Make gear matter again

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30/10/2018 16:56Posted by Skyrha
But why should I get a bis belt 1 hour after hitting 120? It invalidates progression, yes it's nice feeling to get titanforged item, but it quickly goes away and you get sick of gearing much more quickly. You can talk all about how raiding is about progressing and feeling of killing the boss, but earning gear from those kills adds to the experience.


If you are that pissed about it and had firm beliefs diss/scrap it otherwise enjoy a bit of luck for a while its just gear sense of progress really hasnt been there for me since TBC and the real start of welfare epics .

This gearing isnt a new thing but you lot on the forum seem to want to blame BFA for all .

Epics havent really been epic since tier 2 imho .
30/10/2018 16:56Posted by Skyrha
But why should I get a bis belt 1 hour after hitting 120?


It isnt your BIS though is it as total wrong stats for your spec :P

Haste/Crit would have been miles better then Crit/Versa ,Vers being your worse stat ever.
Well not bis bis, but 390 and socket, way ahead of what I should have.
You underestimate stats greatly, versatility is not useless, just not as good as others, the difference is smaller than you may think, also strength is crucial.

Titanforging is only part of problem, biggest problem is catch up mechanics and how far ahead next tier goes. After next tier comes, you'll get Uldir heroic ilvl gear from world quests. Take a look at Wotlk for example, Dungeons go to 200 ilvl, naxx10 200 ilvl, naxx25 213 ilvl, then comes Ulduar and it goes to 213 for 10m, with hardmode giving higher ilvl, and 226 for 25m, hard mode once again giving higher. And then there's turning point in WoW, which killed that 12.5 mil number, Trial of crusader, they add a dungeon that gives Ulduar ilvl gear, which invalidates Ulduar and Naxxramas almost entirely, leaving players to do only Trial of Crusader for gear. Same is happening here, new tier will come, and Uldir will be brushed away, rather than being used as a slightly easier method of gearing. It's shame so many great raids get put into past, rather than being somewhat viable for longer.
I feel devalued when someone rolls a 20 in D&D because critical success invalidates all the time I've put correctly increasing the various skills of my characters.

If anything, TF is probably the most true RPG feature in a while.
30/10/2018 16:10Posted by Kamazh
No longer having just BIS items with no modification or proc improvements to them could much quicker lead to burnout or lack of interest. Why should I continue playing if theres no more gear to be had? If BIS items in all slots.

Titanforging helps keeping lower levels of content alive. As well reducing the shortages of healers and tanks.

Its only jealousy and elitism that socalled mythic raiders cries about no longer feeling special for their gear. You are special with your skill, that you can finish levels of content that none of the plebians could do, even if they have 1 or 2 mythic grade items.

Dont try to be a special snowflake, for you are not one.


I do not agree with this, for myself and like minded people not having a clear goal burns us out quicker, we want to be able to set a goal and achieve it and you will not finish getting your full BiS quickly as you have stated it will take awhile.

Wether it is getting full HC raid gear or mythic the gear should be static, although I do not think it effects the highest level of play more then the casual player(casual being a few hours a week in WoW) as they will never be able to finish gearing their character in a current tier.
Well not bis bis, but 390 and socket, way ahead of what I should have.

Titanforging is only part of problem, biggest problem is catch up mechanics and how far ahead next tier goes. After next tier comes, you'll get Uldir heroic ilvl gear from world quests. Take a look at Wotlk for example, Dungeons go to 200 ilvl, naxx10 200 ilvl, naxx25 213 ilvl, then comes Ulduar and it goes to 213 for 10m, with hardmode giving higher ilvl, and 226 for 25m, hard mode once again giving higher. And then there's turning point in WoW, which killed that 12.5 mil number, Trial of crusader, they add a dungeon that gives Ulduar ilvl gear, which invalidates Ulduar and Naxxramas almost entirely, leaving players to do only Trial of Crusader for gear. Same is happening here, new tier will come, and Uldir will be brushed away, rather than being used as a slightly easier method of gearing. It's shame so many great raids get put into past, rather than being somewhat viable for longer.


People would do Ulduar alongside ToC all the time and fairly consistently until ICC release, whatcha talkin about?

The 50 tries cap gave you plenty of time to get back to Ulduar within a week if you didn't progress.
Yes, Ulduar25 was still farmed, but just for hardmode, maybe tank trinket and tank shield for sheer stamina that ToC10 can't give.

Everything else you could get in TotC10 and heroic ToC dungeon.
30/10/2018 15:38Posted by Enthzul
30/10/2018 15:31Posted by Tahra
Simply put:

Mythic raiders, or high end game runners in general, are a minority.
If a game caters to a minority too much, it alienates the rest of the playerbase.
That will drive most other players away, which benefits no one.

It doesn't matter how right you think you are. If Blizzard listens to a minority it will impact the game in a negative way because it WILL drive the majority away. In effect, you'd be killing the game you love because you want to play it a certain way. You can't have your cake and eat it.

And now tell me, how good gear benefits casual ppl you talk about if they will never ever for example step to harder content than lets say LFR/normal ? Well, he will drop some juicy 380 items etc, and for what? If majority of playerbase are that casual like some ppl say, they dont need that good gear for things they wanna do/achieve in game, do they? They need only gear that is relevanmt to their lvl of game.


For more casual minded players it's not about 'good gear'. BUT... One of the core aspects of (mmo)RPGs is the advancement of your character. If this advancement stops, the game is basically 'done' and it's time to quit.

A very easy and simple way for your character to advance is gear and of course Blizzard know this. The fact that casual players don't want/can't do higher endgame content, doesn't mean they don't want to advance their character.
Let’s be honest even mythic + is crap. You keep repeating same dungeon to get upgrade on gear and key. This upgrade !@#$ is worthless . Instead of running normal mode to get gear 305, get acces to heroic to be able get 325 , tans then mythic to get 340, but not mythic plus . Lfr and normal mode of raids should be available at 340 . You can talk %^-* how much you want but I liked pandaria before option to upgrade gear. You killed tares, chests dungeons to progress in gear. Now they throw gear in your face , and you keep repeating over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over same !@#$ing dungeon to upgrade the key for it and maybe to get gear. Mythic plus wf/tf is crap .
30/10/2018 17:12Posted by Skyrha
Same is happening here, new tier will come, and Uldir will be brushed away,


I raided EN from start of legion to end of legion and all 4 modes per week lfr/n/h/m so the carrot is still there for everyone to gear .
TBC had the same btw with dungeons and currency and proffs and BOEs from raids and crafted and PVP gear since mid way through TBC its been one huge reacurring loot pinta.
30/10/2018 17:21Posted by Elmex
Let’s be honest even mythic + is crap.


Agreed actually. But there's people who enjoy it. And thankfully noone is forced to do them if they don't want.

30/10/2018 17:21Posted by Elmex
Mythic plus wf/tf is crap .


Hey now, let's not just throw all the buzzwords together in one big pile and call it crap. They are different things. One is cool, one is not (yes, yes imo).
30/10/2018 17:20Posted by Tahra
30/10/2018 15:38Posted by Enthzul
...
And now tell me, how good gear benefits casual ppl you talk about if they will never ever for example step to harder content than lets say LFR/normal ? Well, he will drop some juicy 380 items etc, and for what? If majority of playerbase are that casual like some ppl say, they dont need that good gear for things they wanna do/achieve in game, do they? They need only gear that is relevanmt to their lvl of game.


For more casual minded players it's not about 'good gear'. BUT... One of the core aspects of (mmo)RPGs is the advancement of your character. If this advancement stops, the game is basically 'done' and it's time to quit.

A very easy and simple way for your character to advance is gear and of course Blizzard know this. The fact that casual players don't want/can't do higher endgame content, doesn't mean they don't want to advance their character.


I used to be a casual like you, I didn't have a clue about anything, but friend got me into a Wotlk private servers where the cruel devs buffed raids up to 250% in damage/health/armor. I still depended on my parents so I couldn't buy retail, they thought it waste of money, so I played on that private servers.

My whole guild, we were all casuals, didn't even know about hit rating, expertise, just putting on whatever piece we found, couldn't even down more than 2-3 bosses in that overbuffed hell that was naxxramas, but there was no other way to gear, so we researched, learned our classes, spent 2 months wiping and progressing until we downed Kel'Thuzad. We learned how to heal, tank and dps in those 2 months better than in years I played before.
That Naxxramas25 was on par with Heroic/Mythic Uldir now, depending on boss, and no one gave up, every guild, even casual guilds, progressed and earned their gear, and same with Ulduar after, so no, people would not give up if titanforging went away, people would step up their game and learn more. Progression shouldn't be given to you, you should progress on your own, that's what rpg is, not being given loot through lottery.
30/10/2018 17:30Posted by Skyrha

I used to be a casual like you, I didn't have a clue about anything,


Don't presume too much.
I did progression raiding in vanilla. I did every raid. Only endboss I didn't down was in Naxx because by that time TBC was closing in and I was slowly growing tired of raiding.

In TBC I changed my ways even more. I didn't raid except when the guild really needed me. I grew to dislike raiding, for whatever reason.

I'm not casual in how much I play. I'm not casual in how much I'm willing to put into the game. I'm casual, by choice, in the type of content I prefer to do.

30/10/2018 17:30Posted by Skyrha

Progression shouldn't be given to you, you should progress on your own, that's what rpg is, not being given loot through lottery.


Nobody is asking to be given progression for nothing. But more casual players have just as much right to keep advancing their character at max level. Why should that be exclusive to raiding or mythic+? We all pay a sub and want to have fun. When the character development stops, the fun gets a LOT less. So much so that many will quit at that point (usually to come back at some later date when they can advance again).

Blizzard of course prefers people to remain subbed.
TF helps with that. It really does. Of course people are not going to remain subbed solely because of TF (BfA has pretty much proven that; the actual content needs to be fun/engaging/worthwhile), but it helps.
Raiding, mythic+ and pvp requires gear to progress, if you don't do any, why should you progress in gear? There's no reason to, you can do just fine with 350 gear.
30/10/2018 17:54Posted by Skyrha
Raiding, mythic+ and pvp requires gear to progress, if you don't do any, why should you progress in gear? There's no reason to, you can do just fine with 350 gear.


But who are you to tell anyone what gear is fine ? see this is the massive problem both sides bicker there just is no need for it focus on your own game .

Sure let your voice be heard towards BLIZZARD but dont tell your other players what they can and can not wear/deserve .
30/10/2018 17:54Posted by Skyrha
Raiding, mythic+ and pvp requires gear to progress, if you don't do any, why should you progress in gear? There's no reason to, you can do just fine with 350 gear.


I just explained that in an earlier post:

For more casual minded players it's not about 'good gear'. BUT... One of the core aspects of (mmo)RPGs is the advancement of your character. If this advancement stops, the game is basically 'done' and it's time to quit.
30/10/2018 18:00Posted by Sulaa
30/10/2018 17:54Posted by Skyrha
Raiding, mythic+ and pvp requires gear to progress, if you don't do any, why should you progress in gear? There's no reason to, you can do just fine with 350 gear.


But who are you to tell anyone what gear is fine ? see this is the massive problem both sides bicker there just is no need for it focus on your own game .

Sure let your voice be heard towards BLIZZARD but dont tell your other players what they can and can not wear/deserve .


"Dont tell your other players what they can and can not wear/deserve" so you're saying that a person that puts 0 effort into game, slacks off in any aspect, deserves same gear as people who put effort into the game? This is an rpg, not a mobile game where everyone is a winner, you get as much as you earn, that's how rpgs work.
30/10/2018 18:23Posted by Skyrha
30/10/2018 18:00Posted by Sulaa
...

But who are you to tell anyone what gear is fine ? see this is the massive problem both sides bicker there just is no need for it focus on your own game .

Sure let your voice be heard towards BLIZZARD but dont tell your other players what they can and can not wear/deserve .


"Dont tell your other players what they can and can not wear/deserve" so you're saying that a person that puts 0 effort into game, slacks off in any aspect, deserves same gear as people who put effort into the game? This is an rpg, not a mobile game where everyone is a winner, you get as much as you earn, that's how rpgs work.


Then its your fault for not removing him from your group if he isnt pulling his weight.

And if you participiate, then you have the right to an equal shot at loot. Which never should only be for the favored few buddies with the lootmaster. Which is why personal loot is good.

And if you dont see any progression, you will eventually bore and quit. You folks are just sawing over the branch you are sitting on in jealousy over that others have a miniscule chance at some decent gear, since what you are asking for will reduce the playerbase more.

Titanforging helps you climb a bit further, instead of sitting at the first plateau of 340 average. a single item of 395 is not going to matter much.
30/10/2018 16:56Posted by Skyrha
But why should I get a bis belt 1 hour after hitting 120? It invalidates progression, yes it's nice feeling to get titanforged item, but it quickly goes away and you get sick of gearing much more quickly. You can talk all about how raiding is about progressing and feeling of killing the boss, but earning gear from those kills adds to the experience.


and 1 item isn't killing your gear progress, maybe if it dropped a full set of 395 with sockets you would be right .
30/10/2018 16:10Posted by Kamazh
No longer having just BIS items with no modification or proc improvements to them could much quicker lead to burnout or lack of interest. Why should I continue playing if theres no more gear to be had? If BIS items in all slots.


I do not know where this disillusion of BiS gear in all slots was something achievable by everyone in an instant before comes from. First of you would have to clear the raid on the hardest difficulty - mythic, something for the average player takes months. Yes, the elitist few that clear it in two weeks or less than a month are very few - that means less than thousands of players btw, among millions... - and they still need a few weeks of farm to get BiS, afterwards they proceed to gear their alts and so on. Not cause they ever really unsubb anyways, they are also an extreme minority and what they say and express probably bear more weight than their actual sub cash.

With a steady raid schedule of 4 months for every new raid to drop and some content in between I do not ever see how most average raiders could ever come close to their BiS gear. Only times I've seen people get bored of the content in droves with the old system is with the raids lasting for a year. Like certain end of expansion raids... Which basically translate to, do you wanna keep your subscribers? Well make more content! Trying to cheat people by artificial extensions of content with unobtainable BiS gear clearly worked out so well...

Game needs progression. Meaningful progression, when the game had it people subscribed. Furthermore what clear end goals beyond just clearing the content once and than not bother does exists now? Achieving BiS is almost a statistical impossibility. Frankly you would have to be stupid to challenge those odds and grind week out and week in for an unachievable goal. It is like being forest gump and running just for the heck of it, like the definition of bashing your head in to the wall repeatedly expecting something to happen beyond a brain hemorrhage. BiS gives goals, and progression, which makes me wanna play the game cause i have got something to work towards and achieve that bears meaning, beyond just clearing the raid there is nothing now.

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