M+ is drowning, how do we save it?

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04/11/2018 22:18Posted by Freya
Ancedotal evidence, but, we are just a few months into the expansion and it seems like less people are doing m+ right now than at the content drought at the end of Legion.

What does Blizzard need to do to save m+?


less people run them because in order to get actual good gear you need to do hundreds of runs and lets be honest most people cba to do it unless content is very easy .

plus there is no reason really to run lower keys . my hunter is 362 and its wearing 1 mythic + piece which i got because i was to lazy and run freehold x2 on this toon for 4 dungeons for weekly not because i aimed to get mythic + gear
The problem I see with WOW is that it has lost most of it's community. I only came back this weekend after a long break (had a lot of max levels on a US Server).

Back in Vanilla, BC and even Wrath people were largely confined to their own server for most activities and this served to create a community on that server. Now it is just about randomly grouping cross server for everything with no consequences for being poor on your class, for being an elitist douche, or just being annoying in general.

The people you are grouping with are reduced to moving pixels who rarely communicate with each other, save when they want to let an insult fly.

This ease with which you can find a cross server group has killed most forms of Normal / Heroic guilds and this in turn means that when people hit that wall for higher content they don't have a group to do it with.

It is probably too late to put the cross server back in the box and to reintroduce hard raid locks as well where you wouldn't dream of raiding outside of guild in case of failure. However the pool at the top for higher level is just going to get smaller and smaller because the ordinary Normal /Heroic guild that previously took people in, trained them up and progressed to higher level eventually is dead as a door nail.
i would do a couple of mythic dungeons each week, but...
rider.io says no :D
04/11/2018 22:18Posted by Freya
Ancedotal evidence, but, we are just a few months into the expansion and it seems like less people are doing m+ right now than at the content drought at the end of Legion.

What does Blizzard need to do to save m+?


How can it both be dying and have too many people doing M+ so that the leaderboards can't cope?
05/11/2018 11:56Posted by Lockhero
It's because they removed the legendary system

That in itself gave people incentive to re run M+. Same with AP grinding. Now there's no reason to rerun M+ other than rio score. people cant be bothered with it
its good they removed legion legendary system it was horrible.
I have never liked Mythic +, adding timers just takes away all the fun and replaces it with stress and a player base that become toxic to anyone making a mistake, it also leads to the ridiculous situation of raider i.o or whatever its called being used to decide on players to accept or decline. Dungeons should be group content for 5 players to join and have fun in, instead M+ are group content for 5 players to meet in and get stressed, discourage any talking beyond tactics, which in pugs rarely happens beyond toxic chat aimed at one player or another.

The only way to really fix M+ is to scrap them completely and come up with something better.
Personally I would love to see some form of dungeons based around the same themes as regular scripted ones but have random elements thrown into to each one, from a random boss, to trash packs that are not in the same formations or the same type every time, or some sort of random event that needs to be completed, and have the difficulty levels of the mobs scale to the average ilvl of the group, and loot rewarding on the same basis rewarding better gear to players than your current ilvl. Actually make a group have to discuss tactics before each fight, decide what to pull, what may need some CC, what roaming pack might need to be dealt with first. Instead of the current situation of shorten timer to punish any player that makes a mistake by the rest of the group, and adding different weekly affixes to mobs which either results in players avoiding M+ when they don`t like the affixes or quickly learning on how to adapt making them very little challenge to those players. What is needed at end game is dynamic group content that encourages players to have to work together as a team to overcome it, M+ does not work that way, it instead alienates players from each other and creates a toxic player base.
05/11/2018 12:44Posted by Saphiramoon
You do need CC in m+ - especially after 10+, where you always need to cc the infested trash - but not only there.


Yeah, I know - but we’re still talking these massive trash pulls, instead of more evenly matched fights.

I really liked the TBC HCs, where failure and wipes were a rather normal occurrence, unless you really worked around which mobs to CC and where we had way less AoE. CC, prioritising targets, spell interruptions, watching for patrolling adds. I liked that a lot and I tanked a lot of that stuff.

I know that you also have to use your brains for high M+ and I respect that. I just find it very arcade-y and playing like Diablo 3.
The problem I see with WOW is that it has lost most of it's community. I only came back this weekend after a long break (had a lot of max levels on a US Server).

Back in Vanilla, BC and even Wrath people were largely confined to their own server for most activities and this served to create a community on that server. Now it is just about randomly grouping cross server for everything with no consequences for being poor on your class, for being an elitist douche, or just being annoying in general.

The people you are grouping with are reduced to moving pixels who rarely communicate with each other, save when they want to let an insult fly.

This ease with which you can find a cross server group has killed most forms of Normal / Heroic guilds and this in turn means that when people hit that wall for higher content they don't have a group to do it with.

It is probably too late to put the cross server back in the box and to reintroduce hard raid locks as well where you wouldn't dream of raiding outside of guild in case of failure. However the pool at the top for higher level is just going to get smaller and smaller because the ordinary Normal /Heroic guild that previously took people in, trained them up and progressed to higher level eventually is dead as a door nail.


that is simply not true . examples.

when i make mythic 0 groups i get signups in seconds

when i am runing low level dungeons i get inside very fast

when i am doin legion invasions to level alts i see hundreds of people doin them through whole duration of invasions

when i do normal dungeons when leveling i get in very fast

when i do lfr i get in fast and there are plenty people doin it.

if i wanted to make mythic + groups for dungeons people like atal / freehold (and yes its very important factor for playerbase to like dungeon X or Y ) i would have singups very fast

when i do WQ i see hundreds of people doin them .

if i wanted to do normal/hc uldir there are dozens of groups forming at every minute possible in prime game time

so i have a question - what are you basing you observations on about people leaving wow .

unless you mean people not wanting to play by being tied to guild . this i could agree with easily
05/11/2018 14:12Posted by Whitepaw
Yeah, I know - but we’re still talking these massive trash pulls, instead of more evenly matched fights.


Maybe I'm not that good of a player, but I have not noticed massive trash pulls, since most affixes screw that in a way or another. Most I've seen was 2 packs at once, and even then there is some pacing involved.

05/11/2018 14:12Posted by Whitepaw
I really liked the TBC HCs, where failure and wipes were a rather normal occurrence, unless you really worked around which mobs to CC and where we had way less AoE. CC, prioritising targets, spell interruptions, watching for patrolling adds. I liked that a lot and I tanked a lot of that stuff.

I think TBC hcs were harder a lot because we had a lot less abilities. There weren't many aoe spells back then, and aoe tanking was basically non-existent. Still, you do have priority targets in m+ too, so aoe isn't always the best idea. Furthermore, players weren't as used to the game as they are now. I mean, an end tier boss on mythic now has as many abilities as an entire raid back then. Half the Kara groups skipped Netherspite, and his beams are hilariously simple in nowadays terms - we have a 5 man boss with that mechanic now.

The whole CC thing in TBC also had a downside - as in, if you played a class without CC, you were screwed, nobody would take you anywhere. I had a friend playing ret pala and another playing enh shaman (shamans got hex later) that literally had no chance getting into groups.

Personally I enjoy the m+ system more, because it scales endlessly. TBC hcs were still hard at the end of the expansion for Kara raiders, but that was just because you couldn't really outgear them. Most of them were super-unpopular, and hardly run outside serious raiders. The vast majority of players ran Mechanar and Botanica on hc, and never set foot in the rest.

05/11/2018 14:12Posted by Whitepaw
I know that you also have to use your brains for high M+ and I respect that. I just find it very arcade-y and playing like Diablo 3.

I tried D3, but it didn't catch me really.
05/11/2018 14:23Posted by Lilîith
The problem I see with WOW is that it has lost most of it's community. I only came back this weekend after a long break (had a lot of max levels on a US Server).

Back in Vanilla, BC and even Wrath people were largely confined to their own server for most activities and this served to create a community on that server. Now it is just about randomly grouping cross server for everything with no consequences for being poor on your class, for being an elitist douche, or just being annoying in general.

The people you are grouping with are reduced to moving pixels who rarely communicate with each other, save when they want to let an insult fly.

This ease with which you can find a cross server group has killed most forms of Normal / Heroic guilds and this in turn means that when people hit that wall for higher content they don't have a group to do it with.

It is probably too late to put the cross server back in the box and to reintroduce hard raid locks as well where you wouldn't dream of raiding outside of guild in case of failure. However the pool at the top for higher level is just going to get smaller and smaller because the ordinary Normal /Heroic guild that previously took people in, trained them up and progressed to higher level eventually is dead as a door nail.


that is simply not true . examples.

when i make mythic 0 groups i get signups in seconds

when i am runing low level dungeons i get inside very fast

when i am doin legion invasions to level alts i see hundreds of people doin them through whole duration of invasions

when i do normal dungeons when leveling i get in very fast

when i do lfr i get in fast and there are plenty people doin it.

if i wanted to make mythic + groups for dungeons people like atal / freehold (and yes its very important factor for playerbase to like dungeon X or Y ) i would have singups very fast

when i do WQ i see hundreds of people doin them .

if i wanted to do normal/hc uldir there are dozens of groups forming at every minute possible in prime game time

so i have a question - what are you basing you observations on about people leaving wow .

unless you mean people not wanting to play by being tied to guild . this i could agree with easily


Where did I say about people leaving WOW? Although the game is gone from 12m at peak to an estimated 1.7m now so a fair few have left.

What I did say is that lower level content at end game is now too accessible without being in a guild/server group where you would have to learn your class and pull your weight. Even the old system of having proper raid locks was much better at keeping guilds together.

What you have now are the majority of players either unguilded or in husks of guilds that don't raid as a guild anymore. The lower level content is blown through without having to learn anything or just by keeping going until you hit on a random group that will carry you.

Next they hit a wall ilevel wise and haven't a notion how to CC, move out of mechanics or anything else. However they now no longer have decent size guilds to find groups in to work through this content, so they que up and fail without learning, have a terrible experience and avoid that content going forward.

Edit: Unless of course you think by lost its community that I meant player numbers. On the contrary I mean actual community as in players who would know each other by regularly playing together on the same server. There is no community in that sense in WOW anymore.
05/11/2018 14:05Posted by Ilistria
I have never liked Mythic +, adding timers just takes away all the fun and replaces it with stress and a player base that become toxic to anyone making a mistake, it also leads to the ridiculous situation of raider i.o or whatever its called being used to decide on players to accept or decline. Dungeons should be group content for 5 players to join and have fun in, instead M+ are group content for 5 players to meet in and get stressed, discourage any talking beyond tactics, which in pugs rarely happens beyond toxic chat aimed at one player or another.

The only way to really fix M+ is to scrap them completely and come up with something better.
Personally I would love to see some form of dungeons based around the same themes as regular scripted ones but have random elements thrown into to each one, from a random boss, to trash packs that are not in the same formations or the same type every time, or some sort of random event that needs to be completed, and have the difficulty levels of the mobs scale to the average ilvl of the group, and loot rewarding on the same basis rewarding better gear to players than your current ilvl. Actually make a group have to discuss tactics before each fight, decide what to pull, what may need some CC, what roaming pack might need to be dealt with first. Instead of the current situation of shorten timer to punish any player that makes a mistake by the rest of the group, and adding different weekly affixes to mobs which either results in players avoiding M+ when they don`t like the affixes or quickly learning on how to adapt making them very little challenge to those players. What is needed at end game is dynamic group content that encourages players to have to work together as a team to overcome it, M+ does not work that way, it instead alienates players from each other and creates a toxic player base.


This person has 0 bosses cleared in Uldir and 0 registered m+ runs. Opinion dismissed.

Like, bro. Do you even play the game or are you just sitting on the forums every day whining? How can you be so opinionated about a game you don’t even play? You can still do regular mythic dungeons if the timer bothers you. M+ is an addition to regular dungeons not a replacement of them, literally nothing is stopping you from doing them instead. Although I assume that the 340 gear isn’t good enough for you as you want the high end gear for free without putting any effort to it. You are a manifestation of everything that is wrong with WoW. Go do WQs, IEs and warfronts. That content is suited for you.
05/11/2018 13:30Posted by Punyelf
04/11/2018 22:18Posted by Freya
Ancedotal evidence, but, we are just a few months into the expansion and it seems like less people are doing m+ right now than at the content drought at the end of Legion.

What does Blizzard need to do to save m+?


How can it both be dying and have too many people doing M+ so that the leaderboards can't cope?


You speak to much sense <3 but let them carry on being ignorant
05/11/2018 16:38Posted by Diviníus
05/11/2018 13:30Posted by Punyelf
...

How can it both be dying and have too many people doing M+ so that the leaderboards can't cope?


You speak to much sense <3 but let them carry on being ignorant


Sense isn't allowed in the forums, only delusions! Common sense is the killer of 20% of the WoW community. Every day, a starving brain cell enters the Forums, never to be seen again. For just 1 common sense post a day, you can save them.
There are multiple things which cause pugging a M+ to be a hell and it kinda comes all down to taking useful and fun stuff from us without really replacing it and making the content itself more dreadful.

They took our legendaries(the way you got them in Legion was !@#$, but I can't deny that they made the game more fun and the added effects made problems easier to deal with), our artifact weapons(Heart of Azeroth and Azurite gear don't even come close to replacing this), a bunch of our GCD-free abilities, tank threat levels, tank magic mitigation, artifact power gains from M+, etc..

They gave us more open areas in dungeons, more tightly packed but separate groups of trash mobs, more trash mob mechanics, easier ways to get "free loot"(thus creating the fiction that you can do content adequate to that ilvl), etc..

They made it harder to deal with "oh %^-* moments"(by taking the abilities or passives that could help you away or making them harder to use), whilst making it easier to get into "oh !@#$ moments and making those moments bigger "oh %^-* moments"(by making the dungeons harder in general).

Although I believe all I have said up to this point, I know how this makes me look. And I admit, I am not that good at the game, but I am good at looking at stuff logically and realistically. When there are this many contradictory changes, a backlash against it should be expected.

They added more problems to deal with, which isn't necessarily a bad thing on its own, took away a lot of potential ways to deal with problems, which isn't necessarily a bad thing on its own either and they tried to make the the threshold to higher content lower, which again isn't a bad thing on its own. It is the combination of it all that creates an atmosphere in which pugging becomes a living hell.

The seemingly low threshold as consequence of "free loot" with decent ilvls causes people to think they are better than they are. So the adequately geared "free looter" with extremely inadequate skill for that gear will get into a group for a decent key and they will screw everything up. These situations create animosity, in which the experienced get called elitist and the inexperienced get called plebs.

And because of this all, raider.io is a necessary evil. It is not the cause of the problems, it's a direct consequence of them.
05/11/2018 16:20Posted by Khimaera
This person has 0 bosses cleared in Uldir and 0 registered m+ runs. Opinion dismissed.


Amoury shaming ? i mean seriously grow up .You trying to be the next Asmongold or something ? Only parasites use the armoury shame for trying to make a point .

Anyone who payes a sub is allowed a voice on the forums and you can not stop them so do us a favour and do one and try and debate without armoury shaming .
Raider IO is undoutedly one of the biggest reasons i feel for this. Also the lack of activity i've found from levels 2-6/7 is disturbing. It's very muchly the case for me atleast not speaking on behalf of the community that M+ in BFA is not anywhere near as active as Legion was.

Maybe cause it's new or the use of third party sites to determine who is a good player or not, you decide that people.
05/11/2018 16:43Posted by Diviníus
05/11/2018 16:20Posted by Khimaera
This person has 0 bosses cleared in Uldir and 0 registered m+ runs. Opinion dismissed.


Amoury shaming ? i mean seriously grow up .You trying to be the next Asmongold or something ? Only parasites use the armoury shame for trying to make a point .

Anyone who payes a sub is allowed a voice on the forums and you can not stop them so do us a favour and do one and try and debate without armoury shaming .


Lmao, stop hiding behind an alt, what are you ashamed of? I’m not shaming anyone but it’s pretty obvious that someone that speaks of something they have no experience of should be highly disregarded. This applies everywhere not just in wow. He hasn’t sat his foot in an m+ and yet he’s calling for it to be removed, how can you possibly defend this.
I hated dungeon rushing since TBC. M+ is just embodied what I hate. I don`t want to play them.
05/11/2018 17:38Posted by Khimaera
05/11/2018 16:43Posted by Diviníus
...

Amoury shaming ? i mean seriously grow up .You trying to be the next Asmongold or something ? Only parasites use the armoury shame for trying to make a point .

Anyone who payes a sub is allowed a voice on the forums and you can not stop them so do us a favour and do one and try and debate without armoury shaming .


Lmao, stop hiding behind an alt, what are you ashamed of? I’m not shaming anyone but it’s pretty obvious that someone that speaks of something they have no experience of should be highly disregarded. This applies everywhere not just in wow. He hasn’t sat his foot in an m+ and yet he’s calling for it to be removed, how can you possibly defend this.

Anyone whom visits the forums often knows my main and knows what level i play at.

I defend anyone who has armoury shaming used agaisnt them especially by somebody like you who thinks doing a 13 key and 3/8 mythic is good when tbh its sub standard.

He/she bought up some valid ideas which you just dismissed.

Now run along little one you got alot to learn in and out of game about life and views.
05/11/2018 17:47Posted by Diviníus
05/11/2018 17:38Posted by Khimaera
...

Lmao, stop hiding behind an alt, what are you ashamed of? I’m not shaming anyone but it’s pretty obvious that someone that speaks of something they have no experience of should be highly disregarded. This applies everywhere not just in wow. He hasn’t sat his foot in an m+ and yet he’s calling for it to be removed, how can you possibly defend this.

Anyone whom visits the forums often knows my main and knows what level i play at.

I defend anyone who has armoury shaming used agaisnt them especially by somebody like you who thinks doing a 13 key and 3/8 mythic is good when tbh its sub standard.

He/she bought up some valid ideas which you just dismissed.

Now run along little one you got alot to learn in and out of game about life and views.


Jesus Christ, you are so full of yourself it’s insane and now you proceed to do the very thing you accuse me of. Quite the hypocrite, aren’t you. I’ve never claimed that I’m good or that my progress is something out of the ordinary but at least I have experience of the content. Still too fragile to show your main as every other sad brainlet on the forums.

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