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No, what I mean is that Blizzard released the scenario in the PTR, was showered with complaints from Night elf players that felt it wasn’t enough, and adjusted and turned up to eleven several aspects of it to appease the masses.

Basically everyone thought that the scenario was trash. Not just Nelf players.
14/11/2018 14:35Posted by Huopoh
No, what I mean is that Blizzard released the scenario in the PTR, was showered with complaints from Night elf players that felt it wasn’t enough, and adjusted and turned up to eleven several aspects of it to appease the masses.

Basically everyone thought that the scenario was trash. Not just Nelf players.


Not arguing against it. I just pointed out that beyond the initial (even if justified) outrage, some complaints at this point are beyond ridiculous.
14/11/2018 14:35Posted by Huopoh
Basically everyone thought that the scenario was trash. Not just Nelf players.
Thanks to red shirt guy on this point.
14/11/2018 14:47Posted by Zarao
Not arguing against it. I just pointed out that beyond the initial (even if justified) outrage, some complaints at this point are beyond ridiculous.


What would you say if let's say John J. Keeshan would make Rezan (ok, Rezan is dead, we can talk about Krag'wa) very angry, and with help from Flynn Fairwind will have a fight with both Krag'wa and Pa'ku? And both loa's will not be able to kill them, they wil leave unharmed.
No, what I mean is that Blizzard released the scenario in the PTR, was showered with complaints from Night elf players that felt it wasn’t enough, and adjusted and turned up to eleven several aspects of it to appease the masses.


I don't buy that - if that *is* what they did it'd be the first time they've ever done that to my knowledge, and the alternative (changed slightly to accomodate Blizz's original vision for the scenario) seems far more likely.

The complaints that become annoying, are nothing like that. They seem to be more in the line of “Blizzard hates Night elves because they don’t make Tyrande one shoot entire armies!”, or “How dare Blizzard give Forsaken a remote fighting chance or allow them to just flee with whatever troops they have left??? They should ALL be killed! I demand they make it possible!”.

Not even the most onsided scenario was delivered on those kind of terms.


The demands are difficult to sympathise with. The frustration and anger that gives rise to them isn't. People feel a lot of genuine affection for the Night Elves, myself included; watching Blizzard waste them for the sake of cheap drama, or turning them into jobbers for every other faction, is a constant annoyance.

I susp[ect none of the people complaining would've minded the Burning of Darnassus if they could see a point to it, but there isn't one. At best it's the Night Elves jobbing once again, at worst it's a horribly clumsy attempt to rinse out all the beauty and serenity of the Night Elves' culture and turn them into a !@#$ty, PG-13 ersatz of Warhammer's Wood Elves - or, gods forbid, yet another %^-*ing race of apologetic "noble savages" who have identity crises and whine about things and zzzzzzz.

Saurfang was in charge of the whole thing. To the point Sylvanas trusted him with the entire army and went solo to hunt down Malfurion. I think it leaned more towards the orc...


This is the same Saurfang who had to be talked into the plan by...

... yeah. Sylvanas' baby, like I said. The fact Darkshore is all blighted by the time we get there doesn't scream "Orc" to me.

Stormheim, comes to mind.


Oh yeah - Sylvanas lost her Valkyr, and all it cost the Alliance was a gunship with nearly all hands! The terrified, traumatised Worgen chattering to each other in that Alliance camp surrounded by Forsaken troopers look like real winners.

This. This is the crux.
My initial comment was addressed at THESE guys.
Don’t talk in past tense, certain players still argue about it with that mentality. That’s why I wondered what would it take for Blizzard to actually appease these guys.

(It was more of a rhetorical kind of question, as the obvious answer that comes to mind given the complaints is “Nothing but a literal step by step portrayal of exactly what they ask for”)


I'm sure there's a minority who'd only be satisfied if Tyrande became god of all the universe and Shandris Feathermoon spawned in every Horde town once an hour to Starfall everyone to death. Thing is, they're the minority. The reason we have people like me complaining alongside them and amplifying their voices is because the whole War of Thorns thing has thus far been handled in an unsatisfying way.

I honestly wouldn't mind the Horde chasing the Night Elves out of all Kalimdor in a permanent and final way, killing 90% of the Night Elves as they did so, provided it was done in a competent and compelling way that set up some future development for the faction (development that doesn't involve whiny emo "look what we've lost" vengeance-elf !@#$). When you burn down a tree because "lol drama", that !@#$ing sucks, and I'm going to tell people it %^-*ing sucks.
14/11/2018 15:21Posted by Ciptzt
What would you say if let's say John J. Keeshan would make Rezan (ok, Rezan is dead, we can talk about Krag'wa) very angry, and with help from Flynn Fairwind will have a fight with both Krag'wa and Pa'ku? And both loa's will not be able to kill them, they wil leave unharmed.


1) Nathanos isn’t a meme character.
2) Two Valkyr empower him. To the point they are trying to keep him alive. Not winning. Simply trying to buy some time.
3) As powerful as Malfurion or Tyrande are, they are not demigods. If any troll became the favoured one of any Loa, they would be just as powerful. This will bring some hate: Talanji can potentially be just as strong as Malfurion if Bwonsamdi wills it.
14/11/2018 15:45Posted by Owlsong
I don't buy that - if that *is* what they did it'd be the first time they've ever done that to my knowledge, and the alternative (changed slightly to accomodate Blizz's original vision for the scenario) seems far more likely.


They added a whole dialogue line because players complained Vol’jin was a bit of a prick back in SoO.
These changes aren’t even affecting the general development of the plot.

People felt Tyrande wasn’t powerful enough? Let’s just add random mobs for her to insta-kill.
People felt like Nathanos wasn’t powerful enough? Let’s add not one, but two valkyr.
Still not enough? Let’s give him a buff.
Tyrande not OP enough? Let’s add a random and unavoidable mechanic that insta-kills the player.

These are still minor changes. Things that only affect perception. And mechanics customised exclusively to address certain complaints.

And what I don’t like, is that even if there are many that take these gladly and with a good attitude, there are still some echo chamber about “Not enough, I want to feel even more superior”, “I want to punish them harder”.

14/11/2018 15:45Posted by Owlsong
The demands are difficult to sympathise with. The frustration and anger that gives rise to them isn't.


On that, we agree. It may have to do with being tired about sympathising about certain stuff.
It’s not as if the ones that usually argue these sort of things shy away from asking the opposite for any other race.
It gets harder to sympathise with some that apparently don’t do likewise.

But I get your point. I really do.

14/11/2018 15:45Posted by Owlsong
This is the same Saurfang who had to be talked into the plan by...

... yeah. Sylvanas' baby, like I said. The fact Darkshore is all blighted by the time we get there doesn't scream "Orc" to me.


Don’t know about that. A Good War screams orc all over the place.
In fact, even if Sylvanas found the idea of this war an agreeable one, it was Saurfang the one that came up with attacking Teldrassil.

14/11/2018 15:45Posted by Owlsong
Oh yeah - Sylvanas lost her Valkyr, and all it cost the Alliance was a gunship with nearly all hands! The terrified, traumatised Worgen chattering to each other in that Alliance camp surrounded by Forsaken troopers look like real winners.


It’s all a matter of perspective. The Forsaken were indeed defeated and felt like it in their side of the fence.
And what I don’t like, is that even if there are many that take these gladly and with a good attitude, there are still some echo chamber about “Not enough, I want to feel even more superior”, “I want to punish them harder”.

The interesting thing here is that they could avoid it by not having Nathanos there. Malfurion and Tyrande could destroy that base only to find that Nathanos left.

Lots of things Blizzard did, and made players angry, were not needed. By example: they wanted to level Alliance and Horde territories back in Cata. They could just add some territories for Horde, without humiliating Alliance players. And without SoO. And without WoD.
Are people still arguing whether or not the Night Elves were treated fairly in the new scenario?

They were not. Blizzard still has a long way to go to repay the Night Elves. Hopefully this is just the beginning.
14/11/2018 16:41Posted by Darvingar
Are people still arguing whether or not the Night Elves were treated fairly in the new scenario?

They were not. Blizzard still has a long way to go to repay the Night Elves. Hopefully this is just the beginning.


Couldn't agree more. Let's hope they have a strong showing against Azshara, and from then on, not left out of the loop again along with showing them regain some awesomness in all their areas of expertise (arcane, nature, divine, fel, hunting for their mage, druid, priest, demon hunting and sentinel/hutnress/warden groups)
14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
Only Ysera destroyed the temple and let it sink, yes, because of Hakkar, but even a Hakkar was ultimately not such a big threat to the world.


Hakkar's blood plague was able to wipe out the cities. That is the newest lore that appeared in BfA. He is the entire reason why blood trolls even exist.

14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
Cenarius has fought against Ragnaros, against thousands and thousands of demons, revived entire forests, once fought in the nightmare, yes, certainly Sethrallis is not a weak loa, but she is just that, a loa.


She is a Wild God too, she is in pantheon of Animal Gods.

14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
If I may compare here: The most powerful Wild Gods did in the fight against the Legion (WOTA) together, many died .. a Loa .. was not there.


That is not the only thing that Chronicles didn't cover and left people to assume stuff.
My Headcannon is that major invasion was happening on nelf lands, not on entire Azeroth. The main portal was in well of eternity after all. So everyone nearby participated. Trolls were alienated by nelves themselves and Loas assist only those who ask for help. Celestials also didn't help at all.

*shrugs*

14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
Ouh jaaa, you compare a DEMON LORD, one of the most powerful creatures ever, personally authorized by Sargeras with ... a general of the Old Gods. ~ ~ This is a comparison like .. cherry with melon, both is a fruit, but one thing is able to satisfy you .. the other is an appetite.


Not at all. C'Thraxxi generals are also a great threat and extremely hard to defeat.
Archimond was a great Sorcerer but he was defeated in WoD cannonically by mortals too.
Besides Marlone also didn't kill Archi in the end so again how is that different to Sethraliss standing up to Mythrax?
14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
And you know that because?


I know it by watching game since Vanilla, I saw transformation of each High Loa Priest, From Zul'Gurub to Zul'Drak and their power boost, Lots of trivia in game and in the Vol'Jin's book.
So yeah I fail to see how Goldrinn is any different to Shirvallah for example or Akali.

14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
Even with shadow hunters this was not formulated so that they had big problems there.

Not really, they need to maintain balance between spirits otherwise it would drive them insane, this is why Vol'Jin found similarities in monk style and shadow hunter style.
You also was able to see the harships Vol'Jin had to go through to even get approval of Loa. First starting with the Judgement and then in his own book where Loas were testing his spirit by trashing him.

Heck, after Vol'Jin's book a lot of people reviewed that this should be ideal option for character to grant boon. To make character go through really nasty experiences pushing them to limits, and not just suddenly accepting them.

14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
Shaddra does not dare to touch a child of Cenarius, has mad schisss before the children of Cenarius..na, why? Because Cenarius would kill her if she puts her hand to his children.


That part is really odd, Shadra is very odd Loa and truth to be told I wanted to learn more about her.
She is widely worshipped, byt Zandalari, Gurubashi(and Darkspears) and by Forset trolls. No other Loa has such a big reach. She can channel both light and shadow powers as it was shown in her High Priestess.

And yet Shadra is not only very vulnerable, but that forest bimbo stuff doesn't make much sense to mee, especially after Val;Sharah where moonkins were melting dryads alive and Cenarius didn't react. Isn't that odd?
But then again you also have Kimbul, Sethraliss, Krag'wa, Gonk and Rezan (yes, he was obliberating foes on his path, befire he stepped on trap) displayed a huge power.

14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
I can understand why you do not want to see it, but it remains to say that the chronicles are true. The most powerful Wild Gods..are the Ancient and the Pandarias one.


It's not that I don't want to see it, it's the game that multiple time proved that they're the same party. even devs said that the deities from Pantheon (Gonk, Kimbul, etc) are the Wild Gods, which is also something that I didn't think was true simply because not only Loas have much more vast power options, but because of their nature and behaviour too.

But I am willing to agree on disagreeing.

14/11/2018 07:45Posted by Zahir
Funfact on the edge, not every Wild God can talk, this ability was given by Freya to certain.

I suppose Ancients were purposely created by Freya? While Loas willed themselves to existance? How would you then explain their ability to communicate with their woshippers? But as I said Chronicless didn't cover a lot of things.
14/11/2018 16:41Posted by Darvingar
Are people still arguing whether or not the Night Elves were treated fairly in the new scenario?

They were not. Blizzard still has a long way to go to repay the Night Elves. Hopefully this is just the beginning.


Life isnt fair. What is this equality madness. If for every wrong they are forced to give them a right or treat, the story will never naturally develop.
"Oh we lost a city so the horde has to lose one too"
"we got a race with more classes so they need one too!"
"our city is a new raid, next patch we need to get a raid kicking their but on their land"

This formula becomes borign and predictable after a while
15/11/2018 14:48Posted by Xiaopaw
Life isnt fair. What is this equality madness. If for every wrong they are forced to give them a right or treat, the story will never naturally develop.
"Oh we lost a city so the horde has to lose one too"
"we got a race with more classes so they need one too!"
"their city is a new raid, next patch we need to get a raid kicking their but on their land"

This formula becomes borign and predictable after a while
If they would do nothing against that, they would lose more suscribers. It's boring, but it is fair kinda way. Undercity was kinda nothing, thats why Tyrande gets some character progression.
15/11/2018 14:48Posted by Xiaopaw
Life isnt fair.

We are talking about a game.

15/11/2018 14:48Posted by Xiaopaw
What is this equality madness.

People do not want to be treated fairly? What is this madness?

15/11/2018 14:48Posted by Xiaopaw
If for every wrong they are forced to give them a right or treat, the story will never naturally develop.

It is quite easy to speak down to people demanding better treatment from a privileged position. This is not what people are asking for. They want simply any level of vindication. Night Elves lost their home, countless civilians, most of their settlements and were completely humiliated. Do you not understand that after suffering so much, people who are invested in their story would like to get something in exchange, or at least inflict a similar injury upon the Horde? Why should the Horde be the only one to win such massive victories, while the Alliance barely get any vindication? Why is the story written to grant one faction massive favors on the expense of the other faction?
15/11/2018 14:56Posted by Darvingar
Night Elves lost their home


They are fighting back for it...

15/11/2018 14:56Posted by Darvingar
countless civilians, most of their settlements


They are not the only race that had to suffer that in history...

15/11/2018 14:56Posted by Darvingar
and were completely humiliated


Not completely, even if they are indeed disliked by the devs.

15/11/2018 14:56Posted by Darvingar
Why should the Horde be the only one to win such massive victories, while the Alliance barely get any vindication?


Because the Alliance isn't about vindication/revenge but justice through suffering...if you play it you should be aware of that.

15/11/2018 14:56Posted by Darvingar
Why is the story written to grant one faction massive favors on the expense of the other faction?


It's not a massive favor for the Horde...they are not winning the war and could fall into infighting once again because of Sylvanas just like Garrosh back then.
15/11/2018 14:56Posted by Darvingar
It is quite easy to speak down to people demanding better treatment from a privileged position.


Priviledged position? LEts see... How many Chiefs did we lose... how many did the alliance? <-- Thats a point that was not "balanced" and I find it good so. Or else the alliance needs to lose 2 more kings (soon 3). That would feel forced. Understand what I mean?

15/11/2018 14:56Posted by Darvingar
Night Elves lost their home, countless civilians, most of their settlements and were completely humiliated


Again, if it is a mirror effect that everyone wants, where are the dead kings? where is a city raid against alliance, where does an allied race leader die, why isnt alliance fleet destroyed during the horde war campaign. What about the cinematics? I want more Sylvanas and Genn screentime and less pretty boy Anduin and the sturdy old orc (sounds like a gay adult movie).
Where are our Superheroes with superheroe powers? we are far behind on that

Its madness. Sometimes we need to leave it where it is.
I mean we Pandaren are left in a corner since our addon and thats fine for me. The alliance not losing as many leaders is ok to a certain point.
Us not having superheroes while alliance getting more is something that hits me in the chest just because it makes the story more silly. But do I want a dc vs marvel Azeroth? Hell no- (Rest in peace Stan lee)
Priviledged position? LEts see... How many Chiefs did we lose... how many did the alliance? <-- Thats a point that was not "balanced" and I find it good so. Or else the alliance needs to lose 2 more kings (soon 3). That would feel forced. Understand what I mean?

No. I do not understand what you mean. Nothing you said had any meaning.

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
Again, if it is a mirror effect that everyone wants,

No one wants a mirror...where did you even get that idea?

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
where are the dead kings

In their graves?

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
where is a city raid against alliance

In the Zandalari intro and the BfA pre-expansion event.

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
where does an allied race leader die

Do you think I know the future?

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
why isnt alliance fleet destroyed during the horde war campaign.

It is...at the very start.

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
I want more Sylvanas and Genn screentime and less pretty boy Anduin and the sturdy old orc

Completely irrelevant.

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
Its madness.

Definetly how I would describe your rant, yes.

15/11/2018 15:11Posted by Xiaopaw
Sometimes we need to leave it where it is.

Or maybe, just maybe, we can request better story-telling from the developers?

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