The "Alterac Valley" Problem,Can It Be Fixed?

Battlegrounds
First things first, I actually like this battleground, but finding I have not been enjoying it the last few months. I think it's safe to guess I'm not the only person feeling this way about the battleground at the moment. I know many people are sick of the playstyle that many Russian and premade groups use where they make choke points and farm honor kills. Rather than moan about them, does this battleground need changing to reduce the honor kill farm techniques that are making people slowly hate this battleground ?

Let's try to keep it constructive and free of blaming these groups, let's try and look at what could be done by Blizzard to change this battleground or if there are any strategies that groups are missing.
  • Rework how the npc's are summoned and how they work.
    Make it so you need less hand-ins to summon some of the lesser npcs. The battleground is under the Epic Battleground section, so could bring this back in. Let us summon in the chargers without needing materials from the other end of the map. Make it so the wing commander summons don't need them rescuing from across the map. Make the npcs matter. This would allow groups to push back by summoning a wave of npcs to fight with. Put cooldowns on the summons so that groups can't spam them to keep them balanced as well.
  • I honestly wouldn't have any problems with chokepoints (my archaic istone computer can't handle them but that's another story), as most of the time what i see is two sides completely dodging each other and rushing to their respective final objectives (probably most people just want to finish av asap, but if that's the case why que in for epic bgs in the first place). So having an actual combat in the field and people trying to take our lesser objectives would be very good. Many times av ends with captains alive.

    However it would be good to have a nerf on summoning requirements, you hardly see people summoning them and in my experience those kind of alterac valleys have been the best ones for me. Additionally, maybe some changes can be made to encourage players to go for lesser objectives and actually combat the opposing faction. Perhaps some additional quests with possible rewards etc can be added.

    Afterall epic bgs aren't in the same que tab with the regular ones, so if a player ques in for an epic bg they should know that a long fight is waiting for them. No one is getting an av while hoping for a quick gilneas anymore, so it would only make sense if these epic bgs got a rework to make them not only 40v40 but also actually epic with a lot of objectives that teams have to do and proper rewards from completing objectives and winning (or even participating) the bg itself.
    personally I'd like to see it return to it's pre tbc, tbc state, the alliance have too many advantages as it is now, moving the horde starting point forward to where it used to be would mean that we would clash on the field of strife like we used to instead of just waving hi to each other as we pass on opposite sides of the map, maybe people are just to impatient now days for the long drawn out AV's I used to love and just want to finish and get it over with asap.
    @Xenions - I like your topic, since I have some of the same concerns of Alterac Valley. I did swore I would not PVP since I haven't really liked it the last couple of expansions, but the "Epic Random Battleground" have been my favorite the last couple of days/weeks.

    @Mossley
    ...the alliance have too many advantages as it is now, moving the horde starting point forward to where it used to be would mean that we would clash on...

    I'm really not agree with you. Maybe and that's a big MAYBE Alliance have a advantage in race of towers who will cap first, but it only require ONE hunter/warrior to stop the 2 or 3 Alliance who are racing down to Frostwolf. Those 30 seconds delay is enough for Horde to cap Dun Baldar first, and therefore will win the race.

    As it is right now Horde have a HUGE advantage when it comes to Alterac Valley, if they decide not to attack and just defend and wait it out.

    I was against the russian defense team yesterday, and there is NOTHING we can do about. For a good solid 10 minutes both teams just stand and looked at each other, because Alliance knows if we attack - the Horde will win in their choke point, and if they run away from their towers they will lose.

    The battle lasted for 1½ hour and Horde won with 150 reinforcements even when they didn't cap a single bunker or killed Belinda.

    https://imgur.com/a/G5Ne9Xe

    If you see my picture here, you can see where the problem lies. If Alliance did the same defense, we will lose a bunker, Belinda and a graveyard.
    07/11/2018 11:42Posted by Icorian
    I'm really not agree with you. Maybe and that's a big MAYBE Alliance have a advantage in race of towers who will cap first, but it only require ONE hunter/warrior to stop the 2 or 3 Alliance who are racing down to Frostwolf. Those 30 seconds delay is enough for Horde to cap Dun Baldar first, and therefore will win the race.

    As it is right now Horde have a HUGE advantage when it comes to Alterac Valley, if they decide not to attack and just defend and wait it out.

    I was against the russian defense team yesterday, and there is NOTHING we can do about. For a good solid 10 minutes both teams just stand and looked at each other, because Alliance knows if we attack - the Horde will win in their choke point, and if they run away from their towers they will lose.

    The battle lasted for 1½ hour and Horde won with 150 reinforcements even when they didn't cap a single bunker or killed Belinda.


    Pretty much sums up current AV.

    If Horde chooses to match the zerg I would say it's a 51-49% for Alliance. But if Horde opts-in to defending they have to be heavily outclassed to lose the game.

    And yes this is mainly about the IB chokepoint. It's not the fact that it's a chokepoint, we have a couple others in the map as well. But this one is perfectly located, supported by a GY that is uncapable without pushing through the chokepoint.

    And the most important thing about this !@#$ty design is that while most chokepoints on the map are just, you know chokepoints, this one has only one way in but two ways out. So Alliance can only push in, while Horde can always go around for either a flank attack or to send guerilla attackers to the other side of the map.

    If Horde zergs, it's basically a 50-50
    If Horde defends, it's heavily in their favor.
    07/11/2018 11:42Posted by Icorian
    ...the alliance have too many advantages as it is now, moving the horde starting point forward to where it used to be would mean that we would clash on...


    AV is Horde biased. They only have to defend to win.
    07/11/2018 11:42Posted by Icorian
    @Xenions - I like your topic, since I have some of the same concerns of Alterac Valley. I did swore I would not PVP since I haven't really liked it the last couple of expansions, but the "Epic Random Battleground" have been my favorite the last couple of days/weeks.

    @Mossley
    ...the alliance have too many advantages as it is now, moving the horde starting point forward to where it used to be would mean that we would clash on...

    I'm really not agree with you. Maybe and that's a big MAYBE Alliance have a advantage in race of towers who will cap first, but it only require ONE hunter/warrior to stop the 2 or 3 Alliance who are racing down to Frostwolf. Those 30 seconds delay is enough for Horde to cap Dun Baldar first, and therefore will win the race.

    As it is right now Horde have a HUGE advantage when it comes to Alterac Valley, if they decide not to attack and just defend and wait it out.

    I was against the russian defense team yesterday, and there is NOTHING we can do about. For a good solid 10 minutes both teams just stand and looked at each other, because Alliance knows if we attack - the Horde will win in their choke point, and if they run away from their towers they will lose.

    The battle lasted for 1½ hour and Horde won with 150 reinforcements even when they didn't cap a single bunker or killed Belinda.

    https://imgur.com/a/G5Ne9Xe

    If you see my picture here, you can see where the problem lies. If Alliance did the same defense, we will lose a bunker, Belinda and a graveyard.


    Probably was this battle,

    https://i.imgur.com/PeWZzYB.png

    Came half way through, normally i dont do half epics but saw alliance had taken IBGY and pushed up- so wished I hadnt. Though was a learning curve, pity many wouldnt have taken squat from it.

    Just have to work out how that lone fire mage could run like a druid and heal herself 4 times.
    07/11/2018 23:55Posted by Rammin


    Probably was this battle,

    https://i.imgur.com/PeWZzYB.png

    Came half way through, normally i dont do half epics but saw alliance had taken IBGY and pushed up- so wished I hadnt. Though was a learning curve, pity many wouldnt have taken squat from it.

    Just have to work out how that lone fire mage could run like a druid and heal herself 4 times.


    It was - I see my name on your recount :) - I would call it a pretty good run actually, but that level of cordination/premade was amazing and I don't think any random battlegrounds would have any chance to live up that.
    07/11/2018 23:55Posted by Rammin
    Just have to work out how that lone fire mage could run like a druid and heal herself 4 times.


    Cauterize + Temporal Shield. Guilty of using it myself. And funnily enough was also in that bg, is what made me think about this topic.
    08/11/2018 22:53Posted by Xenions
    07/11/2018 23:55Posted by Rammin
    Just have to work out how that lone fire mage could run like a druid and heal herself 4 times.


    Cauterize + Temporal Shield. Guilty of using it myself. And funnily enough was also in that bg, is what made me think about this topic.
    Yep very likely cosha, plates on so second time she scuttled look like half a map away when help arrived after downing 75% of my health in a cast or 2. Guess thats mage utility compared with locks.

    Icorian good to see you in a bgs tonight, shows what a small pool of players our servers pull from, as i often see players I recognise, mostly in epics.

    Has blizz turned the power knob towards Alliance certainly been alot better last two days.
    09/11/2018 21:57Posted by Rammin
    Yep very likely cosha, plates on so second time she scuttled look like half a map away when help arrived after downing 75% of my health in a cast or 2. Guess thats mage unility compared with locks.

    Icorian good ton see you in a bgs tonight, shows what a small pool of players our servers pull from, as i often see players I recognise, mostly in epics.

    Has blizz turned the power knob towards Alliance certainly been alot better last two days.


    You too man! Did had my longest win-streak in Isle of Conquest! :P
    The big issue with AV or Epic BG's in general is that most do it for their daily CP, which you're only rewarded if you actually win the BG.

    Now should i:
    A: Stay in the BG when all signs say that we will loose and it will take 30+ mins to do so.
    B: Leave the BG, wait 15 mins for the debuff then queue again, hoping this time we might win?

    Option B is much, much more time saving, while option A relies on the slim chance that you actually might win the BG.

    I think i'll go with option B
    07/11/2018 18:22Posted by Ájmage
    07/11/2018 11:42Posted by Icorian
    I'm really not agree with you. Maybe and that's a big MAYBE Alliance have a advantage in race of towers who will cap first, but it only require ONE hunter/warrior to stop the 2 or 3 Alliance who are racing down to Frostwolf. Those 30 seconds delay is enough for Horde to cap Dun Baldar first, and therefore will win the race.

    As it is right now Horde have a HUGE advantage when it comes to Alterac Valley, if they decide not to attack and just defend and wait it out.

    I was against the russian defense team yesterday, and there is NOTHING we can do about. For a good solid 10 minutes both teams just stand and looked at each other, because Alliance knows if we attack - the Horde will win in their choke point, and if they run away from their towers they will lose.

    The battle lasted for 1½ hour and Horde won with 150 reinforcements even when they didn't cap a single bunker or killed Belinda.


    Pretty much sums up current AV.

    If Horde chooses to match the zerg I would say it's a 51-49% for Alliance. But if Horde opts-in to defending they have to be heavily outclassed to lose the game.

    And yes this is mainly about the IB chokepoint. It's not the fact that it's a chokepoint, we have a couple others in the map as well. But this one is perfectly located, supported by a GY that is uncapable without pushing through the chokepoint.

    And the most important thing about this !@#$ty design is that while most chokepoints on the map are just, you know chokepoints, this one has only one way in but two ways out. So Alliance can only push in, while Horde can always go around for either a flank attack or to send guerilla attackers to the other side of the map.

    If Horde zergs, it's basically a 50-50
    If Horde defends, it's heavily in their favor.


    If horde defends, alliance breaks apart afterwards and people start walking around like headless chickens. This is the reason for loss. And you can't prperly communicate in a fuking 40 man BG.

    That's why there are standards in BG's. And I believe horde has already ditched the idea of zerging a long time ago already. Becausee it doesn't bring them the win. So now alliance has to relearn how to engage or how to defend. That's how meta goes. But this doesn't change overnight because so many people are unaware or not willing to learn. And no communication.
    I do agree there are some aspects of AV that definitely favour the Horde side.
    There's been a few posts on here recently about how the layout is biased, and also how some horde servers play the farming game.
    That said, I feel the biggest issue is with the Alliance tactics - or lack of - and attitude.
    Most times you get 20-30 players just charging straight to the Galv / IBT / IBGY area and getting held up or farmed there. Allowing for AFKs that leaves only a few to actually try and do something else.

    I've had some great ideas but rarely get to put them into practice since it's easier to herd cats than organise a 40 man BG raid. I find it more and more frustrating that people aren't interested, just want a quick victory and leave at the first setback, want to be carried, sit AFK, or just charge straight at the first enemy they see. Not that these issues are specific to AV.
    But it's worse now than it's ever been, so much so that I've made my first post !

    I don't claim to be the best PVP around by any means, and everyone is entitled to play the game the way they see fit, but surely asking for teamwork / co-operation and making suggestions without abuse from some isn't too much to ask.
    Even if you have 39 other players who are convinced their way is best.
    I even have a macro now to say I'm not tanking (if a lone tank) Drek'thar and 2 or more warmasters up. No I'm not a coward, a noob or worse - I'm just not suicidal.

    Seen some of you guys in BGs quite often, either on my tank or one of my other 3 120's. Will wave if I see you :-)
    10/11/2018 16:55Posted by Skidmarkz

    That said, I feel the biggest issue is with the Alliance tactics - or lack of - and attitude.
    Most times you get 20-30 players just charging straight to the Galv / IBT / IBGY area and getting held up or farmed there. Allowing for AFKs that leaves only a few to actually try and do something else.


    This is one of the biggest parts of the problem. Even when pushing this area, people still don't get how important taking the graveyard is, leading to the Horde spawning right back on their blockade.

    I did have one group the other night where as soon as we saw the Horde camping the pass, we held back and turned into a staring match for 5 minutes. It was boring because neither side wanted to engage, because the Horde knew leaving would mean the Alliance could Zerg and the Alliance knew going in would result in getting farmed.

    Also interested to hear from more people on the Horde side, do you ever get these same problems with any Alliance teams making a blockade ?
    Good to see you Skidmarkz )

    Any suggestions put them here, be good to discuss the pros and cons.

    Been good again today, makes you wonder what has changed over the last three days. Dont think ive seen many german horde and not as much def at IB -maybe why its flavours us more, but had several cracking matches.

    However Horde were poor at times, and alliance poor but winning.

    Main gripes today- alliance cant attack healers, CC like hell but no help with killing them. Was going up to hanger - infront two ally riding up with a horde healer to the top. When i got there she helped heal the three horde that were deffing there-

    Demo was on duty keeping cannnons down, obviously thought done its job and started on the door - next moment 3 cannons up and blasting seige and other demo on door.

    Some Alliance cant work out when we should take IBGY its been ingrained in them thats its something we never should do, ever.

    Some still insist on going docks at start, one bg convinced eight to go with her, she was in bg today thankfully quiet.

    Alliance wiped at ib three times last night, was well into the fight and half horde had moved north, Ibgy there for the taking. but insist on filling ib to be slowely killed,

    some Insisted on killing galv today , 15 of them which resulted what was left of us being killed at fw first gy. We were about 140 in lead at time. ressed at snowfall, so 6 of us went north to def . they had 1 tower captured at db. long story but indirectly killing galv probably saved the day .

    My idea if Horde def is wait for them at sh, protect shgy. dont take snowfall.
    Get stealthers take IBGY when they come, push them once stealthers have IBGY.
    Dont matter if they go Balinda as long as we get by them. Then depends on horde move whether to recap , press ,deff

    Is others in Ally having good results in epic bgs?
    Just thinking back to Ashran way of spawning stuff with the fragments. Could making everything be able to be handed in using a single currency instead of all the different pieces in work better than the current system ?

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