Alliance faction pride

Story
Since the forum kind of ate my longer post, I'll make it short, mirroring the Horde topic:
Alliance players. Do you feel anything approaching pride in your faction? Did you before? Have you lost it along the way? What are you proud of and did that change over time?

I for one don't feel any pride in the Alliance as a faction, and don't remember ever feeling any. If the Horde had the gnomes I'd be playing Horde. I never cared much for the faction conflict (though I may have whined a bit where I thought it was unfair against the side I play). If we were all unified under the Alliance, the Horde, or the Unified Coalition of Alliance and Horde, I wouldn't miss anything about the conflict. It was never deep enough in WoW to grab my interest, and it mostly felt cheap to me to pitch the players against each other.
Best to post this on my Night Elf this time.

I don't feel pride in my race/faction at all.

My homeland is in ruins, Teldrassil went up in flames with (arguably) the majority of its population and its capital city. A lot of the army was killed in the WoT (arguably again the majority of it. Worst the CC won't help its own people with even refugees and is forced to be neutral otherwise the Horde would be crushed already.

Before this we had Suramar city, jewel of the old Night Elves given to the Horde with one of the worst stories in the game just so they can have more Elves. And people defend this for god knows what reason. It would be like making Mag'har Orcs join the Alliance for some unknown awful reason.

What we get in return? Some Night Warrior stuff which is meant to make me feel better? Sure it is nice to see the Night Elves go back to what they were, and Tyrande and Malfurion to finally do something. But they are mere nibbles at this point.

Was it done in a good way as well? No it wasn't, it was done in a trash way with different sources contradicting each other. I could get over it if it was done well and my race went down in a blaze of glory, instead they got killed by giant crabs and bad writing.

And better yet I get a bunch of Horde players saying how this expansion fills my "ego" bar to max.

So in short no I don't like it at all. I don't have pride for what is going on and what my faction is doing and I am dreading what the ending is. Bad writing is bad writing and it affects everyone negatively regardless of if your side is winning or not.
Not really. WoW haven't really managed to bring out actual real life feelings of nationalism or patriotism in me. And I'm not talking about something characters within the Alliance have or haven't done. Nothing based on current story events either. Only reason I picked Alliance is because I've always liked their races and aesthethics more.

In something like PvP it wouldn't matter to me if they're called Alliance and Horde, or Blue and Red. It's just flavor text for competition between video game players for entertainment.

I'm not sure if the reason is that it has no real life consequences, or that since you can create both alliance and horde characters it doesn't create this strong bond to your decision, or if the story isn't engaging enough or a mix of all.
Let me ask you, In real life, do you feel more pride for the NATO or for your homeland?

The Alliance is basically the NATO. It's a military alliance (as the name literally says, duh), nothing more.

I feel pride for Stormwind, the golden jewel of the subcontinent of Azeroth, and greatest and most powerful city left to the East of the Great Sea. I feel pride for Kul Tiras, the fabled island city-state of legendary sailors, powerful hydromancers and rugged monster hunters.

I do not feel pride for a military alliance between the Humans and the lesser mongrels.
Let me ask you, In real life, do you feel more pride for NATO or for your homeland?

That's not the comparison I'd be interested in. There is another faction out there, that is just as much of a "mongrel alliance" as the Alliance is, and its players often seem to take significant pride in their faction, not just their race.

I've long held the suspicion that this is much rarer on Alliance side. Well, take this as research.
06/11/2018 20:50Posted by Frozengrip
Best to post this on my Night Elf this time.

I don't feel pride in my race/faction at all.

My homeland is in ruins, Teldrassil went up in flames with (arguably) the majority of its population and its capital city. A lot of the army was killed in the WoT (arguably again the majority of it. Worst the CC won't help its own people with even refugees and is forced to be neutral otherwise the Horde would be crushed already.

Before this we had Suramar city, jewel of the old Night Elves given to the Horde with one of the worst stories in the game just so they can have more Elves. And people defend this for god knows what reason. It would be like making Mag'har Orcs join the Alliance for some unknown awful reason.

What we get in return? Some Night Warrior stuff which is meant to make me feel better? Sure it is nice to see the Night Elves go back to what they were, and Tyrande and Malfurion to finally do something. But they are mere nibbles at this point.

Was it done in a good way as well? No it wasn't, it was done in a trash way with different sources contradicting each other. I could get over it if it was done well and my race went down in a blaze of glory, instead they got killed by giant crabs and bad writing.

And better yet I get a bunch of Horde players saying how this expansion fills my "ego" bar to max.

So in short no I don't like it at all. I don't have pride for what is going on and what my faction is doing and I am dreading what the ending is. Bad writing is bad writing and it affects everyone negatively regardless of if your side is winning or not.


Preach it :/

The Alliance is basically the NATO. It's a military alliance (as the name literally says, duh), nothing more..


Is it just that though?

Sure, it is a military alliance to find strength and protection in unity, just like with the Horde. But look at the cities, look at Stormwind. You have all the races of the Alliance walking around on the streets, living and working in it, and even owning shops. The unity has probably opened up for trade. Trading of resources, wares, opening up for a blooming economy for all the races. But also a trade in culture and history between the races.

NATO is just one part of EU. Trade, education, travel, culture, history. There's much more to the unity of EU than just a military alliance, and I would say the same of the Alliance and Horde in the virtual world of WoW.
I think a lot of people are shamed for being Alliance and therefore don’t take pride in it also due to horde faction pride being overpowering.

Even the devs taking the p*ss out of the Alliance sometimes.

Therefore Alli pride doesn’t exist.
06/11/2018 20:35Posted by Wimbert
Do you feel anything approaching pride in your faction? Did you before? Have you lost it along the way? What are you proud of and did that change over time?


My worgen player side, is not feeling much pride at the moment. I felt it, back in Legion, when Genn took the initiative and actually went solo to enact his vengeance.

It felt right, fitting with his character. Having him be this current subservient kind of ruler towards Anduin feels wrong.

Overall, i don't play Alliance faction much currently. But thats because i feel like its story is being pushed into the background for Anduin or Jaina to take the spotlight.

Darkshore looks great now for Night elves and it'll be good to have them go back to their WC3 roots.
But the rest are either being ignored at the moment (Dwarves), or sidelined into the sidekick trope for Anduin and Jaina to shine.
I liked having Katherine as Kul Tiran ruler, why should they give ANOTHER faction to Jaina to rule?.

Gnomes will get some lore in 8.2 apparently, but given the current story team, i'd be quaking in my boots if i were a gnome player.
Its one of those occasions when you'd rather have the story pass you by and ignore your race, or risk get butchered publicly.

Either getting stupid/villain batted like the Horde, or stupid/sidekick batted like the Alliance.
06/11/2018 21:11Posted by Nerconthis
Gnomes will get some lore in 8.2 apparently, but given the current story team, i'd be quaking in my boots if i were a gnome player.


Believe me, I am.
06/11/2018 21:08Posted by Wimbert
Let me ask you, In real life, do you feel more pride for NATO or for your homeland?

That's not the comparison I'd be interested in. There is another faction out there, that is just as much of a "mongrel alliance" as the Alliance is, and its players often seem to take significant pride in their faction, not just their race.

I've long held the suspicion that this is much rarer on Alliance side. Well, take this as research.


The Horde is a much more unified body than the Alliance. The Warchief is the clear leader of the Horde, whose authority is absolute. The High-King occupies about army focus, not control, and indeed the selfish Tyrande was unfortunately allowed to turn her back on him.

Is it just that though?


It was supposed to be just a military pact, before the writers decided to turn Stormwind City into a zoo.

The thing is, literally no one uses Ironforge or the Exodar (most players probably don't even know that it exists) as player hubs, so the developers just lump everything into Stormwind. Still, Yes, the Alliance is MEANT to be a mere pact, not an unified body like the Horde.

Indeed, you can see that in Classic the situation was somewhat more blurred, with both Stormwind City and Ironforge being pivotal player hubs, and the Alliance not having a clear High-King (even though it was formed by King Varian Wrynn of Stormwind, who was abducted by Onyxia's wretched minions), whereas the Horde was clearly controlled by Thrall.
06/11/2018 21:09Posted by Telriem
Preach it :/


I do, but it is the same. Both sides have bad writing and suffer the consequences of it. Yet this is like a measuring contest on who has it worst off. When we should all come together to not accept such bad writing.

The first step in to recognize it is, something which a lot of people don't understand when I point to all the Horde characters like Rexxar or Lillan and how their characters have been ruined of said plot. But people get so defensive over it.

"Rexxar has not been ruined that is your own opinion", well he has because he has done a complete 180 switch to how he use to be without the necessary development to justifies such a change.

It would be like cutting out the entirety of Theramore from Jania's arc and how she just goes insane and tries to drown Org' for no reason. It doesn't make sense yet people defend these changes so hard when they are objectively bad from a story writing prospective regardless if you find the change good.

But w/e it is easier to be at each others throats.
Frozengrip is focused on Night Elves rather than the Alliance.
Arctur is focused on Humans rather than the Alliance.

The thread's question seems to be focused on the greater whole of the Alliance itself and pride in that faction, rather than a specific race, yet some of the responses seem dedicated to racial pride instead. It does seem like Alliance players have a much more dismal view of their faction as a whole and seem to focus much more on their favoured races instead.

This isn't necessarily negative. I just noticed that discussion in the other thread is much more centered on the Horde rather than specific races, while in this thread it's the opposite case. What do you think drives that?

It was supposed to be just a military pact, before the writers decided to turn Stormwind City into a zoo.

[/quote]

From the beginning of the Alliance's forefather, the Alliance of Lordaeron, sure. But what I'm trying to say is that I think a "zoo" (taking your human pride a bit far there, eh?) is an inevitable consequence of that. Sharing of technology and information for war, the races living with each other in other cities to share that information, help build, train armies etc. It's inevitable that they would figure out trading in not just weapons, but silk, food etc, would be benifical for all.

This isn't necessarily negative. I just noticed that discussion in the other thread is much more centered on the Horde rather than specific races, while in this thread it's the opposite case. What do you think drives that?


I've always seen the Horde as misfits finding strength in unity. "Monster" races coming together to become something more than just "monsters". The races of the Horde has had a harder time fighting against hatred, and has found protection within the Horde. I think that has created a stronger sense of pride through struggle and hardship. That's why I liked Horde so much in vanilla. That concept of these weird misfits struggling together.
06/11/2018 21:25Posted by Beefbbq
I've always seen the Horde as misfits finding strength in unity. "Monster" races coming together to become something more than just "monsters". The races of the Horde has had a harder time fighting against hatred, and has found protection within the Horde. I think that has created a stronger sense of pride through struggle and hardship. That's why I liked Horde so much in vanilla. That concept of these weird misfits struggling together.

As true as this might be, I am talking about the players more than the in-character faction itself. Unless you think that the spirit of the Horde somehow unifies its players in the same way and causes them to have more pride in their faction rather than a specific race?

Alternatively, what is it about the Alliance's races that makes them so much more appealing than of the faction itself, with all of those races working together under one banner?

Could it be that while the individual races of the Alliance are more appealing than the individual races of the Horde, the overall concept of the Horde as a faction is more appealing than the concept of the Alliance as a faction?
06/11/2018 21:41Posted by Taxania
06/11/2018 21:25Posted by Beefbbq
I've always seen the Horde as misfits finding strength in unity. "Monster" races coming together to become something more than just "monsters". The races of the Horde has had a harder time fighting against hatred, and has found protection within the Horde. I think that has created a stronger sense of pride through struggle and hardship. That's why I liked Horde so much in vanilla. That concept of these weird misfits struggling together.

As true as this might be, I am talking about the players more than the in-character faction itself. Unless you think that the spirit of the Horde somehow unifies its players in the same way and causes them to have more pride in their faction rather than a specific race?


That's what I was thinking, yes. Perhaps it's easier to be immersed in the spirit of the Horde. We humans do have an easy time feeling empathy for underdogs.

06/11/2018 21:41Posted by Taxania
06/11/2018 21:25Posted by Beefbbq
I've always seen the Horde as misfits finding strength in unity. "Monster" races coming together to become something more than just "monsters". The races of the Horde has had a harder time fighting against hatred, and has found protection within the Horde. I think that has created a stronger sense of pride through struggle and hardship. That's why I liked Horde so much in vanilla. That concept of these weird misfits struggling together.


Could it be that while the individual races of the Alliance are more appealing than the individual races of the Horde, the overall concept of the Horde as a faction is more appealing than the concept of the Alliance as a faction?


I was writing longer than this, but it got me thnking and you know what, that pretty much hits the nail on the head for me personally.

However, I would also like to add that with "appealing", I literally mean physically appealing. When it comes to pure lore, the Horde races comes off on about an equal footing of interesting for me.
06/11/2018 21:23Posted by Taxania
This isn't necessarily negative. I just noticed that discussion in the other thread is much more centered on the Horde rather than specific races, while in this thread it's the opposite case. What do you think drives that?

That's actually a very interesting question. The Alliance was always defined as the faction that was promoting virtues such as justice, honour, respect, etc. And all of the races joined the Alliance because of this common goal. The Horde itself is supposed to only have joined up because they needed each other, not because they wanted each other. So I don't really have an answer, but I think it's an interesting point.
06/11/2018 21:23Posted by Taxania
I just noticed that discussion in the other thread is much more centered on the Horde rather than specific races, while in this thread it's the opposite case. What do you think drives that?


Thats because the Alliance is overfocussed on a certain race. Not saying its their fault and people like Arctur are wrong or Frozengrip is right... But it gets anoyying that whenever a Human gets involved he/she makes everyone around them dumb as a brick and they suddenly know everything better. It was Varian in MoP. Anduin was a little sh!t who outsmarted trained assassins of the 7th legion. Humans hold all high positions because everyone else is to stupid. Humans make up the Alliance High Command and its a Human High-King who decides which race is allowed to join or not. Humans fix all sorts of racial problems for every race except their own and no race is able to stand together unless Humans makes them do so apparently.

Its hard to feel pride in an "Alliance" where everything centers around one specific race when its made up out of 8 now? It gets even worse when an 70+ King of another Kingdom(destroyed or not) calls a 17 year old boy from another Kingdom "his King" and 10.000+ year old leaders just swoon over how wise and knowledgeable he is and how all should be happy to be led by him... And thats after we all know Humans have a track record of not delivering what they promised, like reclaiming lands.

No, I agree with Frozengrip and for all I care they make the Kaldorei a stand-alone faction. Had they been in the Horde, I would've been Horde to!
06/11/2018 21:53Posted by Theronarum
The Alliance was always defined as the faction that was promoting virtues such as justice, honour, respect, etc. And all of the races joined the Alliance because of this common goal.

Was it? I only ever understood the Alliance as a responce to the invading forces, be it the orcish Horde, the Scourge or the Legion. I never saw the values of humans, gnomes and nelves as very similar. Humans and dwarves, and dwarves and gnomes may go well together, and with the dwarves as a bridge that may have been enough to have a fitting EK Alliance, but gnomes are just too futuristic in spirit as well as in style to fit the medieval human kingdoms, so there is some tension there. And the Nelves are a different beast entirely. Anti magic, anti technology, and with the savagery of the wild they were actually in direct conflict with some of the core ideas of the east.

In contrast, trolls, orcs and tauren all gave me the same "tribal" feel. While there were of course differences, at the start they all seemed to have cultures revolving around spirits of nature and their ancestors. And apart from that... we had some strong personal friendships between their leaders, something the Alliance was utterly lacking (I mean... no human leader, some unknown dwarf, an even less known gnome and...Tyrande, who had never met any of them during WCIII). The Forsaken didn't fit them any better than the Nelves fit the Alliance, though.

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