Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate massacre

Story
"I've heard these discussions on the internet about 'she's going off the rails', but is she? I've been writing Sylvanas personally since 2006, and this is pretty much - the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas' orders. What we're seeing now is an escalation of the plans Sylvanas has, clearly, and we're in the middle of that.

A quote from Afrasiabi in his new interview with Eurogamer
https://www.eurogamer.net/amp/2018-11-08-world-of-warcraft-and-the-masterplan-for-sylvanas

Not sure if there's a thread already, but...

Why?
Why reveal this in some stupid interview?
Why retcon it at all?
There's no retcon at all. Chronicles Volume 3 already hinted at the possibility of Sylvanas being aware of the Wrathgate before it even happened.
12/11/2018 20:20Posted by Qahnarin
Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas' orders.


There is another thread.

And there has been some clarification already that he could have been referring to the fact that she planned on using the Blight against Arthas in the Wrathgate, but that then Putress took it for himself, and used it for his coup.

Using the Blight in the Wrathgate was indeed her plan. She didn't plan to use it the way Putress did.
She of course knew about the Blight that was being created.
12/11/2018 20:26Posted by Zarao
12/11/2018 20:20Posted by Qahnarin
Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas' orders.


There is another thread.

And there has been some clarification already that he could have been referring to the fact that she planned on using the Blight against Arthas in the Wrathgate, but that then Putress took it for himself, and used it for his coup.

Using the Blight in the Wrathgate was indeed her plan. She didn't plan to use it the way Putress did.
She of course knew about the Blight that was being created.


Makes me wonder, how did she plan to use it against Arthas at the Wrathgate then? The fighting was to draw him out... Was she planning on just injecting him with a needle or Arrow, then? Because the way I see it, it was gonna be used on everyone down there, and Putress just jumped the gun on her, because when you throw a gasious Blight down into a pit where both living and death are fighting... You can bet your behind everything down there is going to die or redie.
12/11/2018 21:00Posted by Moridunum
12/11/2018 20:26Posted by Zarao
...

There is another thread.

And there has been some clarification already that he could have been referring to the fact that she planned on using the Blight against Arthas in the Wrathgate, but that then Putress took it for himself, and used it for his coup.

Using the Blight in the Wrathgate was indeed her plan. She didn't plan to use it the way Putress did.
She of course knew about the Blight that was being created.


Makes me wonder, how did she plan to use it against Arthas at the Wrathgate then? The fighting was to draw him out... Was she planning on just injecting him with a needle or Arrow, then? Because the way I see it, it was gonna be used on everyone down there, and Putress just jumped the gun on her, because when you throw a gasious Blight down into a pit where both living and death are fighting... You can bet your behind everything down there is going to die or redie.


I gues the plan was to shoot it at Arthas and not to carpet bomb the whole field. And considering that it made Arthas to fall on his knee, an actually focused attack may have been enough to kill him.
We have a thread on this already.

I'm presuming the guy being interviewed misspoke or the person doing the interview misunderstood the answer until we can get some official confirmation.
It is a thread that already exists, and sadly, Alex Afrasiabi does have form, when it comes to making lore mistakes, by his own admission, so I wouldn't take it too seriously... Probably another !@#$-up on his part, like the last time.
12/11/2018 21:00Posted by Moridunum
Makes me wonder, how did she plan to use it against Arthas at the Wrathgate then?


By Arthas I meant the faction Arthas commanded. The Scourge basically.

It’s really no brainer if looked with some perspective. As player, you are tasked to test it exclusively with the Scourge forces that roam around beneath Naxxramas.

Don’t know why people just assumed it was all her plan. It wouldn’t make sense at all.
She was almost killed by Varimathras and Putress.
Even in Before the Storm she references them as traitors.
But the conflict with Saurfang just wouldn't be personal enough, if Sylvanas wasn't behind Dranosh's death! Drama!
She did command production of plague, she did order Putress to move to Northren... she did not however order blighting of Horde and alliance... thats what he did on his own...

...it was probably to turn everybody against the Forsaken and push them in arms of the Legion as Varimathras wanted, as it was his plan all along.

Highly doubt she is that stupid to order attack on her own faction... that makes 0 sense... and also her not being there is clear indication Putress acted on his own account.
What we have now is the information that what has happened at the Wrathgate was ordered by Sylvanas.

All of your speculations that she didn't "mean" that are just that - speculations. So until it is further clarified - the official lore is that Sylvanas betrayed the Horde right then and there.
I don't care what was happen in the past. She is my most hated character, because she kills the majority of my favorite race & also destroys the horde for her advantages. I was surprised about this statement, but it still changes nothing.
13/11/2018 08:29Posted by Halasibel
What we have now is the information that what has happened at the Wrathgate was ordered by Sylvanas.


You have a sentence that states Sylvanas planned to use the Blight in the Wrathgate.
If we are to be picky, it doesn’t say she planned on killing Horde and Alliance troops.

And it requires some serious mental gymnastics to concile the theory about her wanting to attack the Horde, with the rest of the events that happened later, ranging from Putress trying to assassinate her, how she asked the Horde for help dealing with him, and the fact Varimathras wanted to shackle the Forsaken back with the Legion.
Or the way she tasks you to test the plague ONLY with Scourge or undead members during the questing experience.

And of course, further internal dialogues that have her wondering about ‘traitor Putress’, in novels like Before the Storm.

Really, it takes some serious logic leaps to rationalise how would the plan to demonise the Horde and the Alliance against her, have her expelled from her home and almost killed, would actually be her goal.

Ps: And on top of that, you are taking a transcripted dialogue, that references a guy that has repeatedly made some serious lore mistakes in the past.
13/11/2018 08:44Posted by Zarao
13/11/2018 08:29Posted by Halasibel
What we have now is the information that what has happened at the Wrathgate was ordered by Sylvanas.


You have a sentence that states Sylvanas planned to use the Blight in the Wrathgate.
If we are to be picky, it doesn’t say she planned on killing Horde and Alliance troops.

And it requires some serious mental gymnastics to concile the theory about her wanting to attack the Horde, with the rest of the events that happened later, ranging from Putress trying to assassinate her, how she asked the Horde for help dealing with him, and the fact Varimathras wanted to shackle the Forsaken back with the Legion.
Or the way she tasks you to test the plague ONLY with Scourge or undead members during the questing experience.

And of course, further internal dialogues that have her wondering about ‘traitor Putress’, in novels like Before the Storm.

Really, it takes some serious logic leaps to rationalise how would the plan to demonise the Horde and the Alliance against her, have her expelled from her home and almost killed, would actually be her goal.

Ps: And on top of that, you are taking a transcripted dialogue, that references a guy that has repeatedly made some serious lore mistakes in the past.


It is a developer's words versus our analysis.

Which is cannon? What Blizzards says or what we think?

Until Blizzard clarifies that further - this is the official lore, whether we like it or not. And keep in mind that continuity/consistency is not necessary according to Blizzard - "continuity exists to enhance a story not to tie the hands of creators".

I dislike "Draenor is free" case but this if official lore, whether I like it or not.
13/11/2018 09:00Posted by Halasibel
It is a developer's words versus our analysis.


It’s a developer saying “Sylvanas planned to use the Blight, and planned for the Wrathgate”.

Saying, “She planned to use the Blight against the Horde and the Alliance at the Wrathgate” is ALSO some analysis by players.

And regarding continuity, I doubt they already planned on retconning the whole thing given the latest novel still addressed what happened there as done by traitors.
12/11/2018 23:42Posted by Zhaarija
12/11/2018 21:00Posted by Moridunum
...

Makes me wonder, how did she plan to use it against Arthas at the Wrathgate then? The fighting was to draw him out... Was she planning on just injecting him with a needle or Arrow, then? Because the way I see it, it was gonna be used on everyone down there, and Putress just jumped the gun on her, because when you throw a gasious Blight down into a pit where both living and death are fighting... You can bet your behind everything down there is going to die or redie.


I gues the plan was to shoot it at Arthas and not to carpet bomb the whole field. And considering that it made Arthas to fall on his knee, an actually focused attack may have been enough to kill him.


Makes me wonder why she would bring in a whole load of catapults and blightcannisters then? She wanted the whole Horde and Alliance to dip their arrows into her cannisters or something and then shoot the empty barrels away?

Its clear by everything around the Wrathgate, she was planning to use it on Arthas and the Scourge, and she would've used it on the Alliance and Horde herself to. I doubt they would've had enough time to retreat after they lured the Lich-King out, and its not unlike Sylvanas to Blight them all anyways, because every fallen soldier would be one more soldier in the ranks of the Scourge. (Also see Siege of Lordaeron; where she had zero qualms about using the Blight on her own troops to)

Again, I firmly belief there was no difference between Putress and Sylvanas plan, except that he jumped the gun and declared war on both Living and Scourge alike, where as Sylvanas would've had thought of a different excuse, for example how they were loosing and they needed to do something.
13/11/2018 09:19Posted by Moridunum
Makes me wonder why she would bring in a whole load of catapults and blightcannisters then?


There was a whole Scourge army at the gates of Aggrathar.

And while Bolvar and Dranosh planned to meet them head on, and kill in hand to hand combat, what Sylvanas and her Forsaken commander could’ve planned, is to decimate said troops from the hilltops using Blight catapults. In Venomspite questing, you are tasked to test the range and destructive capabilities of said catapults against the zombies that roam the fields beneath Naxxramas.

Its really not that hard to imagine. As Dranosh planned their assault from their base in Agmars hammer, while the Forsaken planned theirs from Venomspite.
Those bases are miles apart and settled in opposite sides of the zone. And during the questing experience, once you land on either base, it’s clear neither side wants to know about the other.

Warsong Offensive and the Forsaken Onslaught land on opposite zones of Northrend. And meet each other at the Wrathgate.
What annoys me about this is not the fact that Sylvanas was behind it, I always assumed she was.

Why did they announce this at all? We didn't need this information.. It would have been perfectly fine if this was up for interpretation and speculation.

That's what I hate about wow lore... People constantly demand every single little detail about the lore and pressure the writers into revealing half baked lore-bits that they don't have thought through. This then leads to lots of retconning and out of character moments, because the writers write themselves into a corner...

If we did only know about the big stuff with all the little details being kept secret, the story would be much better.
13/11/2018 10:02Posted by Anouk
What annoys me about this is not the fact that Sylvanas was behind it, I always assumed she was.

Why did they announce this at all? We didn't need this information.. It would have been perfectly fine if this was up for interpretation and speculation.

That's what I hate about wow lore... People constantly demand every single little detail about the lore and pressure the writers into revealing half baked lore-bits that they don't have thought through. This then leads to lots of retconning and out of character moments, because the writers write themselves into a corner...

If we did only know about the big stuff with all the little details being kept secret, the story would be much better.


Yeah, because half-arsed stories are great.
13/11/2018 10:08Posted by Shainn
Yeah, because half-arsed stories are great.

*yawn* not even an argument.

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