Learn to Ask!

General
This is something I brought up in another thread but I feel it deserves its own thread. One of the biggest problems I have with the community right now isn't necessarily that people are bad and dragging me down, but that people don't ask about things. I had a classic case of this yesterday:

I tanked a heroic Underrot last night (I was bored and the CtA reward was up). First trash pack, a dps dies to Savage Cleave because they didn't move out of the way. Their immediate reaction was not to ask "why did I die?" or "why did I take so much damage?" but instead to say "omg no heals" and attempt to kick the healer for being a "noob".

Later on in the dungeon people got caught by the Maddening Gaze (the fear from the big mobs before the last boss), ended up pulling a bunch of trash and we wiped. At this point I knew for a fact that nobody else in the group knew what was going on, or why we died, so I said in chat "would anyone like to know why we wiped there?" No reply. Nothing. Everyone stayed completely silent. All they had to do was speak up and say "I don't know, please explain" and I would have explained it to them.

This is the kind of attitude that results in players going into M+ who are completely clueless, and their "solution" isn't to learn how the dungeons work but to just get more gear.

Learn to ask! If you die in a dungeon, particularly if you are the only person in the group who died, ask yourself why you died. If you can't figure it out yourself then ask the group. Staying silent hoping the rest of the group won't notice IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU.

Roughly 90% of the abilities directed at non-tank players are completely avoidable, either by dodging, interrupting or dispelling buffs/debuffs. I can only think of 1 occasion where cc is unavoidable in bfa dungeons, and that's from the big water elementals at the beginning of Shrine of the Storm. Everything else I can think of, from either trash or bosses, is avoidable.
Hmmm "would anyone like to know why we wiped there?" Got no response?

I wonder why...
Thats the way of the dps. They lose dps if they interupt, if they have to move, if they have to CC etc. Thats why DPS meters can be !@#$, because sometimes things that are not pure dps is more worth.
Anyways, they read their guides, specc/class guides not dungeon guides, dont use their head at all but let the guide make all the desitions for them (where everything centers souly around dps). Then they join a group and the tunnelsight starts.

This is the world we live in.
When I play healer and ppl die, I anticipate a comment but now and again another group member will say to the dps they play badly and it’s not lack of heals or bad tanking. But what is funny is not a word whole dungeon or raid but as soon as gear drops you get whispers, I am sure ppl would mug you if they could, it’s the new trend sadly.
13/10/2018 12:48Posted by Nefaryas
Hmmm "would anyone like to know why we wiped there?" Got no response?

I wonder why...


Clearly I'm missing something here. Care to explain?
Good post. Upvoted!
I think the main problem when it comes to trash mechanics is that the death recap does not really help at all as the dungeon journal only really explains bosses.

If I die on a raidboss and do not know why, I can look at the recap look what I took damage from and then read through that ability in the journal to understand it better, maybe the guide I watched skipped over it or I just did not get it properly.

Trash mechanics do not really have that luxury sadly.

Maddening gaze in this example is very easy to avoid but say you never did the dungeon and get hit by it, if I hover over the ability in my death recap all I get is a damage value, nothing else.

It would be nice to be able to say hover over it and it tells me what the ability I took damage from does, though given Blizzard's policy lately when it comes to any tooltips that seems like an impossible ask :/
13/10/2018 13:00Posted by Worzel
When I play healer and ppl die, I anticipate a comment but now and again another group member will say to the dps they play badly and it’s not lack of heals or bad tanking. But what is funny is not a word whole dungeon or raid but as soon as gear drops you get whispers, I am sure ppl would mug you if they could, it’s the new trend sadly.


In fairness, I think you yourself could probably change the atmosphere.

Whenever I join a group (HC or Mythic) I always say hi, and sometimes ask how people's evening are going. Sometimes no one responds, but I think it psychologically makes them start considering you a bit more as a human than just as some pixels.

With this, I've never had someone complain about my healing, a part from one time where I accidentally didn't target the tank during a first pull and accidentally spent the whole time healing myself and wondering why tank was getting so few heals. That got me scolded, but only really by a post of healing received meter and an ellipsis, but that was my fault, really.
I was tanking Underrot +11 2 days ago and people had like 900 score in this group. I know some nice pulls and stuff so i was confident with the dungeon. First pull - 2 dps die to sanguine feast. I didn't even know that it can kill you, I always stood out of the black thing because it's 5 yards range. Second pull, they don't kill the add and don't interrupt the blood bolts. This results in me taking 2 blood bolts at the same time for 180k damage within half a second and flop from stagger before my global was off.

Dungeons really require you to do stuff right this time and to communicate. If you don't know every mob and pull, ur gonna deplete. That's why it's important to ask.

I was doing another key yesterday with a group of french people that were pulling a lot and saying "kill the ghuun add last". People just don't know better and they don't learn. That's why R.IO might get obnoxious in the future, because a +10 isn't any different than a +12. You wipe from the same !@#$ in a +10, a lack of interrupt, lack of cc, standing in crap. The only difference is a slight damage and healing requirement.

Even in a +6 it is close to impossible to recover huge fails. People don't realize how much there is to learn, because in legion it was just the tank pulling, stunning the crap out of it and nuking the trash. Now it's not like this anymore.

It's not just the tank and the healer that need to know the dungeon, watch a video of a +10 done in time to know how to deal with the trash, the dps have to know it too, but they don't. Majority of dps don't want any responsibility. But the 180k hit from the boss from a spammable ability in a +11 taught me that. You need the entire team to be on the same page.
13/10/2018 13:02Posted by Midnightfist
13/10/2018 12:48Posted by Nefaryas
Hmmm "would anyone like to know why we wiped there?" Got no response?

I wonder why...


Clearly I'm missing something here. Care to explain?


Honestly, it reads as being a bit patronising. Like something your dad would say after you broke a window whilst playing football when you were a little kid. Remember that tone can read very different to how you mean it so either people will fob you off by ignoring the patronising "dad" comment or respond with complete toxicity, this time you appear to be lucky because your group didn't include anyone who snapped back at you.
13/10/2018 13:20Posted by Nefaryas
13/10/2018 13:02Posted by Midnightfist
...

Clearly I'm missing something here. Care to explain?


Honestly, it reads as being a bit patronising. Like something your dad would say after you broke a window whilst playing football when you were a little kid. Remember that tone can read very different to how you mean it so either people will fob you off by ignoring the patronising "dad" comment or respond with complete toxicity, this time you appear to be lucky because your group didn't include anyone who snapped back at you.


I see where you are coming from, but to be brutally honest by this time I had lost all respect for the group. That outburst from one of the dps at the beginning was something I'd expect from a child, so I treated them like a child.
Thats the way of the dps. They lose dps if they interupt, if they have to move, if they have to CC etc. Thats why DPS meters can be !@#$, because sometimes things that are not pure dps is more worth.

This is the world we live in.


I was in an instance once with my mage, moving as you said, interrupting spells as you said... and they kicked me because of my low DPS. The instances/raids are measured by damage, not by skill. The real skilled person in the area is the healer who has to heal all of us pr*ks.
Healers fault....
13/10/2018 14:05Posted by Merenwen
Thats the way of the dps. They lose dps if they interupt, if they have to move, if they have to CC etc. Thats why DPS meters can be !@#$, because sometimes things that are not pure dps is more worth.

This is the world we live in.


I was in an instance once with my mage, moving as you said, interrupting spells as you said... and they kicked me because of my low DPS. The instances/raids are measured by damage, not by skill. The real skilled person in the area is the healer who has to heal all of us pr*ks.


Interrupts are off gcd hit gud scrub.... ranged never fking help with interrupts
You dont ask stuff in pug content. Thats the rule... basically.

You ask something, there is high chance that you get blamed for everything. Possibly kicked.

It is simply safety to not ask.
13/10/2018 14:37Posted by Seranda
You dont ask stuff in pug content. Thats the rule... basically.

You ask something, there is high chance that you get blamed for everything. Possibly kicked.

It is simply safety to not ask.


I have never known anyone to get kicked for asking a question. I have also never been kicked when I asked a question. Have you?
13/10/2018 14:43Posted by Midnightfist
13/10/2018 14:37Posted by Seranda
You dont ask stuff in pug content. Thats the rule... basically.

You ask something, there is high chance that you get blamed for everything. Possibly kicked.

It is simply safety to not ask.


I have never known anyone to get kicked for asking a question. I have also never been kicked when I asked a question. Have you?

"Hi first time here, anything special I should know?"

"Just pull."

*Group wipes due to player not knowing information that wasn't in the Dungeon Journal*

"Kick the noob."

*Everyone clicks Yes"

*Player has been removed from your group*

I've seen this happen lots of times.
Someone doesn't know any special tactics that are part of a strategy lots of players use and gets blamed for not knowing it beforehand.

So I rarely make it known it's my first time in an instance.
I quickly glance over the Dungeon Journal, and that's it.
There's bad on all sides when it comes to this, people naturally seem to be walking into dungeons with a condescending attitude towards others and no one will accept their own faults.

What I find works is just randomly throwing in little things like "Remember to avoid the dark circles" or "X mob needs interrupting to stop us being feared", its a helpful tip rather then asking questions which are going to cause fights.
9/10 times the group tends to be fine. I usually suffer groups not vote kicking people out but just leaving one after another.
This Mage ragequit her own key because our tank didn’t know the placement for doing Rezzan, which resulted in a couple wipes. Instead of layout down some info the second time around she goes “OMG” and leaves.

I get it. It’s not your ‘job’ to teach mechanics, but it certainly helps throwing out some advice if someone needs it.

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