The horror of Undeath (Spoilers)

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I must say, the recently revealed Derek Proudmoore cutscene is truly chilling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp7q3_SKULE

Let's start from Sylvanas' ploy. To "condition" the mind of the reborn Derek so that he may kill his entire family in their sleep... That's just cruel. Even by Sylvanas' standards. You would think that, as a Forsaken, she would try to help Derek get over his terrible trauma... But No, she just treates him like a tool.

But I really want to focus on Derek Proudmoore. The voice actor did such an amazing job

I have the impression that Undeath has been taken way too lightly recently. Voss refused to believe that she was Undead and was absolutely terrified, but now she is cool with it. Sylvanas kept moaning about how terrible and painful Undeath is, how it was an agony that had enslaved her, yet now she is fine with "freeing the people of Stormwind City from the shackles of mortality".

UNDEATH IS NOT PLEASANT. And this cutscene shows it quite well. Imagine waking up, looking at yourself, and seeing a monster. A corpse. Derek's reaction is so relatable and "human". The voice actor did a brilliant joy conveying the idea that Undeath truly is one of the worst possible things that can happen to someone. Even the mere idea of watching your body, once full of life and energy, decayed to an hollowed husk, would most likely shatter the sanity of the vast majority of people. Overall, I much prefer Derek's reaction over Delaryn's and Sira's.

Derek, once a proud man, has been crushed and reduced to such a pitiful and miserable individual. That Sylvanas witch truly knows no limits to her villainy and cowardice.
I am here with popcorn for the "She is not evil, just pragmatic."
Aww, such a sweet lady, giving him another chance to reunite with his family <3
His voice indeed is chilling. And saddening.

Seriously, listen to his painful screams and listen to Sylvanas' moustache twirling evil speech and still say she's not evil -_-

"There can be only victory or death for us!" - No, she lies. There can be only victory or death for HER. Anduin and the Alliance wants HER not the Horde. She's just using the Horde as meathshields.

Eh and obviously raising Derek against his will and "conditioning" his mind in order to force him to slaughter his family in their sleep is not evil.

Can't wait to see all these mental acrobatics deployed in her defense.
RIP Headphone user...
The Zandalar music in the background was so cheerful :D
Oh look Baine talking about honor again... the blind talks about the difference in colors

07/11/2018 13:47Posted by Araphant
I am here with popcorn for the "She is not evil, just pragmatic."

Evil is subjectiv in nature. Evil to whoom? human? yes. Tauren? probably yes. Forsaken? no... depends who you ask

pragmatic on the other hand is not subjective. You are or are not pragmatic doesnt matter who looks at you. Like on or off of lightswitch. Whoever looks at it, doesnt matter what his view is. The switch is on or off, and not "depends of who you ask"

But again she uses tactics that, in nature are effective, if people in that world werent protected by herism plot armor. They will probably get a morality burst the moment Derek kills his mother... for whatever reason

07/11/2018 13:54Posted by Halasibel
"There can be only victory or death for us!" - No, she lies. There can be only victory or death for HER. Anduin and the Alliance wants HER not the Horde. She's just using the Horde as meathshields.


Why kill Rastakhan then? Why attack the zandalari killing their soldier if they only want her (during the attack she wasnt even on the island)

Can't wait to see all these mental acrobatics deployed in her defense.


didnt you just did one by proclaiming they only want her, but still they attack everyone else but her? doestn sound logical to me
07/11/2018 13:53Posted by Catlathion
Aww, such a sweet lady, giving him another chance to reunite with his family <3


The family that he will be forced to murder in their sleep. Such a sweet lady indeed...
07/11/2018 13:58Posted by Xiaopaw
Evil is subjectiv in nature. Evil to whoom? human? yes. Tauren? probably yes. Forsaken? no... depends who you ask

pragmatic on the other hand is not subjective. You are or are not pragmatic doesnt matter who looks at you. Like on or off of lightswitch. Whoever looks at it, doesnt matter what his view is. The switch is on or off, and not "depends of who you ask"


And I was not disappointed.
To make this clear, this isn't another "Sylvanas is evil" thread (is there anyone who still denies that after at Blizzcon the developers said that her plans are evil?).

This is just an appreciation about the fact that Blizzard returned to the "Undeath is the worst" route. Recently, Forsaken characters have faced Undeath with way too much calm. Just look at Delaryn, Sira and the "new" Voss.

The Horde writers are trying to tell us that Undeath isn't that bad, but that is simply not the case. If you have played Warcraft III and Wrath of the Lich King, it should be clear to you why. Undeath is an absolute nightmare, and understandably so! Derek's reaction shows very well that being risen as an Undead is far from being a pleasant experience.
Evil is subjectiv in nature. Evil to whoom? human? yes. Tauren? probably yes. Forsaken? no... depends who you ask

pragmatic on the other hand is not subjective. You are or are not pragmatic doesnt matter who looks at you. Like on or off of lightswitch. Whoever looks at it, doesnt matter what his view is. The switch is on or off, and not "depends of who you ask"

But again she uses tactics that, in nature are effective, if people in that world werent protected by herism plot armor. They will probably get a morality burst the moment Derek kills his mother... for whatever reason

Yeah, that all sounds really fancy, Hobbes, but do you truly think that pragmatic methods, because its universal or whatever, should be employed so easily? I mean, it's pretty pragmatic to just let ourselves be slaughtered by the Burning Legion so we have a strong army to stand against the Horde. Or we can defend ourselves from the Burning Legion by becoming minions of the Lich King. All of that pragmatic.

And you still rely on the flawed "many perspectives"-theory. You speak as if pragmatism is supposed to be more valuable than morality because it is universal, but that that's only an assumption.

EDIT

07/11/2018 14:02Posted by Arctur
The Horde writers are trying to tell us that Undeath isn't that bad, but that is simply not the case. If you have played Warcraft III and Wrath of the Lich King, it should be clear to you why. Undeath is an absolute nightmare, and understandably so! Derek's reaction shows very well that being risen as an Undead is far from being a pleasant experience.

All by courtesy of Before the Storm.
The Zandalar music doesn't fit at all, it's tranquil and relaxing makes you think of peaceful Zandalar coastlines and admiring clear skyies and waters.

It fits this scene like punch to nose.

I don't think this scene was chilling that yelling at the end was overdramatic but I agree that it's disturbing in a way. Stop lying Sylvanas there are plenty of ways to defeat enemy without raising everyone to undead.
I really wish that tactic packfires at her like it was with Godfrey.

She is so unlikable with those obvious villain speeches.
Is that faction pride supposed to be a joke? I had more pride fighting for Rokhan in Warfront than under her ... ever :/
Evil is subjectiv in nature. Evil to whoom? human? yes. Tauren? probably yes. Forsaken? no... depends who you ask

pragmatic on the other hand is not subjective. You are or are not pragmatic doesnt matter who looks at you. Like on or off of lightswitch. Whoever looks at it, doesnt matter what his view is. The switch is on or off, and not "depends of who you ask"


Didn't wait long.
07/11/2018 14:07Posted by Zakkaru
The Zandalar music doesn't fit at all, it's tranquil and relaxing makes you think of peaceful Zandalar coastlines and admiring clear skyies and waters.

It fits this scene like punch to nose.

I don't think this scene was chilling that yelling at the end was overdramatic but I agree that it's disturbing in a way. Stop lying Sylvanas there are plenty of ways to defeat enemy without raising everyone to undead.
I really wish that tactic packfires at her like it was with Godfrey.

She is so unlikable with those obvious villain speeches.
Is that faction pride supposed to be a joke? I had more pride fighting for Rokhan in Warfront than under her ... ever :/


Derek's initial reaction is chilling. Not the music or the scream at the end.

07/11/2018 14:07Posted by Zakkaru
it's disturbing in a way.


It is. After I finished watching it, I asked myself: What would I do if I were Derek in that moment? I, too, would scream at the top of my lungs and demand to know what is going on.
07/11/2018 14:00Posted by Araphant
Evil is subjectiv in nature. Evil to whoom? human? yes. Tauren? probably yes. Forsaken? no... depends who you ask

pragmatic on the other hand is not subjective. You are or are not pragmatic doesnt matter who looks at you. Like on or off of lightswitch. Whoever looks at it, doesnt matter what his view is. The switch is on or off, and not "depends of who you ask"


And I was not disappointed.


did I claim she is good or not evil? The concept of good and evil are subjectiv. Some people find clowns evil, I dont... who is right them or me?
Some people find America evil, some good... who is right?
Alliance finds horde evil, hordes gind alliance evil. Who is right?
I find children evil by nature, am I right? (secretly everyone knows I am right)
My dog find my vaccum evil. Who is right? of course him, because he is a good boi <- this is the only exception of the rule

You can claim her evil. Its your point of view, but dont except others to share YOUR view. Dont bash them or make fun of them for not sharing YOUR view. Everyone has his own subjective view.

07/11/2018 14:02Posted by Arctur
Recently, Forsaken characters have faced Undeath with way too much calm. Just look at Delaryn, Sira and the "new" Voss.


tbh they could have made it a bit more terrifying... its still not as chilling as I imagine the psychic trauma of being a rotting corpse all of a sudden. And what happened in between? Dont you yourself wonder"wait I was alive seconds ago, now I am a living corpse?" "dude you were dead for decades" "WHAT! That cant be! Where is heaven I was promised! Where was my Soul in the meantime! There was nothing!" <- thats a deep dilemma I really want them to have, a crisis. And not an inconvinience for just 2 days and then back to chores
07/11/2018 14:07Posted by Zakkaru
The Zandalar music doesn't fit at all, it's tranquil and relaxing makes you think of peaceful Zandalar coastlines and admiring clear skyies and waters.

It fits this scene like punch to nose.

They'll fix that probably. Cutscenes in their early phases are usually without music/take the ambience music.

EDIT

did I claim she is good or not evil? The concept of good and evil are subjectiv. Some people find clowns evil, I dont... who is right them or me?
Some people find America evil, some good... who is right?
Alliance finds horde evil, hordes gind alliance evil. Who is right?
I find children evil by nature, am I right? (secretly everyone knows I am right)
My dog find my vaccum evil. Who is right? of course him, because he is a good boi <- this is the only exception of the rule

You can claim her evil. Its your point of view, but dont except others to share YOUR view. Dont bash them or make fun of them for not sharing YOUR view. Everyone has his own subjective view.

If you want to be a moral relativist, that's fine, but you will still have to give arguments for that. Easily proposing "stuff like that is relative" is not going to work, considering that hundreds, no, thousands of works have been written about that and people are still debating it in the field of moral philosophy.
Blizzard keeps telling us that Sylvanas is morally grey so perhaps y'all need to check on Blizzard to see if they're secretly all undead under their human disguises...
07/11/2018 14:13Posted by Catlathion
Blizzard keeps telling us that Sylvanas is morally grey so perhaps y'all need to check on Blizzard to see if they're secretly all undead under their human disguises...


Not anymore, since they said at Blizzcon 2018 that she has evil plans and that she would consider Garrosh an amateur. The only grey thing in this storyline are Darnassus' ashes.
You can claim her evil. Its your point of view, but dont except others to share YOUR view. Dont bash them or make fun of them for not sharing YOUR view. Everyone has his own subjective view.


I am entitled to make fun of moral relativism, a concept, which, for the record, is only used when people need to justify someone's crap.
"You speak of justice, of cowardice? I will show you the justice of the grave, and the true meaning of fear."
Anyone remember that?

I mean damn. If I found myself to be raised as an undead... I'd probably turn insane.
If there's a race that I have any 'racial pride' for, it's the Forsaken. So let's have a go at this.

Let's start from Sylvanas' ploy. To "condition" the mind of the reborn Derek so that he may kill his entire family in their sleep... That's just cruel. Even by Sylvanas' standards.

Sylvanas is a maniac that sees the Forsaken people as a tool. This has been the case since Cataclysm. They're her people in the sense that she views them as belonging to her, with no one else having any right them. She's an evil witch.

But more than that, the fact that she has to condition the mind of Derek Proudmoore is further evidence that 'Forsaken mind control' isn't something automatic that happens as soon as an individual is reanimated, it's something that Sylvanas and her regime inflicts upon certain characters of importance. The Forsaken are naturally free-willed from the moment of reanimation, something to keep in mind.

I have the impression that Undeath has been taken way too lightly recently. Voss refused to believe that she was Undead and was absolutely terrified, but now she is cool with it. Sylvanas kept moaning about how terrible and painful Undeath is, how it was an agony that had enslaved her, yet now she is fine with "freeing the people of Stormwind City from the shackles of mortality".

I disagree. Lilian Voss insinuates that she is coerced into serving Sylvanas, no different from Garona Halforcen, even if she has gradually come to terms with her nature. She is not a mindless adherent of Sylvanas's regime.

As for undeath being taken way too lightly...
Consider the fact that Amalia Stone suffers horrible trauma that causes her to run away as soon as she can, not unlike Lilian Voss herself. She has to be wrangled, sedated and convinced into sharing her information with the Horde.
Then there's Thomas Zelling, who eagerly looks forward to undeath as a form of immortality only to regret it only moments later, when he realises that he's seen by the rest of the world as a monster and that he's even behaving like something of a monster due to the changes that undeath can inflict on the mind.
Delaryn and Sira show very little reaction, I'll admit, but this could be due to the fact that there's a lot of moving parts in that questline and Blizzard didn't want to spend too much of it devoted to the struggle with undeath that Delaryn and Sira might experience. In addition, there's the possibility that with all of the parallels between Delaryn and Sylvanas, she could be planning to turn on her at the optimal opportunity, with the intention of planting an arrow in her back.

Then consider how the Forsaken present react to the reanimation of Derek Proudmoore, how horrified they are by the actions of Sylvanas. Coupled with all of the information above, I'll use this as an opportunity to make one thing clear.

Sylvanas is not the Forsaken and the Forsaken are not Sylvanas.

Sylvanas is a horrid banshee that currently leads the Forsaken, wields them like a tool and does everything in her power to ensure that they remain a broken people with no one to turn to except for her. She is evil.

However, the Forsaken are more than Sylvanas. For the most part, they are free-willed undead struggling to cope with the blessing of a second life and the curse of existing as monsters hated by the living, no longer who they once were, their minds altered by their transformation. They look out for each other and stand by each other, as no one else can understand this new existence that they have to endure. Their unlife should be spent searching for a balance between what they once were and what they now are, with the hope of eventually coming to terms with their condition and finding peace. Instead, they're not much more than weapons of the Banshee Queen.

Sylvanas Windrunner is a corrupting influence on the Forsaken and the best path for them is one without her or any other dogmatic, controlling leader with an agenda, such as Calia Menethil. We'll see if this ever happens.
07/11/2018 14:18Posted by Aradina
I will show you the justice of the grave

Very fitting for Sylvanas right now.

She apparantly has no moral values whatsoever, apart from a very small notion of it to determine the actions of the Alliance after doing something morally repulsive. In her world, there is no good nor bad, there is only the coldness of death, the constant pain and hatred. Which makes her even more dangerous, as should be clear by now.

Why she would bestow the "gift" upon others is, like others already said, beyond me.

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