Bad Night elves are bad for the game

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29/10/2018 06:49Posted by Tánariá
The Shen'dralar haven't been shown to be these great master Arcanists because everything they tried, when serving Darnassus, was exploited by the Blood Elves.

The only Highborne who show any forms of development are those that are serving the neutral Kirin Tor.

The problem you've got is that the Alliance has Magi in both the Humans, who were taught by Highborne, and the Draenei who are still extremely skilled Magi, who are simply better than the Highborne.

Whilst the Draenei and Humans have been developing, the Shen'dralar remained as they were and that makes sense.
The Highborne of Quel'Thalas had to improve and develop because their next door neighbours we're not friendly. The Shen'dralar remained placid and at the time they were attacked and ousted by the Horde, it was all too late.


It's the high elves of Quel'thalas, they ceased to be highborne when they founded Quel'thalas and the original highborne group died off. Just a slight niggly bit.

And I am not sure the draenei were more skilled magi than the night elves or even blood elves for that matter. While their society was advanced both in technology and magic, we don't know if their arcana was more advanced. Sure Sargeras would have taught the Eredar more stuff too - but the night elves went all arcane out in the pre-sundering era, and they were match for the best of the demons, who had thousands of years on them plus power and knowledge gleaned from the titans.

Mannoroth is said to be wary of Azshara's power and feeling only Archimonde could handle, and Archimonde was the arcane expert of the 3 Draenei leaders. When the eredar fight the night elves, they are overwhelmed by demonic numbers but they sure take out Eredar casters too, Moonguard, highborne, whoever was fighting alongside the night elves were taking it to the legion big time. We see a recap of some of the fighting in Black Rook hold in Legion with the Illidan order hall epic quest - and these were night elves fighting without the power of the Well of eternity to back them because the Queen had cut off access to everyone outside the palace in Zin'Azshari.

Just saying, the arcane is a major forte of the night elves, especially in that era it was at its height, and although current shen'dralar and nightborne , and those in the moonguard stronghold in Suramar would have continued studying it further and made improvements, they would be minor ones compared to what an entire global empire would have been able to produce.

While you may be right, I am not going to believe that until it is explicitly shown or stated. I look at the draenei civilizaiton and it was wondrous, but then so was teh night elven one, and even if it was much smaller, so was the high elven one too. The night elf one is the only one that focused exclusively on the arcane. The high elf one had multi-magical focus, and the draenei one too, also included technology. - this is just my view on the issue.

29/10/2018 06:49Posted by Tánariá
The Shen'dralar haven't been shown to be these great master Arcanists because everything they tried, when serving Darnassus, was exploited by the Blood Elves.
As I've mentioned to you before, this isn't sufficient proof they aren't great aracnists for a long list of reasons i went in to detail here:
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17624542663?page=6#post-110

The Darnassians that were exploited were night elven novices a few weeks into training, a few weeks - some of them quite possibly great sorcerors before the sundering that laid down the arcane for 10k years and picked up with the lifted ban, others brand new recruits, some former druids too (i mean some of them cast nature's wrath and frostbolts) - they are only a few weeks into training, even a warcraft dev confirms this.

Yet you think these were full shen'dralar highborne - the lore says were Queen Azshara's most revered Arcanists, and who continued studying magic unbroken, with no losses up to the very present - their city only falling to ruins 200 years ago - so basically they were Suramar level up till 200 years ago. We don't see any of these guys in action combat wise, and it doesn't make sense for me to think they are terrible because of the quests in Azshara zone.

29/10/2018 06:49Posted by Tánariá
he only Highborne who show any forms of development are those that are serving the neutral Kirin Tor.
This is part of my gripe, blizzard hasn't shown the darnassian highborne do much. But just because they haven't, we shouldn't assume they are rubbish.

The lore already sets the tone and bar for them in its description, this is what I would assume to be their baseline capability until stated otherwise.

If the lore says you are a group of the greatest arcanists in the greatest magically advanced society, and while others of your kind lost everything they had and put aside using their arcane magic, you did not - it doesn't make sense to assume they are rubbish until shown they aren't. It makes sense to assume they are highly advanced until stated that they aren't.

29/10/2018 06:49Posted by Tánariá
The Highborne of Quel'Thalas had to improve and develop because their next door neighbours we're not friendly. The Shen'dralar remained placid and at the time they were attacked and ousted by the Horde, it was all too late.

yes, this is correct. The high elves of Quel'thalas (not highborne) did some amazing things over time, and grew to adopt and incorporate new forms of magic that strengthened them. They as of yet still did not achieve the heights in the arcane of their cousins - one can attribute that to both the loss of arcana from the sundering (something the night elven highborne/nightborne groups don't experience) and a 3,000 year break in studies another handicap, non of the night elven arcane groups (i.e. shen'dralar, nightborne, moonguard) seem to have.

While the Shen'dralar aren't recorded to have engaged in any combat, they are recorded to ahve been studying feverishly and constantly , as well as spying on the world collecting lore - almost like the only thing that amuses them in this broken world.

However saying that there isa lot about them that remains a mystery. For all we know they could have had an army - like the moon/dusk guard of the Suramar night elven bunch - one of the highborne ghosts we fight is a huntress afterall.
28/10/2018 19:13Posted by Tánariá
Age doesn't determine skill, when it comes to the Arcane and we have seen, time and time again, that the Blood Elves are the better arcane magic wielders.

You are the one that directly said the blood elves were better because they were had been using the arcane longer:

But when it is convenient to whatever point you are fabricating, you switch from headcanon to the pointing out a fair observation that age doesn't determine skill necessarily in direct contradiction to your "reasoning of why shen'dralar are worse than blood elves.

Blood elves are not better arcane wielders than nightborne or highborne that have been at it for over 10,000 and likely up to 14,000 years. Unless blizzard emphatically shows this or states this. Sure you can have exceptionally good blood elf castesr, same with human and draenei. But so far the greatest arcane wielders are Illidan Stormrage, Queen Azshara, then Aegwyn and her son Medivh, Khadgar come in line too. Other notable mentions are Grand MAgister Elisande - these are all NIght elves or humans.

And I'm not saying Blood elves aren't great at using the arcane, far from it.. YOU are the one blabbing that blood elves are better than night elves at the arcane, this is not what my topic is about, there have been some great blood elf mages - Prince Kael'thas for starters. And for such a mage talented race, you could write a topic on how it is odd that only night leves and humans have the greatest arcane users, it would be nice to have a blood elf one - i'd support that.

But a lot of the stuff about which race is better or more powerful is not determinable, we just know taht the night elven users are quite exceptional, and Suramar is the best we've seen of them so far, the rest we've only read about or being told, and we must take it at face value until otherwise.

Okay?
Here is a pro-tip for OP:

Hey ravenmoon why won't you create a blog and post on it? Because you're not interested in discussion but write essays each time someone disagrees with you.

Kudos to anyone who would read those textwalls.
24/10/2018 14:39Posted by Wenail
24/10/2018 11:53Posted by Yolandass
...

And yes thats how i remember nelfs they never seemed to me as magic users while Blood elfs have.


Priestess of the Moon shooting searing arrows and plowing the battlefield with starfall disagrees with You.

Sry .No offense ,but if You think so, You clearly missed something...

http://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/units/

All of their heroes have mana bars and use spells that costs mana.
They have units who use mana and spells.
They have magical wells that replenish both hp and mana.

How can this considered as no magic use???


Just because they added all the weird resdources in WoW they won’t change WC3 with it.

Mana is just the ressource fir all of them. Even Tauren Chieftain had Mama. Is he a mage? Of course not.

WC3 NEelves didn’t use arcane or fel magic. Except for Demonhunters, but they are more considered outcasts. Moon priestess weren’t mages. Druids weren’t mages, and the keeper of the groves weren’t mages.
29/10/2018 15:19Posted by Kilean
Just because they added all the weird resdources in WoW they won’t change WC3 with it.

Mana is just the ressource fir all of them. Even Tauren Chieftain had Mama. Is he a mage? Of course not.

WC3 NEelves didn’t use arcane or fel magic. Except for Demonhunters, but they are more considered outcasts. Moon priestess weren’t mages. Druids weren’t mages, and the keeper of the groves weren’t mages.


Wtf has tauren chieftans using mana bars got to do with any of this?

What are you trying to say?
24/10/2018 14:41Posted by Yolandass
Fine smartass but still Nelfs were famous more for theyr Druidic culture and High elfs that are now Blood elfs are famous for theyr magic.For example whenever i want to play a night elf i never think of mage nor a warlock i think more of Druids and warriors and Priests,and when i think of belfs i think of powerful mages and warlocks that can do Destruction.

Night elves would be famous for whatever the most viewed/experienced media showed of them. We must be careful not to assume this was all to them if the lore mentioned other bits. If people didn't read their quest text or background info and lore books they wouldn't get the full picture.

if you played wc3 you'd think night elves were mostly female warrior priests. if you played WoW during classic to WotLK, you'd think night elves were mostly druids or forest elves. If you played wow from Legion, you'd think night elves were largely mages, with wardens and demon hunters in toe. If you just followed media releases (books, official annoucments, comics etc) you'd probably see Night elves as a quite diverse group with an arcane and nature duality to them.

And if you looked at all their information together, you'd know they were made from the arcane, highly magical in both arcane and nature, and had a unique female warrior order. It would be till legion before you saw what their great cities and temples looked like, or their famous Emerald dream. It wouldn't be till Cataclysm before you saw their well of eternity. But because these things weren't shown didn't mean they weren't there, they were part and parcel of their lore and fully integerated in their storyline.

In WC2, high elves were famous for being both priests and mages, but in TBC, famous for only mages, and from MoP onwards people seem to think of them more as light users. That doesn't mean the ranger and the mage isn't a core part.

Learn not to take into account the WHOLE lore, not only what is been focused on atm.
29/10/2018 16:10Posted by Evynstar
29/10/2018 15:19Posted by Kilean
Just because they added all the weird resdources in WoW they won’t change WC3 with it.

Mana is just the ressource fir all of them. Even Tauren Chieftain had Mama. Is he a mage? Of course not.

WC3 NEelves didn’t use arcane or fel magic. Except for Demonhunters, but they are more considered outcasts. Moon priestess weren’t mages. Druids weren’t mages, and the keeper of the groves weren’t mages.


Wtf has tauren chieftans using mana bars got to do with any of this?

What are you trying to say?


Having a mana bar doesn't determine someone as being part-mage.

I'm on my phone at present so can't quote you directly, but regarding Highborne being better Magi than Blood Elves...that is the biggest pile of crap I've read.

Nothing in current lore suggests this. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Age doesn't determine skill...the shen'dralar are proof of that.
It doesn't matter if the night elf Magi in Azshara were novices either...they were taught by ancient tutors who are behind with the times.

Also, stop out-casting the blood elves from the Highborne...they are still of highborne blood and are the evolution on highborne mage-craft. They are the better Magi and no amounts of age or so-called Highborne expertise will change that. Also, Nightborne arcane constructs are easily exploited as per the Sunreaver Magi involved with the Suramar campaign.

Blood Elves have developed and are controlled now that they do rival the Naga in their expertise.

Nobody is saying that Queen Azshara isn't the most powerful Azerothian mage to have walked, but I'd still wager that those of the Highborne's Elite Circle are far more skilled than those of the Moon Guard. Years of not using it argument is also headcanon because the Highborne were able to:

1) Time lock their land through arcane magical means into an everlasting spring.

2) Teach the Humans

3) Create the Sunwell and empower it.

4) Create magical shields all around the land to stop prying eyes. The fact that they managed to hide their magics from the Eredar and Sargeras speaks volumes.

5) Magically create and construct Silvermoon.

6) High potency in Arcane Enchanting.

Plus more.
29/10/2018 16:45Posted by Tánariá
Having a mana bar doesn't determine someone as being part-mage.

I'm on my phone at present so can't quote you directly, but regarding Highborne being better Magi than Blood Elves...that is the biggest pile of crap I've read.

Nothing in current lore suggests this. In fact, it suggests the opposite. Age doesn't determine skill...the shen'dralar are proof of that.
It doesn't matter if the night elf Magi in Azshara were novices either...they were taught by ancient tutors who are behind with the times.

Also, stop out-casting the blood elves from the Highborne...they are still of highborne blood and are the evolution on highborne mage-craft. They are the better Magi and no amounts of age or so-called Highborne expertise will change that. Also, Nightborne arcane constructs are easily exploited as per the Sunreaver Magi involved with the Suramar campaign.

Blood Elves have developed and are controlled now that they do rival the Naga in their expertise.

Nobody is saying that Queen Azshara isn't the most powerful Azerothian mage to have walked, but I'd still wager that those of the Highborne's Elite Circle are far more skilled than those of the Moon Guard. Years of not using it argument is also headcanon because the Highborne were able to:

1) Time lock their land through arcane magical means into an everlasting spring.

2) Teach the Humans

3) Create the Sunwell and empower it.

4) Create magical shields all around the land to stop prying eyes. The fact that they managed to hide their magics from the Eredar and Sargeras speaks volumes.

5) Magically create and construct Silvermoon.

6) High potency in Arcane Enchanting.

Plus more.


I want to know what he meant by that statement. Before I craft a response. Unless you are he on another account..?
29/10/2018 16:54Posted by Evynstar

I want to know what he meant by that statement. Before I craft a response. Unless you are he on another account..?


Protip: You can check the comment he quoted to see what that statement was about.

This is the comment he has quoted:

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17624512891?page=2#post-26
29/10/2018 16:10Posted by Evynstar
29/10/2018 15:19Posted by Kilean
Just because they added all the weird resdources in WoW they won’t change WC3 with it.

Mana is just the ressource fir all of them. Even Tauren Chieftain had Mama. Is he a mage? Of course not.

WC3 NEelves didn’t use arcane or fel magic. Except for Demonhunters, but they are more considered outcasts. Moon priestess weren’t mages. Druids weren’t mages, and the keeper of the groves weren’t mages.


Wtf has tauren chieftans using mana bars got to do with any of this?

What are you trying to say?


Someone befire nade tbe point that tyrande was a mage because in WC3 she had mana as ressource. But since almost all characters with fancy abilities had mana in WC3 this assumption is wrong. I brought the example of the tauren Chieftain because he is obviously no mage.


In WC2, high elves were famous for being both priests and mages


I assume you are talking about WC3. In WC2 the only elvish units were archers/rangers and the small ships.
fix nelves pls. also fire steve.

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