Pet Peeve #36: The Peeve is Always Right

Argent Dawn
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06/11/2018 23:06Posted by Chíeun
Enhanced strength is something Chi has been able to do (see cleaving stone blocks, etc) to a far greater degree than compensating for being a lumbering behemoth


basically anime powers
06/11/2018 23:08Posted by Rangoor
Yet both have been shown just fine in game so you are clearly wrong there.


Give examples. Examples other than 'tauren can be monks' because that is the very thing I am arguing shouldn't be.

Monk agility in general is not superior to that of the rogue, who does fine without chi.
06/11/2018 23:12Posted by Chíeun
Give examples. Examples other than 'tauren can be monks' because that is the very thing I am arguing shouldn't be.

Monk agility in general is not superior to that of the rogue, who does fine without chi.


See my last post. If monks only had one style focused purely on agility, you would have half a point.
06/11/2018 20:17Posted by Chíeun
Definitely not tauren - they are physically extremely poorly suited for it.


What gives you that impression?

I mean, for a start pandaren, the OG monks, have some hella stubby limbs. Also gnomes. If you're going to bring physical abilities and aspects into it why include the race that is the most physically stunted by far (Save perhaps goblins) just because they're "open minded"? Gnomes are arguably the least agile and least strong race in the setting by comparison, while tauren have far longer limbs that wouldn't impede them at all.

Tauren aren't particularly clumsy or slow either. They literally have rogues (As NPCs, energy and all in Stonetalon, just not playable for whatever reason), they're a race of primarily hunters (Whose main stat last I checked was agility?) and speaking in terms of biology and physics, bigger size does NOT in fact impede your speed or agility. That's a myth. Rugy players, wrestlers etc are insanely buff but pull off remarkable feats of agility and speed anyway. A two second google gives a pile of sources stating that "bigger muscles = faster" in the majority of cases. Bigger muscle=more force applied=more speed. You can make an argument perhaps that other races are -more- agile than tauren, but that doens't mean they couldn't make ideal brewmasters in ox style at the least (Or you can say that your own tauren monk is far leaner than the in-game model implies if you want to go that route).

Especially when monks are typically all about redirecting or absorbing hits more than anime dodging them all (iirc monks don't even have a DODGE ability, just absorptions or damage reduction, right?), and tauren are THE tank race and would be ideal for that approach to fighting.

And we have both mentioned, it's literally confirmed that shaman and monks share a similar source of magic. And tauren being shaman would mean they're fairly likely to be at least curious in how a monk does things spiritually. They may even find kinship or familiarity with monk teachings.

Even physical stuff aside? I'm willing to chalk up any physical obstacles as 'literally magic'! Because 90% of monk abilities have a visible magical effect that extends past the hand or leg. For gnomes? Monk abilities could extend their reach via magical attacks. For tauren? Chi perhaps lets them perform the exceedingly nimble feats monks are known for. Chi seems to be an equaliser of sorts in that regard. You say it would 'look silly' for a tauren to do a spin? I say it'd look equally absurd for a gnome to leap into the air and kick a mountain in half. Yet here we are. Chi lets races do extraordinary things they would not otherwise be capable of, evidently.

As I said before, I fully agree that many of the ARs shouldn't be monks (I can only see it being feasible for HMT, the rest? Not so much). But of the core races? I can't really think of a reason why any of them would be excluded, except perhaps draenei, if we go by the "Have they had feasible contact with pandaren before?" rule (Which Blizzard has broken in half with ARs to the point where even I think it's a bit stupid). This is all of course speaking from a post-"everyone is a monk" world perspective. If they were pandaren only originally and it was explicitly their entire thing? Wouldn't even be arguing for more monks.

I only want 'more' for specifically two races who basically missed out because of an iffy excuse that has since been made totally invalid. Hell it was invalid from the get go thanks to draenei who LITERALLY JUST CRASH LANDED but could be pandaren-style monks anyway.
06/11/2018 23:18Posted by Rangoor
If monks only had one style focused purely on agility


They all are focused on agility though. The brewmaster is built on evasion, the windwalker is hopefully obvious, and the mistweaver is no less mobility-focused than the other two.

06/11/2018 23:18Posted by Rangoor
you would have half a point.


You have nothing but the game mechanics backing your case, and the game mechanics are the ones I am complaining about. I have no idea why you are even posting.
06/11/2018 23:22Posted by Chíeun
You have nothing but the game mechanics backing your case


Game mechanics > Lore

Blizzard themselves have said this time and time before the rule of cool trumps everything else.
06/11/2018 23:21Posted by Darianuth
What gives you that impression?


Absolutely enormous, incapable of such feats due to their unsound anatomy.

06/11/2018 23:21Posted by Darianuth
I mean, for a start pandaren, the OG monks, have some hella stubby limbs


Panda males would have some trouble due to their short legs and somewhat long torsos, but their otherwise reasonable shape and smaller size would still put them worlds ahead of the misshapen tauren.

As for gnomes, honestly, I'd be okay with leaving them out too. Sure.

I mean if the size and bulk and shape of the tauren didn't matter, why bother having them at all be different to begin with?

06/11/2018 23:23Posted by Lukas
06/11/2018 23:22Posted by Chíeun
You have nothing but the game mechanics backing your case


Game mechanics > Lore

Blizzard themselves have said this time and time before the rule of cool trumps everything else.


Oh definitely. I am not expecting anything to be changed. I am just saying why I think it should be (in before Rangoor saltily commentating 'that is just what you think' as per usual).
06/11/2018 23:22Posted by Chíeun
You have nothing but the game mechanics backing your case, and the game mechanics are the ones I am complaining about. I have no idea why you are even posting.


https://wow.gamepedia.com/Chi

"the chi is directed to control the battlefield by enhancing own's movement and restricting foe's, healing allies while simultaneously damaging enemies, or invoking celestial spirits to aid in battle"

There, now please stop the headcannon. Tauren monks are fine, elf monks are fine, gnome monks are fine.

Now should the allied races be monks? That's something I am not sure I fully agree with either, simply because of time and places that they could be taught being a bit...Awkward.
06/11/2018 23:27Posted by Rangoor
There, now please stop the headcannon.


When you stop trying to flamebait by insistently ignoring that I am trying to argue for what should be, rather than about what is, then sure.

It is extremely tiresome to argue with you for that reason.
When you stop trying to flamebait by insistently ignoring that I am trying to argue for what should be, rather than about what is, then sure.

LIKE
QUOTE
PREV


You asked for proof that isn't game mechanics, I gave you it. If that is flamebaiting then tough, don't bring it up if you don't like opposing opinions.
06/11/2018 23:30Posted by Rangoor
You asked for proof that isn't game mechanics, I gave you it. If that is flamebaiting then tough, don't bring it up if you don't like opposing opinions.


It's not proof. It's inconclusive. 'Enhancing movement' could mean anything from strength to agility.

06/11/2018 23:08Posted by Rangoor
I don't plan on doing five pages of this nonsense again.

Except obviously it is exactly what you were after, because you went in as provocative as you possibly could and continued from there.

Especially when we have already done this debate to death before and I think it's pretty clear nobody is going to change their opinion. Why are you doing this again?

Now if we could stop that would be great, it is getting late and I have other things to do than spend hours trying to argue logic with you like last time.

Thank you.
06/11/2018 18:36Posted by Chíeun
Yeah but it distinctly smells of '16 year old archmage' when non-pandaren monk masters dive into tournaments and smack around native masters.


I suppose all human mages in lore (or humans in general) are actually a million times weaker than any of the longer lived races of the same profession as well, since they didn't spend nearly as much time practising. Move over Jaina, my level 57 draenei mage will lead the Alliance to victory!
06/11/2018 23:35Posted by Nightforge
I suppose all human mages in lore (or humans in general) are actually a million times weaker than any of the longer lived races of the same profession as well, since they didn't spend nearly as much time practising. Move over Jaina, my level 57 draenei mage will lead the Alliance to victory!


Probably just diminishing returns. After a couple decades or so of experience, you probably have most parts of a class down solid, and anything after that - while helpful - probably is easier to compensate for via talent.

Fwiw I practice(d) (I am kinda casual nowadays) an IRL martial art. Someone with one year of experience - even someone with a repute of talent - was usually absolutely destroyed by a teacher with fifteen years of experience, but when seeing a teacher with fifteen years going up against a teacher with thirty years of experience, it was a lot closer. The experience obviously helped, but it was nowhere near as much of a stomp despite the difference being 15 rather than 14 years.

That is just my best explanation of it, of course. If you have some lore giving an alternate reason, go ahead.
You can basically "justify" every race being every class if your argument is basically, "it's just magic, bro" - it doesn't necessarily making it interesting to do so, however; just as with Demon Hunter being restricted to certain races, so too should monk. To do otherwise is to basically homogenise the identity behind said classes if it's just something everybody can do with minimal training.
Funnily enough, the new raid does have a "dynamic duo" boss consisting of a monk and a fire mage. That's two monks who aren't pandaren who are on raid boss levels of powerful, calling upon various celestial spirits, conjuring up a boatload of Rings of Peace, knocking people 100 meters into the air and anime punching them from all sides, and a bunch of other crazy stuff.

These bosses, powerful champions of their respective factions, plus the various non-pandaren monk champions in the Order Hall plus various Masters at the Peak plus the leader of the Broken Temple, pandaren or not, becoming a Grandmaster, et cetera, and even the game mechanic of monks receiving an experience boost all points towards one thing:

There is no noticable difference in skill levels between an average pandaren monk and an average monk of another race, and they all have the potential to become masters of their craft if they so wish, even in a short period of time. All that is required is an open mind.

That being said, I do not currently RP a Grandmaster or even a Master in any particular way. However, I don't RP a bumbling buffoon of a new apprentice either just because you want a class you don't even play to be unique to your race. I have put in many, many hours of my life roleplaying monks of various races, including night and blood elves, since their very conception, actually training alongside well-established roleplayers like Zen and others IC on my initiates while also playing out more experienced monks, like this one.
If you honestly think spending years immersing myself in Monk RP and exploring every facet of it is null and void simply because I'm not a pandaren, then that's your issue and yours alone. We won't bend to you because you want to feel special and unique when everything from lore to gameplay mechanics says it's absolutely fine, and the only thing you can come up with is "bad writing."
06/11/2018 23:31Posted by Chíeun
Except obviously it is exactly what you were after, because you went in as provocative as you possibly could and continued from there.

Especially when we have already done this debate to death before and I think it's pretty clear nobody is going to change their opinion. Why are you doing this again?

Now if we could stop that would be great, it is getting late and I have other things to do than spend hours trying to argue logic with you like last time.

Thank you.


Suit yourself, there is nothing left to argue regardless.

Game proves it is fine, lore proves it is fine, literal description of chi explains why it is fine.

Goodnight.

(in before Rangoor saltily commentating 'that is just what you think' as per usual).


Also this is just amusing. You complain about being provocative and flamebaiting yet post this tripe because you just can't handle being wrong.

Be less disingenuous and you will find your online interactions a lot less melt down causing.
It's not proof. It's inconclusive. 'Enhancing movement' could mean anything from strength to agility.


Synonyms for movement include: mobility, maneuver and, well, move. I'm pretty sure it is meaning to enhance speed or mobility. The class even has a few move speed buffs doesn't it? And many of its buffs/traits/etc buff agility I'm sure.

At the end of the day however it's fine to agree to disagree. I'm not going to keep pursing the topic since every possible argument has been put forward by everybody involved. I'm pretty sure there's nothing else I can add. And yes, I do remember now that this was discussed at great length before. I probably shouldn't have started it all up again about six pages back.

I'm still going to keep asking "worgen monks when?" though.
06/11/2018 23:56Posted by Nightforge
If you honestly think spending years immersing myself in Monk RP and exploring every facet of it is null and void


Sorry, the 'I have lots of RP experience so I am right' card is a bit tired by now. I have spent most of my career RPing DKs, but that is not a free pass to lecture anyone else who does.

06/11/2018 23:56Posted by Nightforge
Funnily enough, the new raid does have a "dynamic duo" boss consisting of a monk and a fire mage


Probably the most egregious case of someone who shouldn't be a monk getting to be one.

Lightforged have been here a month or two and are already raid boss level monks? Blizzard, please.

If it is that easy to learn stuff in WoW you may as well just give us pandaren demon hunters already, because all it takes is a single DH with a weird sense of humour to make it reality. Might as well give everyone everything if racial identity has no meaning.

Can't wait to run a vulpera demon hunter guild as soon as they are out, by the way. They spent like five entire seconds training so they are basically Illidan already.

Actually why stop there? If it doesn't take any real time or investment to master something, why not play a character who is a master of all classes at once?
Well, we have brought forward a lot of points that argue for the inclusion of most races as monks and all you can say for your case is "Blizzard pls"
Sorry, but your vision of monks is apparantly different from how everyone else (aka non-pandaren players) sees them.
And that's fine, if you think my character shouldn't exist, you're free to avoid any of us filthy non-furred monks who dare appropriate your culture. As you stated before, you heavily dislike RPing with void elves and I assume the same goes for anything that doesn't fit within your worldview of what races and classes are acceptable to RP and what isn't. I'm just saying that it might get pretty lonely that way.

I'm going to bed now.

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