Pserver mechanics

Classic Discussion
So, like a bunch of people here, I played Vanilla on release. Quit after TBC, and only ever picked up the game again in the Pserver scene, which was cool, but I think there are a lot of misconceptions regarding things that work a certain way on private, and never did on live.

I think it'd be good if we made a list of differences, to sort this out.

1. Sitting to trigger crit mechanics works on P, didn't on vanilla.

2. Frontstabbing is a thing on P, wasn't on vanilla (I think).

3. Melee DPS is always way higher on P.

4. Warrior charge has always behaved oddly on mangos core

5. The current trend in Pservers is getting 4-5 ony kills per lockout by having 35 people die and leave before the ki ll. Was this possible back then?

And so on. Anyone wanna add to the list?
I've had this concern as well since original vanilla was such a long time ago and some people have been playing on p-servers for years so certain mechanics can get a bit tricky to remember.

But at least Blizzard has that internal 1.12.1 reference build in working order and it should have all the original mechanics, quirks and features of vanilla so I'm hopeful about the authenticity of the final product.
Sitting to guarantee crit was very much a thing in vanilla, now wheter a crit triggered this way proced on crit things such as enrage and the like from talents may be a different story.
Shouldnt you post bugreports flr your private server on their forum?
It is a bit messy to make a list of things that are "wrong" on pservers if this list is just based on your 14y old memories...

1. Was definetly a thing in Vanilla. The Paladin oneshotting Kazzak was done with /sit stacking in a duel. They fixed the endless stacks of Reckoning but sit always worked for a 100% crit. I can even remember looking for sitting/drinking casters on my Rogue to oneshot them.

2. How can you tell? Did you actually try that back in 2004? The fact that almost nobody was familiar with does not mean it was not in the game.

3. Pretty much the same as 2. Most people back then did not know anything about gearing properly. I bet things like calculating crit-cap and stacking weapon skill was done by no more than 1% of the melees back then... If at all. This is just common knowledge nowadays.

4. Pathfinding always has been one of the hardest things for pservers to implement correctly and it got changed so much throughout the last years.

5. While this is not directly abusing any bug, I expect Blizzard to deny such things from scratch.

Long story short: you don't know how things exactly were back then, so why make a list of things that are "wrong" exclusively based on assumptions.
A lot of people are mixing there Pserver experience with the Vanila,and not to mention some people want for Blizz to emulate server lags and clonky mechanics as front stabing,and i thing a line must be drawn some where,as Madseason said in his show.
13/11/2018 15:08Posted by Blurey
A lot of people are mixing there Pserver experience with the Vanila,and not to mention some people want for Blizz to emulate server lags and clonky mechanics as front stabing,and i thing a line must be drawn some where,as Madseason said in his show.


And this line is defined by what? Trying to bring back an experience as authentic as possible includes a lot of things that seem a little weird nowadays, but are sometimes a huge deal in terms of gameplay/charme. Things like Wall jumping, WSG terrain jumps (not those that put you in unreachable spots), moonwalking, Rogue Vanish bug and many more come to mind. These are sometimes essential for the authentic experience, so where do you draw that line?
13/11/2018 15:16Posted by Dürkest
These are sometimes essential for the authentic experience


There's nothing essential about having bugs/exploitable bugs in Classic whatsoever.
Ye lol ....yes to original mechanics, no to original bugs.

Is that simple.
In Vanilla, sitting was an automatic crit, but they had coded it so crits sustained this way didn’t proc abilities with the “on crit” feature, such as Enrage or Reckoning. Probably because they realised how ridiculous it would be. I guess those doing the emulation didn’t give it as much thought.

But there were several latency exploits in Vanilla. One of them could let you glitch the game by flooding the server with /sit commands and have it proc sometimes anyway. Another more known one was the “lag attack” where an enemy player would lag around the area, making targeting him very difficult.

Hopefully the modern infrastructure is secure enough to not be compromised by such latency exploits.
All your points are entirely false. And so far the Classic demo has been more buggy and unauthentic than any Vanilla Pserver I’ve ever played on. But I’m sure it’s gonna be perfect 7 months from now lol.
13/11/2018 15:07Posted by Dürkest
It is a bit messy to make a list of things that are "wrong" on pservers if this list is just based on your 14y old memories...

1. Was definetly a thing in Vanilla. The Paladin oneshotting Kazzak was done with /sit stacking in a duel. They fixed the endless stacks of Reckoning but sit always worked for a 100% crit. I can even remember looking for sitting/drinking casters on my Rogue to oneshot them.

2. How can you tell? Did you actually try that back in 2004? The fact that almost nobody was familiar with does not mean it was not in the game.

3. Pretty much the same as 2. Most people back then did not know anything about gearing properly. I bet things like calculating crit-cap and stacking weapon skill was done by no more than 1% of the melees back then... If at all. This is just common knowledge nowadays.

4. Pathfinding always has been one of the hardest things for pservers to implement correctly and it got changed so much throughout the last years.

5. While this is not directly abusing any bug, I expect Blizzard to deny such things from scratch.

Long story short: you don't know how things exactly were back then, so why make a list of things that are "wrong" exclusively based on assumptions.


13/11/2018 17:32Posted by Xumo
All your points are entirely false. And so far the Classic demo has been more buggy and unauthentic than any Vanilla Pserver I’ve ever played on. But I’m sure it’s gonna be perfect 7 months from now lol.


It is funny those who are loudest jackass trolls advocate and believe Vanilla World of Warcraft is how "Private servers are" , no wonder why they are delusional min/maxers living in their different world.

MR Dürkest

1- The very same day one-shotting Kazzak (it was early patches too) got big big hotfix and you couldn't anymore stack unlimited stacks and you couldn't anymore /sit to get stack from crit , you would eat the crit but wouldn't gain stack , so yes , it is private server thing to /sit macro!

2- Yes i was there playing back then and no , you couldn't get at any cost frontstabbing, it was tested 100 times too!

3- Most , doesn't mean "Everyone" , there was big theorycrafters back then who did min/max every single piece , not in early days of Vanilla , but definitely in Naxx , we can see Warrior Patchwerk DPS as Fury with every single best piece and best stat and best consume that could possibly exist , he could do maximum 1400 dps , but not even for entire fight.

In P-servers you can find Warriors doing 2000 DPS without any efforts using high end gear thanks to your "illusion that Pservers are Vanilla".

4- i don't care about charges but i agree they aren't proper in pservers.

5- Blizzard will instant hotfix such thing as they always did in the past!

MR Xumo

You compare DEMO with some P-Server RELEASE , why don't you instead say DEMO was buggy , look at P-Server BETA before they release how disaster was and how Original RELEASE will be?!

But yeah , Trolls like you comparing Frogs and Cabbages will always be the same for them.
The only way to backstab a mob on blizzard servers was to either have it be tanked by someone else, stun, blind, or gouge. (only 1 backstab with the latter 2)

It wasn't possible to backstab a non-cc'ed, facetanked mob, I remember trying it so hard all the time until I gave up. It also hasn't to do with lag because the positioning informations happen on the server and are given to your client.

Mobs are programmed to instantly (<0ms) turn with your character (on the server), it's impossible to get behind the 180 degree check other than if the programming is faulty.
The point is exactly to work from player memory to try and figure what is and isn't different. Some things are obvious, others aren't.

So, uh, basic google searching skills confirms a whole bunch of 'em.

1. , for instance. https://web.archive.org/web/20060501002411/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=446313&p=2

https://web.archive.org/web/20061206141810/http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm

2. I mean, proving a negative is kind of a !@#$%, but hit up the ol' interwebz and the consensus is it wasn't a thing.

3. this the vid? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA

These things are true - what i'd like to know is what more private server wonkyness has gotten ingrained into the community as truth from back then.

Don't get me wrong - pservers are cool, but they aren't vanilla. At all - they're their own beast. The point of this is so that we can provide proper feedback instead of "hey, I can't trigger my crit talents by sitting!" or "why can't i frontstab in the demo??".

All your points are entirely false. And so far the Classic demo has been more buggy and unauthentic than any Vanilla Pserver I’ve ever played on. But I’m sure it’s gonna be perfect 7 months from now lol.


Oh yeah, Pservers are 100% commited to authenticity, like 10 minute rare mob pet spawns that are balanced pre 1.9 while people have 1.12 talents..
13/11/2018 19:56Posted by Visgoth
The point is exactly to work from player memory to try and figure what is and isn't different. Some things are obvious, others aren't.

So, uh, basic google searching skills confirms a whole bunch of 'em.

1. , for instance. https://web.archive.org/web/20060501002411/http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-paladin&t=446313&p=2

https://web.archive.org/web/20061206141810/http://blue.cardplace.com/cache/wow-paladin/1069149.htm

2. I mean, proving a negative is kind of a !@#$%, but hit up the ol' interwebz and the consensus is it wasn't a thing.

3. this the vid? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA

These things are true - what i'd like to know is what more private server wonkyness has gotten ingrained into the community as truth from back then.

Don't get me wrong - pservers are cool, but they aren't vanilla. At all - they're their own beast. The point of this is so that we can provide proper feedback instead of "hey, I can't trigger my crit talents by sitting!" or "why can't i frontstab in the demo??".

All your points are entirely false. And so far the Classic demo has been more buggy and unauthentic than any Vanilla Pserver I’ve ever played on. But I’m sure it’s gonna be perfect 7 months from now lol.


Oh yeah, Pservers are 100% commited to authenticity, like 10 minute rare mob pet spawns that are balanced pre 1.9 while people have 1.12 talents..


Since you posted the Video , i believe you were referring to my post?

3. this the vid? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA


You can see he has "Maximum 1550 DPS" with all CD , he ENDED being 1250 DPS!
Pservers goes up to 2000 DPS without any efforts or Consumes unlike the Person on the Video Min/Maxing every single !@#$ he got.

You can see on your own , how inaccurate Warrior DPS is on Pservers compare to Original Vanilla :)

https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Bosses/Default.aspx

See those numbers and compare them to the Video you posted by the Original Vanilla "min max person who have every single thing maxed but ended up doing 1250 dps.

And then we are again hearing those "tin foil out of thin air" stories about Hybrids doing lesser dps than Warriors, evidence is those Private Servers and Trolls/Streamers/Forum posters brainwashing the whole community , taking those servers as an example!

Oh yeah, Pservers are 100% commited to authenticity, like 10 minute rare mob pet spawns that are balanced pre 1.9 while people have 1.12 talents..


That's not even Vanilla :)
If we talk private servers we can narrow it down to 2 names, every other project is just so off the charts that it's not even worth bringing them into the discussion.

Those 2 are:

- Twinstar's Kronos servers
- Nostalrius and it's offsprings Elysium and Light's Hope

Kronos is completely non-blizzlike (all objects provide LoS, weapon proficiency leveling is super fast, spell coeffecients are off, etc)

Elysium and Light's Hope are actually what comes closest to blizz vanilla, just by my experiences from playing there, but yet IT STILL HASN'T FELT GENUINE. That means while the basic framework that makes you go ''Ah ! VANILLA WOW ! is there, there are still more or less small details that when combined together distort the experience.

We are going down a dangerous path if we now come and use p.servers as a tool to judge the genuinity of Classic WoW, blizzards own creation.,If we talk private servers we can narrow it down to 2 names, every other project is just so off the charts that's it's not even worth bringing them into the discussion.
If we talk private servers we can narrow it down to 2 names, every other project is just so off the charts that's it's not even worth bringing them into the discussion.

Those 2 are:

- Twinstar's Kronos servers
- Nostalrius and it's offsprings Elysium and Light's Hope

Kronos is completely non-blizzlike (all objects provide LoS, weapon proficiency leveling is super fast, spell coeffecients are off, etc)

Elysium and Light's Hope are actually what comes closest to blizz vanilla, just by my experiences from playing there, but yet IT STILL HASN'T FELT GENUINE. That means while the basic framework that makes you go ''Ah ! VANILLA WOW ! is there, there are still more or less small details that when combined together distort the experience.

We are going down a dangerous path if we now come and use p.servers as a tool to judge the genuinity of Classic WoW, blizzards own creation.


I think this is a very good point. A lot of players when talking about Private servers use the most extreme examples of old really buggy servers.

See Killerduki's post above f.ex where he talks about warriors doing 2000 dps. Thats a complete misrepresentation of private servers. You will never find these kinds of numbers on the most recent ones, so its pretty clear he hasnt played on any in a long time.

It's also very important to distinguish between the differences that are caused by mechanics and values being implemented differently, and differences that are caused by 13 years of evolving metas. The video Duki linked to shows us that the warrior is missing a lot of buffs (15% melee haste being the most major one). We also dont know what kind of debuffs are present on the boss, and the difference between a bosskill where nobody care about debuffs (common in 2006) and a bosskill where the debuff slots are optimized for a stacked melee group will have a huge impact on the total damage done.

Like literally nobody disputes the statement that private servers have bugs and un-blizzlike mechanics. But they are pretty damn close.
I don't doubt that some numbers on private servers must be off, but people understimate how much min-maxing has improved in current years with speedkill theorycrafting, or how bad min-maxing and gameplay was at high level guilds during vanilla compared to now.

Even still there are some wonky bugs or exploits that find their ways into private servers that skew the numbers, the same is true of the classic demo however and private servers are closer to vanilla than classic is in its current forum.
13/11/2018 20:21Posted by Flexidia
If we talk private servers we can narrow it down to 2 names, every other project is just so off the charts that's it's not even worth bringing them into the discussion.

Those 2 are:

- Twinstar's Kronos servers
- Nostalrius and it's offsprings Elysium and Light's Hope

Kronos is completely non-blizzlike (all objects provide LoS, weapon proficiency leveling is super fast, spell coeffecients are off, etc)

Elysium and Light's Hope are actually what comes closest to blizz vanilla, just by my experiences from playing there, but yet IT STILL HASN'T FELT GENUINE. That means while the basic framework that makes you go ''Ah ! VANILLA WOW ! is there, there are still more or less small details that when combined together distort the experience.

We are going down a dangerous path if we now come and use p.servers as a tool to judge the genuinity of Classic WoW, blizzards own creation.


You will never find these kinds of numbers on the most recent ones, so its pretty clear he hasnt played on any in a long time.


https://legacyplayers.com/Raids/Bosses/Default.aspx

"newest and most recent"

Not even Patchwerk which is Tank/Spank for max dps:

Nighthaven (elys)

Blackwing Lair
Firemaw Jizzel (1489.3)

Northdale (lh)

Molten Core
Shazzrah Zulp (1628.4)

Sure , "That's a complete misrepresentation of private servers." .
I sincerely doubt that Classic can come close to the authenticity of servers like Nostalrius or LH. I’d like to see it happen, but it won’t.

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