot trading is the least of my problems.


Well that's sort of ironical, though.

If all of that happens, then loot trading should be your first concern since the reasons of all of that happening is with loot trading.

You're saying loot trading is fine, then proceed to say that if people abuse it, then you might end up stop playing the game and loot trading would be the least of your problems, while in reality it's exactly what made you stop playing the game.


If the lack of loot trading were the only thing stopping people from being degenerates, then I would agree with you.

If that were the case, then I welcome loot trading, if only to show me the degeneracy inherent in people like yourself, so I can avoid it.

I don't play this game because of the insatiable lust for blue and purple items, I play it to strengthen the bonds between my brothers in arms, to take down creatures insurmountable for an isolated weakling like myself. It's only with the strength of many that I can accomplish greatness.
interesting arguments on both sides of the story.
I suggest to not allow it nor GM involvement. Need what you need, greed the rest.
If you misclicked, yeah, bad stuff happens now and then, at least it wasn't done from an abusing context and the person making the mistake has made himself a little less popular.
Just my opinion though.
"Loot trading is fine."
No.
Why do you always look at the bad side of things. Ninjas will be always ninja. I assume with loot trading they will also implement other loot rules in Retail such as needing loot you can use or BoE items turning into BoP when you need roll them.
Most of you haven’t been around from the begining of loot trading when it was first implemented at wow. At first there were ninjas that would need everything and trade it to their friends. The system has changed now and it works.
Central argument of OP has merit, in that you need friends in Classic to accomplish things. Normally you expect to get something out of it, and that's what guilds are for. In guilds, if you get the item, you get the item fair and square. You're expected to let other people in your guild get gear too, when they need it. They don't forget that you got loot.

However, in pick-up groups you don't have any such considerations. You get a much higher chance to get that particular piece of gear. Meanwhile, the non-friend pug player who contributes to that run, was expecting to roll on a 20%-20%-0%-0%-0% roll against you for that plate item, since the other 3 players are cloth/leather/mail wearers. In other words 50%-50%.

But much to his/her surprise, since you have friends, suddenly that chance becomes 20-80%. Do I need to go on? In which one of your imaginations is that fair?

And it's not that the pugger can call the 4 of you out afterwards, because:
- it's quite difficult to call out 4 people on World? chat, you typically get 4 replies mocking you;
- how can you blame friends to help each other out? Other players will chime in and call you an idiot as well.

So what this means, is that you will get less people joining pugs. You will get less pug groups forming, especially 5-mans but to an extent 20-mans as well. A large part of the Classic WoW community will be *lost*.

All thanks to Loot Trading. Your friends argument leads to isolated pockets of pre-existing friends, while new friends are less likely to be formed. It's a bad idea.

To save Customer Support time, only allow trading of loot back to a Master Looter and by a Master Looter, in a 40-man raid only, for 2 hours. That's where mistakes are painful, and a lot less open to the pug-argument. I hope pug MC's will still be organized.

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