the Alliance Tyranny.

Story
Forgive the bait title, but the following will hopefully be a discussion about how the Alliance could be considered Tyrants by those not within their Faction that do not posses Meta Knowledge of the Players.

So, for now let us take the wowpedia description of the Alliance as a whole.

Humans, night elves, dwarves, gnomes, draenei, and the savage worgen make up the illustrious Alliance. Proud and noble, courageous and wise, these races work together to preserve order in Azeroth. The Alliance is driven by honor and tradition. Its rulers are champions of justice, hope, knowledge, and faith.
In a time when chaos and uncertainty reign, the Alliance remains steadfast in its determination to bring light to the darkest corners of the world.[1]


Now at first glance this likely makes people think, How would anyone find these with Tyranny.
But then we also have to consider a few things with the Alliance as a whole.
Justice and Faith.
are likely the two elements that could be viewed as Tyrannical by others.

Now first let us take Justice, what is Justice exactly as a whole?
is it always a force of good, or is it honestly just something said out when performing dark deeds to make it seem more heroic from a kind of we are honest twisted point of view.

Next we've faith.
Religion can always be a strong factor for Tyranny in itself as history shows.

Now one prime example of Alliance ''Tyranny''
is probably going to be the upcoming Raid Siege of Dazar'alor.
the Alliance moves their armies to attack this place, to make the Zandalari not commit to the Horde.
I mean really? Anyone would know that attacking those you seek to drive away, will more than likely direct them over to those you try to prevent it off.

Then again we do live in an Azerothian time where people thinks Might makes Right.

Another is probably in the past of the humans, most of their Kingdoms were basically ground they took from inhabitants already there.

Stormwind was build upon Gnoll Grounds.
Quel'thalas upon Troll land. (Yes we count Quel'thalas into this as it used to be a Kingdom of Team A)
Kul'tirans build upon stolen Drust Land.

Another factor we can throw in is possibly the passive racism of the Alliance in the past, They've had a tendency to kill things that does not look human enough before and then later coming to the realization such was a bad idea.

Many races not appearing human enough or sharing their ground ideals has met the swift -Alliance Justice-

In overall the Alliance Union could be from an outside perspective be seen as Tyrannical in some regard due to their past and clear present methods of making -peace-

Spoilers Read no Further unless you do not care.

the Alliance murders the Troll King of the Zandalari sealing the loyalty to the Horde completely, as well as granting the Zandalari a true reason to fight them now.

Now the following post is still simple enough how would races outside of the Alliance view them, and what would lead to possibly finding them Tyrannical upon a world scale in the eyes of outsiders?
Now do remember that these races do not have the Meta Knowledge of us players and can only judge the Alliance upon their military actions, and first hand impressions towards different species.
15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
Now one prime example of Alliance ''Tyranny''
is probably going to be the upcoming Raid Siege of Dazar'alor.
the Alliance moves their armies to attack this place, to make the Zandalari not commit to the Horde.
I mean really? Anyone would know that attacking those you seek to drive away, will more than likely direct them over to those you try to prevent it off.


That was Justice.

Do you just conveniently forget this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umQW4Jlmlks

You burned Stormwind's fleet. What did you expect?
15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
Stormwind was build upon Gnoll Grounds.


All land is Gnoll Land! And thus, a new meme was born.
Rather than a tiranny I would rather call them a human egemony/empire masked as an Alliance...like, not just Anduin, but generally the leadership that matters for the decisions is always just Human (as showed by Blizzard several times) and if other races like Night Elves try to take other decisions they are often mocked for it (Tyrande in a little patience) or ignored/denied their human help (like Tyrande in Darkshore). Which is the reason the Dwarves are treated waaaaay better in lore (although usually they are just mostly ignored) than Night Elves, because the Dwarves accepted the superiority and egemony of the Humans over themselves since at least the end of the Second War when they were saved by them. So since unlike Night Elves, Dwarves usually accept Humans' decisions without much concern or opposition, they are treated better by the devs.

Also being a tiranny is not inherently bad for a nation/faction...I would rather prefer an effective and fair tiranny that keeps people under strict control but also cares for them like Silvermoon in TBC over a corrupted monarchy or democracy for example. As long as a fascist government doesn't go full N@zi it isn't inherently bad if it has truly at heart the well being of the nation and their people. It's also better to keep people more closely under control in a world like Azeroth where everything can go to hell at any time
15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
are likely the two elements that could be viewed as Tyrannical by others.


- Don't Orcs/Tauren/Trolls have Faith in the Elements?
- Don't Forsaken have Faith in Sylvanas?
- Don't Blood Elves have Faith in the Sunwell?
- Don't Goblin have Faith in Money?

How is Faith unique to the Alliance?

As for Justice, It should be obvious that the Horde also adopts a system of ethics from which derives a certain sense of justice.
15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
the Alliance moves their armies to attack this place, to make the Zandalari not commit to the Horde.
I mean really? Anyone would know that attacking those you seek to drive away, will more than likely direct them over to those you try to prevent it off.


Oh, then why are you not complaining about Sylvanas adopting the same exact strategy against the Alliance at Darnassus?

15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
where people thinks Might makes Right.


The Horde being the prime example of this.

15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
Stormwind was build upon Gnoll Grounds.


Wrong, Stormwind was built upon a fertile valley which wasn't stated to be inhabited by anyone when the Arathi bloodline got there.

15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
Quel'thalas upon Troll land. (Yes we count Quel'thalas into this as it used to be a Kingdom of Team A)


Then I guess that the Nightborne are still members of the Legion. In which case, the Horde is evil.

15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
Kul'tirans build upon stolen Drust Land.


First of all, Only the Waycrests ever interacted with the Drust. Boralus certainly isn't built on "stolen" Drust land.

Secondly, nowhere is it stated that Waycrest Manor, Fallhaven, Corlain and the likes are built on stolen Drust land, only that the Drust would tolerate no neighbour. The Waycrests even tried to maintain peace with the Drust.

Basically, the natives struck first. Not the colonies. AND THERE IS A REASON WHY MANY DRUST TURNED AGAINST THEIR OWN KIND AND SIDED WITH THE WAYCRESTS.

Also, Orgrimmar is built upon stolen Quilboar land.

15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
They've had a tendency to kill things that does not look human enough before


Even Garithos never outright committed genocide of non-Humans.

I do recall Sylvanas stating that the Humans were an "infestation" back in Classic and sending her Dreadlord pets to deal with them in Southshore. And in Cataclysm, condoning the construction of a giant death camp for Humans (because there is no way that she didn't know that such a massive compound was being built so close to Lordaeron).

15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
the Alliance murders the Troll King of the Zandalari sealing the loyalty to the Horde completely, as well as granting the Zandalari a true reason to fight them now.


And how many Alliance men died when Zul invaded the world because the foolish Rastakhan failed to put a leash on his dog?

Now do remember that these races do not have the Meta Knowledge of us players and can only judge the Alliance upon their military actions, and first hand impressions towards different species.

The Alliance welcomes both Void Elves and Lightforged, that makes them tolerant of any creed.

The Horde should shut their mouths about how bad and evil Alliance's Justice is when Sylvanas thinks that it would be justice to kill every last man, woman and child in Stormwind and raise them as Undead.

The Horde should realize that the Alliance spared their miserable kin twice already.

Basically, Nathanos and the likes need to get off their high horse.

All land is Gnoll Land! And thus, a new meme was born.


But what's the point? In the end, All Land is Light's Land. Which is why Yrel did nothing wrong. Light Vult!

The Horde fanbase of this forum is so funny.
15/11/2018 06:24Posted by Arctur
The Horde fanbase of this forum is so funny.
Hey, they just wanna feel better, because their own faction only does a lot of crap. "BuT CaMp TaUrAjO" ;)
So... you can see the Alliance depicted in the game/books as tyrannical... if you're parnoid, don't care for context and ignore the same things within the Horde. Okay.
15/11/2018 06:59Posted by Wimbert
So... you can see the Alliance depicted in the game/books as tyrannical... if you're parnoid, don't care for context and ignore the same things within the Horde. Okay.

pretty much this..

I wish it was actually true tho... Would make the Alliance way more interesting IMO.
- Don't Orcs/Tauren/Trolls have Faith in the Elements?


Ermm, I see where you were going with that, but no. Only Orcs could be considered to have faith in the Elements, but that is more by proxy, they don't worship them. Tauren revere their Ancestors and the Earth Mother, and also An'she and Mu'cha, and Trolls kind of massively famously have faith in the various Loa, dependent upon tribe.

So...No.

- Don't Forsaken have Faith in Sylvanas?


If you mean faith with a capital 'F' as in religious worship, then err. No.

- Don't Blood Elves have Faith in the Sunwell?


Still No. They don't worship the Sunwell. They don't worship the Sun even, these are important things, but the State Religion of Quel'thalas remains that of the Holy Light.

Don't Goblin have Faith in Money?


Ermm...No? I mean they are venal and greedy and like accumulating wealth, but they don't actually have religious faith in it.

So pretty much a Swing and a Miss with every question there.

The rest of your answers were basically classic examples of 'Whataboutism', OP says "The Alliance seems to have done X" and your response is "Ah, but the Horde did Y! And that's Worse!"

Either have the courtesy to answer the OP's points whilst keeping on topic, or if not, have the decency to just not bother. This isn't about the Horde, whatever wickedness and bad actions the Horde has done (And there are -Many-) That isn't what is being discussed here. Stop trying to turn a discussion about the Alliance and how some of its actions could be perceived as dubious into "But the Horde is worse, The Horde is Evil!" There are plenty of threads on that topic already.

15/11/2018 06:24Posted by Arctur
The Horde fanbase of this forum is so funny.


I really don't think, of all people, that you are in a position to decry others over their fervour.

Anyway, before we get massively off topic with people getting upset that the Alliance are being discussed in anything other than glowing terms....

I don't really see how the Alliance could be viewed as a Tyranny, or rather I can, but it really does depend on perspective. I mean you could make an argument that they are Imperialistic, but that is not necessarily a -bad- thing, depending on how they go about it. (Not just saying that because I am a Brit, honest). They're certainly not aggressively expansionist, unlike some races of the Horde. Hmm, well, alright, unlike Orcs and Forsaken.

Just about every neutral race or culture we meet, that is on friendly terms, seem to regard both Horde and Alliance with an 'Innocent until you mess with us' policy. Now I am certainly not naive enough to think that this means both Factions have the same reputation on the world stage, however I certainly don't think this is because they fear the Alliance. Well, alright, in most cases it isn't. I think it is more "Oh Crap, one of the big world powers has noticed us, if we side with one, the other will start gunning for us, and nobody here needs that, we don't want to be dragged into their silly war", and as such they try to placate both sides, whilst committing to neither. The Tuskarr are actually a very good example of this, we see in Dragonblight that both Horde and Alliance have sent an envoy to talk to the chieftain there, and it is frankly doing his nut in. He wants none of it.

Now this isn't because he thinks that both Horde and Alliance have the same moral standing, no, its probably because he knows the damage it will do to his people if he sides with one, over the other.

Another example would be the Pandaren, (Apart from those Tushui and Huojin who picked a side), but there, even more interestingly, Taran Zhu actually refers to the two factions warring as a 'Race War' Now that is quite an interesting turn of phrase, with some worrying connotations, certainly some that are disturbing to our 21st century morality. Is the Horde Racist? Is the Alliance Racist? Lets be fair, in both cases the answer is pretty much 'Yes'.

Now let me clarify what I mean by that, before people get indignant. It doesn't mean that the individual member of the Horde or Alliance is a racist bigot. They might be, but it doesn't mean they all are as individual people.

I mean it is pretty undeniable that the Faction divide is defined by the different Races (I know the correct term would be 'Species' but we'll go with Blizzards terminology) Now you get exceptions, Anduin seems fair and will talk with anyone, likewise Thrall. In many cases the actual reason the Factions fight is as simple as 'X is a (whatever race) therefore my enemy'. The waters are further muddied there by people like the Humans and Blood Elves, who both have the same Faith, not different versions of it, but the exact same faith, but are on opposing factions, so we can't even say it is a Religious War.

Going back to the Alliance as a Tyranny however, a definition of Tyranny is 'Cruel and Oppressive Government or Rule'

That just does not sound like the Alliance. Remember, a Tyranny applies to the people in your own body politic, not those outside it. You cannot be a Tyrant to someone who is not under your rule. Now the Alliance has varying government systems, from the Theocracies of the Kaldorei and Draenei, Monarchies of Stormwind and Gilneas, the Senate of Ironforge, and Azeroth's only Democracy of Gnomeregan, Over all of these, there is a High King, an Absolute Monarch, currently Anduin.

So the question there is, are those forms of government Tyrannies? Now Theocracies absolutely -can- be Tyrannies, we see enough examples of that in our world sadly, but neither Tyrande or Velen seems like a Tyrant. A Monarchy can be Tyrannical, but neither Genn, and certainly not Anduin, seem like a Tyrant. A Senate can be a Tyranny, though has more checks and balances on it, however no matter how bolshy Moira is, the Three Hammers seem to rule their people fairly. A Democracy is the format of Government with the least chance of being a Tyranny, and Gelbin Mekkatorque loves his people, a Cruel and Oppressive ruler he is not.

So we come to the overall ruler. Anduin Wrynn.

There is absolutely nothing about his character that makes him seem like a Tyrant, absolutely nothing. He is compassionate, reasonable, and pretty much just a 'Good Person', willing to reach out even to his enemies.

Essentially, is the Alliance a monolithic power that -could- be seen as threatening to those outside of it? Yes. Is it a Tyranny?

Emphatically not.
15/11/2018 11:54Posted by Brigante
Still No. They don't worship the Sunwell. They don't worship the Sun even, these are important things, but the State Religion of Quel'thalas remains that of the Holy Light.


Generally no, but in Chronicles it's stated the Blood Knights now ask for a blessing to the Sunwell for using their powers, and that could be counted as worship, or at least reverence. So at least some elements among the Blood Elves do put faith into the Sunwell in a religious way.

Wrong, Stormwind was built upon a fertile valley which wasn't stated to be inhabited by anyone when the Arathi bloodline got there.


It wasn't a desert though...the mongrel races were still there and they count (Gnolls, Kobolds, Murlocs, possibly Gurubashi Trolls in the southern regions of Duskwood...). In this sense Humans taking over Stormwind for the first time are no better than Orcs taking over Durotar, in a sense. Sorry but everyone was always there before of you, this is valid for all races.
15/11/2018 13:08Posted by Sylvianna
Generally no, but in Chronicles it's stated the Blood Knights now ask for a blessing to the Sunwell for using their powers, and that could be counted as worship, or at least reverence.


I think that is more their awareness that Mu'ru died for their Sins, kind of thing. It is reverence, certainly, but not worship. The Sunwell is the channel of faith, not the object of faith. I suppose a similar parallel in our world would be that Christians do not worship Jesus, they worship God, Jesus is the channel of faith. Jesus is obviously massively important to them, but they don't worship him.
I sense a great deal of desperation in this thread.
15/11/2018 00:19Posted by Thalasdin
15/11/2018 00:10Posted by Durlan
Now one prime example of Alliance ''Tyranny''
is probably going to be the upcoming Raid Siege of Dazar'alor.
the Alliance moves their armies to attack this place, to make the Zandalari not commit to the Horde.
I mean really? Anyone would know that attacking those you seek to drive away, will more than likely direct them over to those you try to prevent it off.


That was Justice.

Do you just conveniently forget this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umQW4Jlmlks

You burned Stormwind's fleet. What did you expect?


You tried to kill Zandalari Princess,heir to the Throne of Zandalar. That is enough to send entire fleet to the bottom of the sea.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nHQfH56TAWU

For a reminder: Varian tried to kill Moira for kidnapping his son. Talanji was not only captured and thrown to dungeon but on her attempt to return home Alliance was firing her ship in order to sink and and kill her.

Zandalari did the right thing.
I think the Alliance were more bothered and annoyed about Horde (Nathanos, Rokhan, Skyhorm and Thallysra) BREAKING in to Stormwind, into the stockades, freeing prisoners and then burning the city (admittedly Zuls doing) than killing the zandalari princess.
15/11/2018 14:14Posted by Zakkaru
You tried to kill Zandalari Princess,heir to the Throne of Zandalar. That is enough to send entire fleet to the bottom of the sea.


How come you like the Zandalari so much when they are ruled by a monarchy just like the Humans? I thought you dislike the human elements for the troll race and you are more for the #savage and #primal side of the Trolls like Darkspears or even Amani...

but now that you have seen Zandalar, being civilized and living in a monarchy is not that bad huh? :)
15/11/2018 14:34Posted by Sylvianna
15/11/2018 14:14Posted by Zakkaru
You tried to kill Zandalari Princess,heir to the Throne of Zandalar. That is enough to send entire fleet to the bottom of the sea.


How come you like the Zandalari so much when they are ruled by a monarchy just like the Humans? I thought you dislike the human elements for the troll race and you are more for the #savage and #primal side of the Trolls like Darkspears or even Amani...

but now that you have seen Zandalar, being civilized and living in a monarchy is not that bad huh? :)


How are Darkspear and Amani leaders chosen?
How are Darkspear and Amani leaders chosen?


Zarao or Zakkaru should answer you that, but I believe that trolls with the "Jin" suffix are usually picked in this case as revered and powerful chieftain of the tribe, or for a strong warlord leader. So it's not a monarchy but there could still some hereditary elements to it.

Like Sen'jin >>>Vol'jin

Or Zul'jin >>> Kazra'jin
15/11/2018 15:16Posted by Sylvianna
How are Darkspear and Amani leaders chosen?


Zarao or Zakkaru should answer you that, but I believe that trolls with the "Jin" suffix are usually picked in this case as revered and powerful chieftain of the tribe, or for a strong warlord leader. So it's not a monarchy but there could still some hereditary elements to it.

Like Sen'jin >>>Vol'jin

Or Zul'jin >>> Kazra'jin


Was wondering thank you. Doesn’t Jin mean “great” in the troll language or something similar?

I half expect the Amani leadership to be chosen through fighting and whoever wins becomes leader and people can challenge you.

Just as they are the more savage/primal of the lot in my eyes. But hey this is just my idea based on what I know so I’m pobsbly incorrect.

*summons Zarao and Zakkaru*
15/11/2018 11:54Posted by Brigante
If you mean faith with a capital 'F' as in religious worship, then err. No.


Well... if we look at their society and what they say it resemble a huge cult and sylvanas as their object of worship. Like a fleshmade goddess. So not sure about that one
15/11/2018 15:16Posted by Sylvianna
Zarao or Zakkaru should answer you that, but I believe that trolls with the "Jin" suffix are usually picked in this case as revered and powerful chieftain of the tribe, or for a strong warlord leader. So it's not a monarchy but there could still some hereditary elements to it.


The "Jin" suffix is probably either added to the existing name of someone who has become a leader, or coined into the name of someone who is expected to become a leader. We see it way too often.

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