Addons - My biggest fear for Classic!

Classic Discussion
Classic offers Blizzard the opportunity to experiment with ‘What If’s?’ in design choices, and not allowing Add-Ons would be an interesting one, one reason being that Add-Ons are primarily for ‘serious players’ and an oft-heard complaint about WoW is that over the course of the game too much focus has been on both the ultra-casual and ‘serious players’.

So it would be interesting to see what would happen regarding the build-up of the community if Add-Ons weren’t allowed. Will it mean less min-maxxing? Less focus on racing to Current Cap and complaints about Class Balance in Raid environments? Time would tell.

Note that, going by MMo-Champ they will already be warping the community make-up by giving extra gold at max level for completing Quests (zipping to Cap made more attractive, less need for Dungeon grind for coin probably leading to fewer Dungeon opportunities for lower levels and fewer Rare BoE’s etc. available - why grind Gnomer or Uldaman for coin if you can just spam Repeatable Quests for Gold?) so the ‘Classic was for the tough cookies - so give us AddOns to lube the game!’ - crowd will probably be served as they were on retail.
Just a question: What if Classic didn't support and allowed a single addon, would that be a gamebreaker for anyone, and how good or bad do you think it would be for the Classic experience itself?

I personly wouldn't mind it at all if addons were just blocked/disabled for Classic because I think it would be best to keep the game "clean" in the gameplay.
Here's a history lesson: LFD didn't really become popular in WoW until Blizzard added crossrealming and instant teleports to dungeons (End of WotLK). THAT was the main reason people begun using LFD seriously. Without the two, trade chat was the main party building tool.
27/10/2018 09:13Posted by Bloedelf
Just a question: What if Classic didn't support and allowed a single addon, would that be a gamebreaker for anyone, and how good or bad do you think it would be for the Classic experience itself?

You need a threat meter to play any serious group content. Some classes pretty much need at that point simple timer addons for their abilities. Plus a full raid frame for healers. Basic things that were available even back then.
No gear score addon should be allowed!
No quest helper!
No raid assist kind of addons where the addon is telling you everything, when the boss is doing this and that, where to stay, when to move, where to move, when to scratch your !@#.
No search for players/grouping/lfg addons!
27/10/2018 11:57Posted by Bigkeg
27/10/2018 09:13Posted by Bloedelf
Just a question: What if Classic didn't support and allowed a single addon, would that be a gamebreaker for anyone, and how good or bad do you think it would be for the Classic experience itself?

You need a threat meter to play any serious group content. Some classes pretty much need at that point simple timer addons for their abilities. Plus a full raid frame for healers. Basic things that were available even back then.
You don't really 'need' any addon.
What you 'need' is players that enjoy learning and tackling challenging content together and maybe developers who stop purpousely creating holes in their work for addon writers to patch up.
27/10/2018 09:13Posted by Bloedelf
Just a question: What if Classic didn't support and allowed a single addon, would that be a gamebreaker for anyone, and how good or bad do you think it would be for the Classic experience itself?

I personly wouldn't mind it at all if addons were just blocked/disabled for Classic because I think it would be best to keep the game "clean" in the gameplay.

Well no one is ever going to clear Naxxramas for one. Good luck killing Kel'Thuzad without range indicator or ability timer AddOns. Fact of the matter is that the existence of AddOns like BigWigs allowed Blizzard to create more interesting and challenging raid content. I believe they've even said as much during one of the recent AMA's on Reddit. If you strip away all AddOns it starts becoming a hell of a slog starting with AQ because raid encounters started being designed around people having this information presented to them in an efficient manner.

Do people really think that stripping away AddOns will change the way people tackle raids? Hell no. Serious guilds will still do their thing and less succesful guilds will still struggle. I'm not sure if people complaining about raid AddOns have ever raided in Vanilla, because AddOns don't suddenly strip away the need to learn and perfect encounters with your entire raid. The amount of claims being made in this thread just out of people's personal dislike of AddOns is absolutely baffling. And I don't even like using AddOns myself.

People blow this stuff way out of proportion, it baffles me. They look back at Vanilla with their current WoW mindset and think AddOns will destroy everything. Unknowingly that AddOns have had an extremely limited effect on Private servers so far and largely will be completely uncompatible with Classic.

So what if some guy makes a LFR AddOn? What raid do you think you're gonna clear with a random PuG raid that didn't do a significant check on every single member in the raid? Enjoy trying to get past the Imp packs in Molten Core lol.
27/10/2018 13:01Posted by Shogath
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You need a threat meter to play any serious group content. Some classes pretty much need at that point simple timer addons for their abilities. Plus a full raid frame for healers. Basic things that were available even back then.
You don't really 'need' any addon.
What you 'need' is players that enjoy learning and tackling challenging content together and maybe developers who stop purpousely creating holes in their work for addon writers to patch up.


No you selfish snowflake. Not everyone is interest in the same playstyle as you are, not everyone want to quest on 10 characters. Some may want to rank in pvp, some may have time for one toon and they may want to raid with it or boost guildies in their lower level elite quests. Some addons are necessary for some activities in the game, while some other are cheesy and if you outright reject every addon because your playstyle doesn't need any is highly disrespectful to other players and shows you lack of knowledge of the whole game. If you don't want others to play as they want to - play a single player game.

Threat generation is not visualized in the game, yet it's core mechanic that every party member needs to are and adjust - and even Blizzard at that time use community made threat and DPS meters when testing and designing vanilla raids. Threat meter, a raid frame or ability timer doesn't chees the game, but there are other addons that can do it. WoW is a game with addons, from the very start, so if you want to achieve something - focus on bad addons and take other players legit non cheesy needs into account.
27/10/2018 12:23Posted by Ashiharademo
No gear score addon should be allowed!
No quest helper!
No raid assist kind of addons where the addon is telling you everything, when the boss is doing this and that, where to stay, when to move, where to move, when to scratch your !@#.
No search for players/grouping/lfg addons!


That would not be my vanilla experience then.

In addition gear score addon was developed mid wotlk when gear with higher gear score has higher values of the same stats. That is not the case of vanilla, where epic gear can be crap and bis is blue item.

Search addons were available back in vanilla as well but they work more like auto-invite and spam chat addon sor only with people with the same addon.

Quest helper? Who cares?? Everyone knows almost every quest anyway.. Stop making stupid demands pls.
27/10/2018 00:39Posted by Juki
Only addons that were back then should be allowed

Blizzard should not try to recreate "back then" experience by trying to emulate external factors, like people programming addons, or old hardware, or G.Bush as a US president. Especially if this will require implementing direct changes to 1.12 game. This is a part of nochanges philosophy.

However, Blizzard have and always had control on what addons should or should not be allowed. For example, back in the day they banned some addons that made raiding too trivial or violated anti-bot policy.
27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
No you selfish snowflake.
Eat me FatBarrel.
27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
Not everyone is interest in the same playstyle as you are
I don't have a special playstyle.... that is the whole point. Im talking about wow without crutches, cheats and shortcuts or elitists tools for e-peen enlargement and discrimination of other players.

Unless ofcourse you consider NOT playing like a lazy lame duck to be a special playstyle.... which your type probably does. lol
27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
Threat generation is not visualized in the game
Never had a problem with assessing threat and the marging of error is what makes things exiting. Failing is learning and getting better. Using crutches and forcing others to do the same just to accomodate your need for speed is lame AF and has nothing to do with anything.
27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
If you don't want others to play as they want to - play a single player game.
If you feel the need for crutches and cheats you should go single player yourself. That way you don't have to slowly destroy an entire game while pretending its designed that way.
27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
and even Blizzard at that time use community made threat and DPS meters when testing and designing vanilla raids.
I can't even begin to explain how ff'ing sad that is. Using 3rd party crap to be able to get around in your own game.
27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
so if you want to achieve something
I already am dad ... im speaking out against badly implemented idea's. The evidence of which is staring everyone in the face.

Blizzard doesn't need my specifics because they are well aware of where they ff'ed up. There's a trail of stolen addon idea's and deliberate design flaws.
I don't have a special playstyle.... that is the whole point.

You wrote you are not interested in "end game" at all, and that you want to level multiple characters. You also dropped all raiders to "toxic" and "elitist" bag. That's one of many ways to play the game.

Im talking about wow without crutches, cheats and shortcuts

If you have any knowledge of cheats then you should immediately inform Blizzard about them, If not stop spreading FUD.

or elitists tools for e-peen enlargement and discrimination of other players.

Name exact vanilla/classic addons, their functionality and why they discriminate other players?

27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
Threat generation is not visualized in the game
Never had a problem with assessing threat and the marging of error is what makes things exiting.

So you didn't know about addons, weren't a "hardcore" raider if any raider at all yet you have the perfect knowledge what is needed for optimal raiding? Your addon needs shouldn't be forced to others in a game that officially supports them.

There is nothing exciting in someone pulling threat because tank happened to miss attack or two which you can't see directly. It can be seen as a flaw of the system but a threat meter quickly become a necessity. Doing explicitly crap DPS to never pull threat like you suggest is dumb/bad as possible. You can't play as best as you can because magic numbers no one can see can cause a random wipe. The game either dumbs down threat mechanic or gives a threat meter so that people can adjust and succeed by lowering DPS when needed.

Some people will want to min/max, want to be competitive, complete the hardest content possible. Don't try to order people around what and how they should do. Mind your own character and not somebody else, especially when your "end game" knowledge and skills are close to zero where as your most interest is to redesign or cripple that part of the game.


27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
If you don't want others to play as they want to - play a single player game.
If you feel the need for crutches and cheats you should go single player yourself. That way you don't have to slowly destroy an entire game while pretending its designed that way.

If you know of any cheats and alike happening inform Blizzard now, if not stop spreading FUD, stop lying.


27/10/2018 15:03Posted by Bigkeg
and even Blizzard at that time use community made threat and DPS meters when testing and designing vanilla raids.
I can't even begin to explain how ff'ing sad that is. Using 3rd party crap to be able to get around in your own game.

Many popular addons or their ideas were incorporate into the game to improve it. Right now we have like "open all" button in the mailbox which was very popular addon before that. Should a game be in a state where addons aren't needed to fix UX/UI shortcomings? Yes, but it's not that easy to achieve.
27/10/2018 20:18Posted by Bigkeg
Many popular addons or their ideas were incorporate into the game to improve it.
Yeah, brilliant design philosophy isn't it? Create an addon feature so people patch up your game for free.
27/10/2018 20:18Posted by Bigkeg
Right now we have like "open all" button in the mailbox which was very popular addon before that.
Yes i already mentioned that 'design strategy' If you can't come up with it by yourself you can always steal it.

And in that very process of adding the most popular addons into your game just ignore that they are all QoL addons that slowly turn your game into crap.
27/10/2018 20:18Posted by Bigkeg
Should a game be in a state where addons aren't needed to fix UX/UI shortcomings? Yes,
There you go.
27/10/2018 20:18Posted by Bigkeg
but it's not that easy to achieve.
Complete and utter BS.

If you develop a game and find out later you forgot to add stuff you find out about that on your game forum from your players, or maybe your developers stumble over their mistakes while they play the game themselves.. Then you can start filling the holes patch by patch. What's hard about that ??

And addons to customize your game is in itself a great idea... what is not so great is that you force your players to install those 3rd party addons because apparantly they can be used to trivialise your original design and thus become mandatory for a large group of people. That's not a feature but a large hole in your thinking process.

Yes, they can do whatever the hell they want. And yes, i can sure as hell express my opinion on that. Does that make me a 'special snowflake'? Whatever, if you think people with an opinion are special snowflakes. Do i give a sht? No ofcourse not.

Freeze the addon feature in time or, if they can't, remove it entirely. Balance where you purposely left holes for addon writers and launch Classic without the dumb addon mistake.

Second chances don't come around that often.
Shogath, please, you are embarrasing yourself. You admit to have never raided in a hardcore way in vanilla yet you speak of addons and hardcore raiding. Please, get this into your brain: starting with Zul'Gurub Blizzard started designing encounters with addons in mind!

You can't do Hakkar, AQ bosses and, of course, Naxxramas without a threat meter and a DBM-like addon because said bosses require those. You can't do crappy DPS to do little threat because there are enrage timers; you know what that means? It means that if the boss is not dead in a set time it's a TPK, a raid wipe!
28/10/2018 00:56Posted by Shogath
If you develop a game and find out later you forgot to add stuff you find out about that on your game forum from your players, or maybe your developers stumble over their mistakes while they play the game themselves.. Then you can start filling the holes patch by patch. What's hard about that ??

World of Warcraft was close to being canceled during it development due to how much company resources it used and how many problems they had to overcome. Such games take many years of development and millions of dollars to make. They could take an extra year to polish it even more, then another to make it top notch, but still third year for extra tuning... it never ends while return of investment must happen or the company goes broken. Financial success of vanilla gave them green light to polish it in patches and then solve bigger problems in next ~2 expansions. As Classic is Vanilla and vanilla doesn't have system fixes from BC and WoTLK we have to go on a compromise and admit we are playing a cool game, but half finished.

28/10/2018 00:56Posted by Shogath
can be used to trivialise your original design and thus become mandatory for a large group of people. That's not a feature but a large hole in your thinking process.

If you allow addon api to do so then yes, if not - no problem. Decursive and many automation addons aren't possible now as the API doesn't allow it. Blizzard broke addons they didn't like, even on retail, leaving only those deemed intended. There is a difference between automated decursing with no buttons needed and a ability timer addon or pretty nameplates or unified bag view. Idea for addons was to customize look and feel and not to customize or automate game behaviour. Vanilla api had such holes but they were removed and Classic will be at minimum on Legion level + plausible Classic limitations. Making cheesy addon will be extremely hard.

28/10/2018 00:56Posted by Shogath
Does that make me a 'special snowflake'?

If you generalize and don't put the effort to clearly explain what is the problem or start from describing a cryptic solution then you may sound like someone that just wants to nerf someone or buff himself, a.k.a "standard forum post". In this post you put more effort and it sounds vastly better than a rage post "ban every addon".


28/10/2018 00:56Posted by Shogath
Freeze the addon feature in time or, if they can't, remove it entirely. Balance where you purposely left holes for addon writers and launch Classic without the dumb addon mistake.

It won't be vanilla API, it will be Legion + whatever they limit so don't expect automations or addon-to-win and LFG features. They can disable addons but at the expense of self-proving a lot of missing functionality for a half finished game. Whichever of this two options happen - nobody here will cry they lost their automations as majority of people interested in addons needs their UX/UI functionality, not the cheese.
28/10/2018 01:26Posted by Varleen
You admit to have never raided in a hardcore way in vanilla yet you speak of addons and hardcore raiding.
I don't have to raid to recognise addons are screwing over this game.

And pre-programmed 'design flaws' to accomodate addon writers is still bad design.

Classic is the best place for them to start doing a better job.
28/10/2018 09:37Posted by Shogath
I don't have to raid to recognise addons are screwing over this game.


Again, you never knew about addons for over a year after release. How can you claim that they were screwing over the game, on top of that when the player numbers climbed with every passing week? By your calculations, the game should've been dead and buried even before TBC.

28/10/2018 09:37Posted by Shogath
And pre-programmed 'design flaws' to accomodate addon writers is still bad design.


The addon feature lets addon makers craft addons that players as well as themselves can use to further customize and enhance game play experiences.

28/10/2018 09:37Posted by Shogath
Classic is the best place for them to start doing a better job.


Classic certainly isn't a place for you

Whenever you argue for the removal of addons and/or the addon feature because you claim that they ruined the experience for people, including yourself back in the original game, yet knew nothing about their existence back then, you are contradicting yourself, because you cannot hate something you have no knowledge of. Your opinions on the subject are moot, at best.
Bigkeg:
World of Warcraft was close to being canceled during it development due to how much company resources it used and how many problems they had to overcome.
Yeah, they just had enough left to create an addon feature so others could 'help' them finish the game. Seriously ... lol

There's an ongoing outcry on General about an addon that seperates the 'bad' from the 'good' players. Its just one example of the levels of toxicity addons created over the years. People are now battling 3rd party scoreboards instead of ingame bosses.

It would take very little to cleanse Classic of this poison. Remove the feature and plug purposely designed addon holes.

Leave the addon feature for organising bags and stuff.
28/10/2018 09:57Posted by Shogath
It would take very little to cleanse Classic of this poison. Remove the feature and plug purposely designed addon holes.


Honestly, at this point, the only hole that needs to be plugged, is your piehole..

I'm getting tired of seeing your toxic posts in every single addon thread on this forum.

You lie and post false information and such about addons, bashing, swearing at other posters just for disagreeing with you, on top of the name calling, claiming they're 'cheats' or worse, yet, you never even knew about the existence of addons until well over a year after release. You just can't stop contradicting yourself, can you?

Do you honestly believe Blizzard will listen to someone who want them to tailor THEIR game to suit YOUR play style? Someone who wants EVERYONE to play the game the exact same way YOU do? Just because you failed to look at the hundreds, if not thousands of topics on addons for the original game, not to mention the fact that we had a dedicated forum for addons and macros from day one of release? Hell, we even had addon topics going during the beta..

No. Blizzard may listen to a few crybabies on these forums now and then, but people like you? I'm pretty sure if anything, they're laughing at you from behind closed doors.

Again, the world does not revolve around you, certainly not this game. Never have, never will and you can't force them to make it revolve around you. Just give it up already.
27/10/2018 13:11Posted by Zienix
Good luck killing Kel'Thuzad without range indicator or ability timer AddOns.

I keep hearing same thing about raids in retail. "DBM/bigwigs is absolutely mandaotory for raids above LFR!" etc. It is complete BS. So far every heroic raid and usually first half of mythic is totally possible without this.

And vanilla mechanics are easier than that, so i see no reason why you can't raid without addons.

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