Bring Back the Old talents tree

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10/11/2018 08:25Posted by Wolfblood
10/11/2018 00:37Posted by Dommina
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Not every single talent has to be epic, fun or cool. For someone making a haste build it is useful. It may not be the "optimum" but for those that like to put some creativitiy into their characters rather than be "arms warrior M+ clone #872" it is good to have choices.


So you’d rather have +2% haste over Bladestorm?
What a muppett


Of course not don't be stupid. Bladestorm used to be an ability not a talent so in a system that had talents that gave +2% haste you wouldn't have to choose between that and bladestorm. What you would have are talents that affected bladestorm, in the Prot tree you might have talents that increased the aggro, in arms and fury maybe ones that increased the damage or area of effect.
Talent trees are and always were useless~ People Google what to pick to be most competitive and everyone ends with the same build. Whats the point?

They should remove talents overall~ Most are so useless that there is no choice anyway.
Thats why I switched from DAoC to WoW in the first place. BEcause it was marketed as a Casual MMORPG where you could actually have fun without being forced into a group. I like playing with others, as long as I am not forced to group all the time. And WoW gave me exactly that.
Right, but WoW now forces you into groups. Most of the important story developments and world development happens in groups. It's not groups you form - instead it's just toxic !@#$ groups that nobody wants to be in, and somehow you've managed to convince yourself that this is a good thing.

Look, we're still not going to agree on a lot of fundamental issues, but if you want to talk this out, and believe me I do, we need another a thread.

Shortly I'll be making one. Hopefully the OP can provide enough context to create a meaningful discussion, but I guess we'll see what happens, won't we? :p

EDIT: Here it is: https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17624483659#1

10/11/2018 08:49Posted by Thysilis
To have a +2% haste talent you have to make all spells slower casting first, to have a +5% damage talent you have to reduce baseline damage by 5% first.
That's exactly right. Well spotted. In addition, in order to give you new that you only get as a Mage, you have to take those spells away from Druids.

Now, at this point it should be fairly obvious that you've just made a huge logical fallacy - a logical fallacy that the community at large commits almost on rails every time Blizzard does virtually anything, but I feel that this is important to address in more detail.

10/11/2018 08:49Posted by Thysilis
This is a total illusion and would just make leveling up even more frustrating when the base power of all classes gets heavily lowered just so you can take 100 talents to get that power back over 120 levels.
You can make this argument about anything, but fundamentally this is the point of levelling. You start as a nameless adventurer with nothing to your name, and your investment in your character will grow that character into a hero by constantly improving it.

In order for you to get a spell or a talent or whatever at level 34, it implies that you don't have that thing before level 34. It implies that levels 1-33 is more "painful".

Of course, in practice, it turns out it works really well. As long as your character doesn't start too pathetically weak and can actually kill things that a normal person would struggle with, such as a wolf or a giant spider or whatever, your character doesn't feel weak and it doesn't feel painful, and the game starts out really simple and really approachable with just a couple of buttons. As you level up you're learning the game, and thus you become used to having more buttons as they land on your bars.

It turns out that this form of progression feels very empowering, and because it feels empowering, it feels rewarding when the power increases.

Welcome to RPG's.

A recent problem we've had is that Blizzard often takes progress away from us that we've already earned, and that does feel bad, but with a 120 levels and us having killed literal gods at this point, and having done so several times, it was starting to feel necessary.

10/11/2018 08:49Posted by Thysilis
Or they would have to get rid of azerite traits and make them into the new talents, but that would make gear progression less important since you could get all the advantages of that system without ever setting foot in a raid or dungeon. I don't think most people would be happy with that.
There's definitely something to be said about progressing your core class, and not just your gear, when you're doing end-game content. It can definitely be cool. Vanilla actually has this in the form of higher ranked skill books, and of course live has in the form of Azerite traits.

I think there's room for both. I think there's room for talents and incremental skill improvements when levelling AND Azerite traits or whatever they wanna come up with at the same time.

10/11/2018 10:49Posted by Jesi
Talent trees are and always were useless~ People Google what to pick to be most competitive and everyone ends with the same build. Whats the point?

They should remove talents overall~ Most are so useless that there is no choice anyway.
It's not about choices, although meaningful choices are certainly a good thing. It's about agency. It's about your clicking a button that makes you stronger because you earned the right to click that button.

Is everybody in here going to tell me that it feels pointless that Diablo 2 has skill improvement points when you level up because www.diabloii.net exists? No, of course not. That's absurd.
09/11/2018 10:33Posted by Kinetik
09/11/2018 10:30Posted by Lohsa
no, we need a NEW functional system, like Nithsethel said, when it comes down to numbers as this game does you are tied to what works best, talent trees are fine for games like ElderScrolls, where you can be what you want to be, but here?..wrong talents..size 9 boot..:p


The game is supposed to be an RPG like ES not an e-sport number crushing system
Lmao, no it isn't. WoW never was an RPG for the simple fact that the story is mostly npc driven with almost no pc influence. The closest it came to an RPG was in Legion, but it was still far from actually being one. WoW is an MMOG with some rpg elements, but it is not an MMORPG. On the other hand WoW has always been about numbers. Even in Vanila after we stopped being scrubs.
Is everybody in here going to tell me that it feels pointless that Diablo 2 has skill improvement points (...)


No... But D3 paragon system have not gave me any pleasure and I was getting button to press with each level ;)
Lmao, no it isn't. WoW never was an RPG for the simple fact that the story is mostly npc driven with almost no pc influence. The closest it came to an actual RPG was in Legion, but it was still far from actually being one. WoW is an MMOG with some rpg elements, but it is not an MMORPG
Roleplaying game does not automatically imply branching dialogue options. It implies playing a character with a role and developing that character by playing that role.

World of Warcraft was absolutely an MMORPG, but every time Blizzard starts to !@#$ around by making levelling do nothing or removing all customisation options from a class it becomes less of an RPG.

We've now reach peak absurdity where we've got a (former) MMORPG that has a disgruntled fanbase that likes RPG's and another happy fanbase that hates RPG's but think they're playing one. It's quite the spectacle.

10/11/2018 10:58Posted by Jesi
No... But D3 paragon system have not gave me any pleasure and I was getting button to press with each level ;)
Well the D3 paragon system is incredibly barebones and it also isn't character development, since it's account shared.

But do you think D3 would be better if it didn't have Paragon levels? That's the real question here.
10/11/2018 10:45Posted by Dommina
Bladestorm used to be an ability not a talent


More proof that people don't know what they're talking about when discussing old talent trees I guess.
10/11/2018 10:59Posted by Ishayu
Roleplaying game does not automatically imply branching dialogue options. It implies playing a character with a role and developing that character by playing that role.

World of Warcraft was absolutely an MMORPG, but every time Blizzard starts to !@#$ around by making levelling do nothing or removing all customisation options from a class it becomes less of an RPG.

That is not what I mean. You don't need those to qualify for an RPG. Customization does not make an RPG. The role of your character in the story does.

In an RPG the pc is actively driving the story forward like you do in Diablo 2 or Dragon Age. In WoW npc are in the drivers seat. Your character is usually not. The story progresses without you.
10/11/2018 11:06Posted by Leymaiden
10/11/2018 10:45Posted by Dommina
Bladestorm used to be an ability not a talent


More proof that people don't know what they're talking about when discussing old talent trees I guess.


An ability is something you trigger on your character, an action.

+2% haste is not triggered, it is passive. It is NOT an ability.
You can make this argument about anything, but fundamentally this is the point of levelling. You start as a nameless adventurer with nothing to your name, and your investment in your character will grow that character into a hero by constantly improving it. [...]


You are completely missing the point here. You can't just make up new talents that make the player more powerful because that would make the endgame content less challenging, the total power level of a level 120 character needs to remain constant.
The system already works as you just described it, so why change it? Introducing more talents might make it work no longer. If everyone under level 50 or 80 or 100 suddenly deals less damage and casts slower because of new talents then the game becomes needlessy more frustrating at low level. All so you can have the illusion of getting stronger, when in reality you are just as strong at that level as you were with the current system, and weaker before that. Spending 5 seconds to click on some "1% more damage" talent every level adds nothing of value to the game.

People here are inventing arbitrary definitions of the RPG genre and then use that as an argument for changing fundamental systems. These definitions are irrelevant. The game should not be designed around dogmas, it should be designed around what works.

There is no reason to dig up some 15 year old game design and put it in the game again.
10/11/2018 11:10Posted by Liri
That is not what I mean. You don't need those to qualify for an RPG. Customization does not make an RPG. The role of your character in the story does.

In an RPG the pc is actively driving the story forward like you do in Diablo 2 or Dragon Age. In WoW npc are in the drivers seat. Your character is usually not. The story progresses without you.
No, the state of everyone else progresses without you. What makes the game stop being an RPG and progress without you is that the story is supposed to progress along with your progressing your character, and Blizzard keeps undermining that with catch-up mechanics.

That's actually a really interesting thought. Is WoW less of an RPG because Blizzard catches our characters up so we don't get to influence our progression that drives us through the story ourselves, but instead progresses the story on us by progressing our characters on us automatically?

I'd say yes, it actually does.

10/11/2018 11:37Posted by Thysilis
You are completely missing the point here. You can't just make up new talents that make the player more powerful because that would make the endgame content less challenging, the total power level of a level 120 character needs to remain constant.
Yeah it would.

10/11/2018 11:37Posted by Thysilis
The system already works as you just described it, so why change it?
No it doesn't. Well, maybe to the extent that the game has like 15 meaningful levels out of a 120, and the rest are dead end wastes of time that reward nothing, but I think that's the point. The talent trees and lack of scaling fix that.

10/11/2018 11:37Posted by Thysilis
Introducing more talents might make it work no longer.
Why would that be the case? That's really weird.

10/11/2018 11:37Posted by Thysilis
If everyone under level 50 or 80 or 100 suddenly deals less damage and casts slower because of new talents then the game becomes needlessy more frustrating at low level.
I like how you confuse "more difficult" with "more frustrating". You like things easy, don't you?

Anyway, if this is such a big concern, simply nerf the mobs when the patch comes out. Problem solved.

10/11/2018 11:37Posted by Thysilis
All so you can have the illusion of getting stronger, when in reality you are just as strong at that level as you were with the current system, and weaker before that. Spending 5 seconds to click on some "1% more damage" talent every level adds nothing of value to the game.
It's not an illusion. It's because you're being a little bit dense (sorry) in that you're comparing your level 120 character to the power of a low level character and saying "see, it got worse!" but nobody is ever going to experience their level 120 character become a low level character, so that's irrelevant.

You need to compare a character of a lower level to that of a higher level and observe how much stronger it gets, not the other way around. The other way around literally never happens.

10/11/2018 11:37Posted by Thysilis
These definitions are irrelevant. The game should not be designed around dogmas, it should be designed around what works.
Fair enough. The current levelling system doesn't work. Are you happy now?

The current WoW levelling system is literally one of the most boring games I have ever played. It's absolutely atrocious.

10/11/2018 11:37Posted by Thysilis
There is no reason to dig up some 15 year old game design and put it in the game again.
The age of the design is irrelevant to whether it's good design or not. We've still got a lot of useful tools and objects that were designed in the stone age. Doesn't make them bad designs.

If the design of WoW 15 years ago is more fun than the design of WoW today, the reason for putting in a 15 year old design is that it would make WoW more fun. The end.
10/11/2018 10:40Posted by Essea
The old talent system was much better.

1) There were more options, period.
2) Sense of progress in puting a new point while lvling.
3) There was no best build, bc that all depends on how you want to play it .


Many "options" were just filler points though - you had to put five points into some +1 or +2 % increases so you could put the sixth point into your signature spell, for example. Or just spend three more points in those wands so you'd be allowed to spend point 31 at all. It might have given you a sense of progress but in reality it was almost as restrictive as the system today. Someone could ofc have fun with just about any sort of combo, but if you wanted any of the useful picks you'd still end up close to one of the cookie cutter builds - only not as good.

But I do miss the ability to do certain hybrid trees.


You can name it what you will, but being able to click that filler point, making you a little bit stronger, did give you a bit of sense of progress. Ppl complain now about the lvling, that there is no sense of progress (no new spells, or whatever when lvling), but that starts there.
Ppl can argue something is useless and have it removed, ofc. But the entire purpose of wow is useless and ultimately the entire purpose of life itself is pointless. That doesnt make it right to just delete it. On the contrary.

"useful" picks, everyone doing the same; is what i tried to negate here. You didnt have to. The fact most ppl did, bc of herd mentality and lack of interest in puting time in to research things yourself, does not justify its removal.

You already state you loved the hybrid option, so i dont need to expand on that. And it would get lengthy too.

Dont agree with the "not as good" , bc that depends on the task at hand and how you perform.
For instance, i got some flak back in LK for having rune tap on my dps dk. But my math was: +10% hp to all party members is much more valuable to the group, than a bit more dps. I relieved healers and often even prevented a wipe...
120 points in the old talent tree system... Ye... No thanks.

Only way I can see that work was to put many of our current baseline abilities into the talent tree. Or we'd just overflow with useless choises or be way overpowered too early. The old way of getting something new every level doesn't fit todays 120 levels.

Also I remember having issues meeting lvl 29 spiders on my lvl 30 mage back then... Because my pick of "fun" talents made me unable to pull enough dps to kill them in time. My lack of kiting skills didn't help of course. But still.
10/11/2018 12:29Posted by Stilken
120 points in the old talent tree system... Ye... No thanks.

Only way I can see that work was to put many of our current baseline abilities into the talent tree. Or we'd just overflow with useless choises or be way overpowered too early. The old way of getting something new every level doesn't fit todays 120 levels.

Also I remember having issues meeting lvl 29 spiders on my lvl 30 mage back then... Because my pick of "fun" talents made me unable to pull enough dps to kill them in time. My lack of kiting skills didn't help of course. But still.
A true point. A bigger question is, does 120 levels fit WoW?

I think that's a little outside the scope of this thread, but I really think 120 levels is way too many.
Frankly the old talent system was a right mess. Adjusting it was a drag. I like the current talent system but wish there were more options in every tier.
09/11/2018 09:21Posted by Nithsethel
the old talent tree was a cookie cutter build

Who cares? it was still more enjoyable. Every level meant something too.
People simply doesnt know what they are asking for, it would be a mess with 120 levels. So no, an absurdly bad idea.
I don't want the old trees back, really, but I do miss the feeling I got whilst levelling up and always "working towards" little things that make my spec play a little better, do a little more damage etc. I think that's something the game sorely misses right now, and as hard as blizzard want to shove rental gear down our throats with the past two expansions, it's not a model that even comes close to replacing it.

HOWEVER: I do think blizzard needs to look long and hard at the levelling process, and bring the feeling that the old trees had back in terms of always being able to "look forward" to something. A fair middle ground, I think, would be the WoD levelling perks. A lot of people won't remember this, because it happened in the background and wasn't something you took notice of after hitting max level, but every 2 levels you got a little "perk" from 92-100 and they did each have the same impact as say 3-4 old talent points. They did somewhat bring that feeling back, and I think iterating on that system by bringing it into the UI (Instead of just behind the scenes) and maybe saying you get 1 point every 3 levels (To coincide neatly with the current talents up to the final row) and you can choose the order to some extent.

Just an idea. I really liked the feeling of progression the old talent trees provided, but I also like being able to chop and change things for specific purposes in the current system.
People like to make meaningful choices. The want to join Saurfang or Sylvanas. But for some reason they don’t want to do it for their character.

Of course People google what’s best. I did the same for my hunter. Sadly. Because the new system doesn’t motivate to experiment. It’s ot engaging. The old talent trees had choices. Some meaningful, some not.

At least with auerite armor, even if these are hated right niw, give me choices. Different petls for different armor for differen sources. What Artifact weapon should have done if you wouldn’t have got all of these perks. That’s ruining AW for me.

But it’s sad if the only leveling experience you get is on max level. Makes all the 120 lvls before a joke.

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