Bring Back the Old talents tree

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Here, I will explain you why current system is better, but will also mention godo side of the original one.

Back in the days, there was only one viable spec and that was it. For instance, I played Destruction warlock and there was one spec for PVE and that's it.

Unlike that however, nowdays on my Moonkin (and especially in Legion), I had one spec for single target, one for minor cleave fight and one for heavy aoe fights.

In that regard, there is much more versatility now days.

What was better before however, was the feeling that with each level you got a bit stronger. I don't question that.

Regards,
Imm
15/11/2018 09:24Posted by Immortall
Unlike that however, nowdays on my Moonkin (and especially in Legion), I had one spec for single target, one for minor cleave fight and one for heavy aoe fights.

In that regard, there is much more versatility now days.
No there isn't. There's just you occationally pressing a tome of clear mind in order to make your character as versatile as it was by default beforehand.

For a specialisation to actually feel like a specialisation, it has to be a lot harder to change. As a consequence, it must also be more well-rounded. The talent tree sytem achieved this.
Next talent tree: Nonexistant, you just have your spellbook - nothing else.
15/11/2018 09:38Posted by Ishayu
For a specialisation to actually feel like a specialisation, it has to be a lot harder to change. As a consequence, it must also be more well-rounded. The talent tree sytem achieved this.


I agree with the idea, but this can be achieved in other ways too, like the legendary weapon in Legion for example. Also you're missing the distinction between talents and spec.
Still have you seen the backlash to the azerite traits not changing with spec?
15/11/2018 09:38Posted by Ishayu
15/11/2018 09:24Posted by Immortall
Unlike that however, nowdays on my Moonkin (and especially in Legion), I had one spec for single target, one for minor cleave fight and one for heavy aoe fights.

In that regard, there is much more versatility now days.
No there isn't. There's just you occationally pressing a tome of clear mind in order to make your character as versatile as it was by default beforehand.

For a specialisation to actually feel like a specialisation, it has to be a lot harder to change. As a consequence, it must also be more well-rounded. The talent tree sytem achieved this.


Way to spin things around.

Either way, back then we had only one viable (PVE) spec, while now days there are multiple, talk what you want. It is your decision to perceive it that way, but objective fact is that suring TBC i didn't change talent's a single time, while during Legion I changed it multiple times during the same raid, and performed differnet play style.

Regards,
Imm
15/11/2018 10:10Posted by Immortall
Either way, back then we had only one viable (PVE) spec, while now days there are multiple, talk what you want.
This is factually entirely incorrect. The best spec was different depending on gear for a lot of classes, several classes had hybrid builds that were better than the pure builds,

15/11/2018 10:10Posted by Immortall
TBC i didn't change talent's a single time
And how far, pray tell, did you manage to get?

Also: Is this necessarily a bad thing? If you spend the entirety of tBC doing the same thing with the same character, why would you change your specialisation all the time? Isn't it nice that your character was consistently the same entity, and only when gear got better or the balance changes would there be a reason to change your spec?
Nah the actual talent system is more compatible with the mobil gamers because it require less brain. We know that wow will be a mobile game in next expansion, right?
15/11/2018 09:24Posted by Immortall
Here, I will explain you why current system is better, but will also mention godo side of the original one.

Back in the days, there was only one viable spec and that was it. For instance, I played Destruction warlock and there was one spec for PVE and that's it.

Unlike that however, nowdays on my Moonkin (and especially in Legion), I had one spec for single target, one for minor cleave fight and one for heavy aoe fights.

In that regard, there is much more versatility now days.

What was better before however, was the feeling that with each level you got a bit stronger. I don't question that.

Regards,
Imm


Old talents had multiple ways to spec aswell, aoe, cleave, slow, etc. BUT people went with the cookie cutter build (Wich still exist with the new talents) cuz you couldn't Respec easily, old talents with the new Tome Respec where ever you want, wouldnt be the best option.
This is factually entirely incorrect. The best spec was different depending on gear for a lot of classes, several classes had hybrid builds that were better than the pure builds


Yeah no. Most classes had only one single viable build, at least if you were competitive raiding. If no, you could spec anything, but you can do that now days as well, if you don't play competitive raiding.

15/11/2018 10:15Posted by Ishayu
And how far, pray tell, did you manage to get?


To Brutallus, guild fell apart after wping drained us, only for him to be nerfed some time after.

15/11/2018 10:15Posted by Ishayu
Also: Is this necessarily a bad thing? If you spend the entirety of tBC doing the same thing with the same character, why would you change your specialisation all the time? Isn't it nice that your character was consistently the same entity, and only when gear got better or the balance changes would there be a reason to change your spec?


I admit it's not necessarily a bad thing. What it does mean however, is that I didn't have aoe spec or single target spec back then, I had one pve spec and that's it.

Now days I have
ST pve spec
Cleave spec
Heavy AOE spec
M+ spec

You effectivelly play in different way, have different rotation, which is good and prevent you from playing the same old the time. (as in TBC).

Not sure why you're trying to relativize this. Again, I liked how old talens had very nice feeling of you growing stronger with ever level, I wish we had that again, but don't say they offered more versatility.

Edit: typos

Regards,
Imm
15/11/2018 11:27Posted by Immortall
Yeah no. Most classes had only one single viable build, at least if you were competitive raiding. If no, you could spec anything, but you can do that now days as well, if you don't play competitive raiding.
Yeah, yes they did. For example, some raid zones were entirely immune to a spell type, meaning you literally had to pick the other spell type. This was more of a vanilla thing, though.

In addition, there were different best builds depending on how you were assigned. Of course any class that had multiple roles had different specs, but sometimes the best spec could depend on whether or not there would be enough debuff slots for you. Yes, tBC had 40 slots, but that was still an important consideration for warlocks, as a DoT based build could out-DPS a shadowbolt spammer if and only if there were enough debuff slots.

There were also several builds for classes like Paladins or Shamans, because in some cases having multiples of the same totem was not worth it. I can come up with an avalanche of examples.

Just because you didn't respec your character between every bossfight does not imply that other people, even decent players, were playing your build.

And, of course, there was the PvP builds. I remember there being 3 viable Feral builds alone, while Mages had the PoM+pyro and the 17/0/44 build and there was even an element (mix frost and fire) build at one point. Hunters transitioned into a mana drain build at some point as well. Disc Priests could go for big damage or big mana burning.

I'll spare you further examples, but let me just say there was a reason why people asked for dual spec. I disagree with that reason, but I can see why they did it.

15/11/2018 11:27Posted by Immortall
You effectivelly play in different way, have different rotation, which is good and prevent you from playing the same old the time. (as in TBC).
You also play differently with different rotations in tBC depending on the situation. The only difference is that, in tBC, you can change your rotation as it suits you in combat, whereas in BfA, you have to change it before combat, and then you become locked in.

This isn't specialisation - it's just making our characters less versatile.
15/11/2018 11:55Posted by Ishayu
This isn't specialisation - it's just making our characters less versatile.


It doesn't (compared to the old).
Look everything you posted so far is textbook nostalgia, when talking about the past you say "you could have done X, Y and Z" but in the present you "must do only X".
What you say could easily be swapped around and have the same merit. You could play with different talents now just as easily as you name past builds.

You're also cherry picking a lot, again because it's nostalgia, you're comparing the best of the past with the worst of the present. You're talking about playing different rotations? As a warlock you were spamming shadowbolts, sure you could be doing something else but it was a dps loss; as an elemental shaman you were spamming lightning bolt, because you had nothing else.
And speaking of immune bosses, at Hydros for example elemental shamans were forced to heal in nature phase and back then it was acceptable. You are comparing that level of optimization with the expectations of today.

Lastly you name different builds, but those didn't exist in the same time, each were THE build of their time based on how blizz changed the game.
Seriously there's too much wrong with everything you say to go over.
15/11/2018 10:03Posted by Gannet
15/11/2018 09:38Posted by Ishayu
For a specialisation to actually feel like a specialisation, it has to be a lot harder to change. As a consequence, it must also be more well-rounded. The talent tree sytem achieved this.


I agree with the idea, but this can be achieved in other ways too, like the legendary weapon in Legion for example


The legendary weapon is not a talent tree since you HAVE NO CHOICE but to fully fil it, so FMage A = FMage B = FMage C

To be clear the idea is not to copy past the old talent trees but to build a new one on the same philosophy, as any well respected RPG WoW should have a decent talent tree.

A starting idea is maybe keep the actual one for Active talents and the old one for passive talents while keeping the cross specs talents possible.

Actually it just feels blank, we are that close were leveling and spec 'build' have no meaning at all, even Blizzard said @blizzcon that leveling is completely wrong nowaday but they are afraid to make changes.

Characters have no freedom for the player to distinguish himself even in an illusive manner, this also lower the fun as you can't break free sometimes from your sequential gameplay.

Today players like Vurtne will be average joe if they came back to the game 'cause everybody should do the same thing at the same time and following the way blizzard planned.

in my POV it is actually one of the core features Blizzard took away to make the game a themed park tour inside a well sealed car were everything is in check.
15/11/2018 15:02Posted by Kinetik
The legendary weapon is not a talent tree since you HAVE NO CHOICE but to fully fil it, so FMageA = FMage B = FMage C


I didn't say it's a talent tree, this isn't what i quoted or responded to, it's about something tied to your spec that you can't change on a whim.

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