Sucky DPS

Hunter
Hello,

I'm having problems with sucky DPS...my Ilvl is 361 yet I'm only cranking out max 8 or 9k dps, be it in a raid, a dungeon (heroic, mythic or mythic+) or in the training dummy at Boralus. I have Weak Auras installed and use Effies BM Hunter WA as my guideline (https://wago.io/41YukcfQG). No matter which way I squeeze the buttons the values remain the same. Guild leader claims I ought to be pulling about 12 - 15k at this lvl (he is barring me from participating in heroic progression because of this). I haven't got the faintest idea where the problem lies, although I suspect is gear.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Cheers Nib
Hello!

Firstly, kudos to you posting because a lot of people in your situation (Underperforming, not allowed into a raid) would blame everything but themselves and probably rage at blizzard for hunters being undertuned (Which as for BM is clearly not the case).

How much DPS *should* you be doing? Well this number varies on fight/buffs/a million different things. But all I can say is that in the vast majority of situations it should be a decent amount more than what you are doing (For reference, with all buffs you are simming 12.5k single target). This is a lot more than what you are currently doing, so apologies, but yes you are definitely under performing looking over your logs.

So what's the cause? Well firstly you seem like the type to actually care to learn, so 100% you should check https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-mastery-hunter-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities. Anything I say here is going to be written here as it's the 'compendium' of all the best hunter info the community has.

Having a very quick glance at logs I can point a few obvious things:

- Your opener looks a little random. Your opener should be the same thing every time, you seem to change it up a lot (But never really the 'correct' opener that you can find in the guide above). You cast crows very late, often cast barbed shot twice in a row, and cast very few kill commands.

- Your kill command usage is VERY low. You want to use this on cooldown as an absolute priority outside of keeping frenzy up on your pet. Remember, every time you cobra shot you reduce the CD by one second. You never want to 'waste' cooldown reduction unless focus capping. There are points in your logs where you go 10+ seconds without using kill command, and in reality this gap should only ever be 3-4 globals. A general rule is that if you are ever casting more than 2x cobras between kill commands, you are probably wasting a ton of cooldown reduction. Make sure you can see the kill command cooldown easily (Weakauras can help with this), and always be playing around it. You should always be ready to hit it the MOMENT it's ready. Often, using nothing 0.5-1 second before kill command is completely correct (Providing you won't focus cap), so that you can press it INSTANTLY is the optimal play, even if it feels odd not always pressing something when you can.

- On AoE, or even two target cleaving, you are spamming multi shot. Multi shot does awful damage, the only reason you are using it, is to activate beast cleave. Don't ever spam multi shot, just use it every ~4 seconds to keep up beast cleave.

- Your cd usage looks a little random. Aspect of the wild should be used every 2 mins (Although some fights you want to shift it around a little to take advantage of key DPS moments), and trying to get your final aspect of the wild when the boss is less than 35% HP (To benefit from killer instinct talent). Try and line up bestial wrath/aspect of the wild too as they are multiplicative.

I hope at least something helped here. Your best option is to have a very comprehensive look over the icy veins guide though.
REALLY good advice from Jerbae above.

To highlight 2 points...

1. Read and learn Icy Veins!

2. Keep a close eye on your frenzy stacks. A lot of your damage comes from your pet and the Frenzy buff makes him do more! Never double cast Barbed Shot. Try and leave renewing frenzy as late as possible (when it has 1-2 seconds remaining). Icy Veins has a weak aura for tracking the buff and it's the only wa I use. If the buff drops off, don't cast Barbed Shot as soon as it comes off CD (the buff will just drop off again). The aim is maintain 3 stacks of frenzy for as much of the fight as possible.

You basically have 2 priorities as bm.

Firstly - optimising Barbed Shot usage / Frenzy uptime.

Secondly - getting as many Kill Commands off as possible.

Getting a Barbed Shot off to avoid losing the Frenzy buff is the only thing you should be delaying Kill Command for.
Jesus Jerby.. just seen your warcraft logs..

Any tips for my DPS? :P
09/10/2018 21:27Posted by Compromíse
Jesus Jerby.. just seen your warcraft logs..

Any tips for my DPS? :P


If you actually want me to take a look i'm always more than happy to help. I usually just look through the forums when i'm bored so I can't always guarantee how motivated I am to look through somebodies logs at that very moment but i'll always give it at least a brief look xd
09/10/2018 22:37Posted by Jerby
09/10/2018 21:27Posted by Compromíse
Jesus Jerby.. just seen your warcraft logs..

Any tips for my DPS? :P


If you actually want me to take a look i'm always more than happy to help. I usually just look through the forums when i'm bored so I can't always guarantee how motivated I am to look through somebodies logs at that very moment but i'll always give it at least a brief look xd


Yeah if you wouldn't mind dude.. I feel like I've come to a bit of a stale mate atm..

I hit a good 95 on taloc this week but seem to be stuck in the 80s and can't figure out how to quite hit that last bit.

I don't feel like I slip up much on barbed shots much these days.. The only thing that I can think is sometimes I'm a second waiting for kill command because I've focus starved myself
10/10/2018 00:20Posted by Compromíse
I hit a good 95 on taloc this week but seem to be stuck in the 80s and can't figure out how to quite hit that last bit.


In general it looks like you are doing most of the basics just fine, so i'll just add a couple of minor things (Looking at your 95th taloc log):

- You missed a few kill commands. Make sure you can press it instantly when available. I think you had a couple of cobras that could have just been *pauses* and then KC instantly. You never really want to cobra if KC CD is under 2.5 seconds (1 sec cooldown reduction + global cooldown) as any less than this and you are wasting some of the cooldown reduction. However, using cobra here is fine if you would have focus capped during the pause.

- You could have aligned second cooldowns better. Your second aspect of the wild was slightly before lust, and you also didn't have bestial wrath up for the majority of it. This would have been solved by holding aspect of the wild another ~ 10 seconds or so, as it would have overlapped with bw/lust/pot. In addition to this, your very last cooldown of every fight has some wiggle room. If you KNOW that your next aspect of the wild is the last one you are gonna get, make sure you use it at the best moment possible. Even small things like overwhelming power are useful if you can line it up.

- Your opener is a bit off the optimal primal instincts opener. Checkout the icy veins guide. Your aspect of the wild is quite late (And misses your first KC/CS) etc. Rather than me list it all out, check out the specific opener for using a primal instincts trait there.

- If you are pugging/not in a stable guild it's much more difficult, but try to pre-plan the fight. You want to know a rough kill time, to plan out exactly when you use your 2 min CDs. For example, on mother heroic in the same log as the taloc one, your second aspect of the wild doesn't line up with lust at all. Would have been better to either use your second aspect earlier (Which meant you would have got a third one), or hold the second till lust. By using it where you did, you lost both these potential benefits. Leading on from this, you always want your final aspect of the wild to be in the <35% HP range because of killer instincts.

- It looks like you are using the pet basic attack macro right? Since most of your basic attacks seem to be closer to 3 seconds. However there are a couple of bigger gaps, like on taloc you had a basic attack at 48.8 seconds, and then the next at 54.5. Not sure what happened here. If you are using the macro that's great, but make sure it's ALSO toggled on auto cast. Whenever you are doing nothing just spam the macro to make it basic attack (I use my kill command key as my pet basic attack macro key, since you can spam it for the most part anyway unless using other abilities which it should also be macro-ed into anyway).

- A good site to look at is wowanalyzer.com Just plug a log into it and see if it comes up with many issues. It's a bit pedantic and you have to understand that it's extremely nit picky and often there are reasons in the fight for the 'issues' it spits out (Ie it might tell you that you have terrible uptime on mother, because it thinks its patchwerk when in reality you was in the other room waiting).

Maybe you already know all of this, but maybe there is something useful in this post for somebody.
Thought I posted back to this but it mustn't have posted.

Cheers dude.. Some interesting things to look at. Im goin to try and make a weak aura to keep my eye on kill command. Sometimes I think I try and get too many sneaky cobra shots in and ruin it
Tell your guild leader hes retarded. No way you can pull that dps in that ilvl.
Your gm is probs going from sims fof example raidbots has you at just over 13k.

Howevee as people have said sims don't take into account things like waiting in second room on mother, or other mechanics.
09/10/2018 12:12Posted by Jerbae
Hello!

Firstly, kudos to you posting because a lot of people in your situation (Underperforming, not allowed into a raid) would blame everything but themselves and probably rage at blizzard for hunters being undertuned (Which as for BM is clearly not the case).

How much DPS *should* you be doing? Well this number varies on fight/buffs/a million different things. But all I can say is that in the vast majority of situations it should be a decent amount more than what you are doing (For reference, with all buffs you are simming 12.5k single target). This is a lot more than what you are currently doing, so apologies, but yes you are definitely under performing looking over your logs.

So what's the cause? Well firstly you seem like the type to actually care to learn, so 100% you should check https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/beast-mastery-hunter-pve-dps-rotation-cooldowns-abilities. Anything I say here is going to be written here as it's the 'compendium' of all the best hunter info the community has.

Having a very quick glance at logs I can point a few obvious things:

- Your opener looks a little random. Your opener should be the same thing every time, you seem to change it up a lot (But never really the 'correct' opener that you can find in the guide above). You cast crows very late, often cast barbed shot twice in a row, and cast very few kill commands.

- Your kill command usage is VERY low. You want to use this on cooldown as an absolute priority outside of keeping frenzy up on your pet. Remember, every time you cobra shot you reduce the CD by one second. You never want to 'waste' cooldown reduction unless focus capping. There are points in your logs where you go 10+ seconds without using kill command, and in reality this gap should only ever be 3-4 globals. A general rule is that if you are ever casting more than 2x cobras between kill commands, you are probably wasting a ton of cooldown reduction. Make sure you can see the kill command cooldown easily (Weakauras can help with this), and always be playing around it. You should always be ready to hit it the MOMENT it's ready. Often, using nothing 0.5-1 second before kill command is completely correct (Providing you won't focus cap), so that you can press it INSTANTLY is the optimal play, even if it feels odd not always pressing something when you can.

- On AoE, or even two target cleaving, you are spamming multi shot. Multi shot does awful damage, the only reason you are using it, is to activate beast cleave. Don't ever spam multi shot, just use it every ~4 seconds to keep up beast cleave.

- Your cd usage looks a little random. Aspect of the wild should be used every 2 mins (Although some fights you want to shift it around a little to take advantage of key DPS moments), and trying to get your final aspect of the wild when the boss is less than 35% HP (To benefit from killer instinct talent). Try and line up bestial wrath/aspect of the wild too as they are multiplicative.

I hope at least something helped here. Your best option is to have a very comprehensive look over the icy veins guide though.


What a brilliant answer, if only hardly anyone actually cared this much to help others who do actually care and are trying....Nice one
05/11/2018 13:42Posted by Vladnar
What a brilliant answer, if only hardly anyone actually cared this much to help others who do actually care and are trying....Nice one


Thanks.

People far too often on these forums perform poorly and then blame everything but themselves (The game, their spec, etc). So when people actually ask for help themselves it's a good thing and hopefully people actually receiving some useful feedback would encourage more people to be in a mindset that their DPS is a result of their actions, rather than blizzards tuning.
Alot have happend to BMs though since 12 Oct :(
06/11/2018 06:18Posted by Clavia
Alot have happend to BMs though since 12 Oct :(


Nothing has changed in terms of PvE, which is what the post is about.
09/10/2018 16:56Posted by Rehoboam
REALLY good advice from Jerbae above.

To highlight 2 points...

1. Read and learn Icy Veins!


Thats the trouble these days people relying on online tutorials and guides and not figuring out for themselves, your playing a game exactly how someone wants you to play. Majority of people I inspected who play MM even have the same talents setup just because a guide said its good.

I remember during the days of Pandaria, (And prior) playing as survival was a rare thing and again majority of the guides said haste and crit for stats priority. But I chose to stack mastery instead for improving aspect of the viper - increasing my magical damage, I managed to reforge some gear and rolled with 46% mastery, and I enjoyed it as it was a different approach. Though I lacked crit and haste it made up for in dot damage from my serpent sting, black arrow and explosive shot ticks.
The game has been so dumbed down that there really only is one way to go with any given spec. Simming makes it easier to figure out what that way is. Any other way is just a dps loss. Player choice is just an illusion.
06/11/2018 12:00Posted by Gankrel
Thats the trouble these days people relying on online tutorials and guides and not figuring out for themselves


Because figuring it out for themselves 99% of the time ends up in you playing suboptimally. If you don't care about that, great, but the majority of the player base do (If they didn't, people wouldnt run around in optimal talents almost 100% of the time like they do now).

06/11/2018 12:00Posted by Gankrel
But I chose to stack mastery instead for improving aspect of the viper - increasing my magical damage, I managed to reforge some gear and rolled with 46% mastery, and I enjoyed it as it was a different approach. Though I lacked crit and haste it made up for in dot damage from my serpent sting, black arrow and explosive shot ticks.


No, it didn't make up for it. You playing something different is fine, but you lost DPS from doing so. Mastery was just a flat damage increase, so why is reforging mastery a different 'approach' to you? It changed nothing about your gameplay, just purely made you do less damage. Not many people want this.

06/11/2018 12:00Posted by Gankrel
Thats the trouble these days people relying on online tutorials and guides


Why is people wanting to play optimally a 'trouble'?

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