Why I feel like Quitting the Lore For Good.

Story
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I just got the incredible feeling that I'm been taken for a ride at developers' whims. So I just feel like letting the story die to me completely and just not care because I can't trust anything.

There are so many parts in warcraft lore I like, but so little effort for consistency, i have no confidence in the future, that when i like something or love it even, that it actually means something because tomorrow it will be retconned or thrown under the bus.

What made me think of this just now? Well it's all those instances - lore in game or novels has shifted, retconned, re-cast in a worse light, the failure to keep to the integrity of a good plot that was started and changing it for a seeming whim. The inability to care enough even to make the game lore play straight through. How long must i wait.

We're enjoying the little bone we've been thrown for night elvesin 8.1 - reason I'm not letting myself jump for joy? Because they'll forget about them totally in 8.2 against Azshara - that is their number 1 enemy, been part of thier lore from day 1, her naga always attacking night elven lands and trying to kill them. Yet, because Sylvanas has pissed Tyrande off so much, she'll have her "moment" in Darkshore, and that would be "night elves' high@

Quote: From Ion Hazzikostas https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/9usbtb/rwow_blizzcon_interview/
There has to be a balance between highs and lows in a story.

So after murdering them in the sundering to near extinction, robbing them of their immortality, stripping them of power from Well of Eternity, World Tree, making them look like noobs to the horde in cataclysm, leaving them out of the final push against the legion, then giving htem a second genocide - massive low *you don't get lows lower than that, it's massive sting of lows and critical lows" so where are the massive string of highs and critical highs? -- why do I feel like the night elf high - is a warfront where Tyrande looks the role she should have been for the last 14 years, in a warfront who's outcome is meaningless - and they will go, "there! we did something for night elves. Gave them their high"

Meanwhile lets find more things from night elves we can give to other races and the horde to make them even cooler. Left homeless, near extinction, still a civilizaiton in ruins, 10,000 years and still counting, most of the power still gone - yet it was okay to see BElves get a recovery going, Sunwell back, restored to thalassian lands, power not only back, but upgraded. Then blood elves written quite strongly (as i would expect) afterwards, but no such treatment for night elves?

Talk of consistency? Why isn't Thalyssra and the nightborne not in the alliance with the night elves - i mean a more perfect story for the night elf arcane rejoining the main branch and being redeemed from callous recklessness coudl not have been written - long have night elf fans waited for the night elves amidst 14 years of constant ruins to get 1 pristine city - and bang it goes horde.

First time night elves are a focus since wow, couldn't give em the send off against the Legion - the story writing this races civilziaiton ruined by this foe, then every group - Long vigil, Eldre'thalas, SUramar all in isolation because of this enemy, the long vigil group going to great extremes to prevent its return - their lives ALL about stopping the legion, even arcane magic they love so much, they ban, the well anathema not for the good it use to bring, but for the threat of returning the legion. Their immortality lost to defeat it a second time, and much of the nature part of their power - gone - and what role do the Darnassians play against the Legion ? ZERO - don't get me wrong, great to see new night elf groups like the nightborne, Farondis, Moonguard = applaud 100% - but then come 7.1 and 7.2 , firstly Tyrande, in her home city is reduced to counterpart to Liadrin (not even racial leader), goes about announcing the Alliance is here to help rather than the GOddess -- she is freaking high priestesss, her Order's capital, and main temple --

showing me how little they care - instead its more important for Liadrin to prance, than for Tyrande to get involved. Why did we not see The order of Elune, bringing the salvation of the goddess to the afflicted and the vengeance of mother moon against the evil destroyers? How I would have loved to see Tyrande Starfall a bunch of demons trying to devour some hapless nightborne, or set up radiance of the stars - areas where those intentionally starved have their hunger pangs subdued by the light of the moon - instead .. then don't get me started on the broken shore - where the main temple is, where we shoudl have seen the Order of Elune interact with every class order hall, and Tyrande herself as high priestess leading the charge to reclaim the Tomb/Cathedral - instead it was more important for Khadgar to be there.. Khadgar.

Velen and the draenei, 100% agree with taking us to Argus, illidan making it possible, great move also, it makes sense the new night elf groups would perhaps stay behind, but Darnassians? the group who has suffered most from the legion, and the ones who fought it from the start missing?

In-Game Continuity
As for that, it is such a mess, I can never go through and play /experience every change that happened in wow. The mere fact that Sylvanas is issuing quests that Thrall, Garrosh, Vol'jin all issued is so jarring, key lore events part of pre-expansion events, and end game patches removed - if you didn't play Mist of pandaria while it was playing you will never fully understand what is going on, the Vale of Eternal blossoms is cracked and broken before you can do the quest that explains it, key quests removed as the next state appears.. no attempt, i mean no attempt to make a way for you to actually go through all this.

Then there is the jarring inconsistency that is TBC and WotLK in the timeline, with 0 explanation - and the only way to understand the continuity is to buy 3 volumes?

Then the Night Elven History
Blizzard introduced the night elves with such flair and imagination - reading about them being the first to study magic, build a civilziaiton unparralled, the first to master druidsm, build a world tree - Elune the goddess watching over them, and they knowing her, specialists at spellcraft and ranged fire power is what the manual said - then the game showed, incredible things, the novels reveaeled even greater things.

And then wow came, and only a fraction of the race was shown. Only the peaceful , serene side (which I like) but without the aggressive, dangerous side - they just look like chumps, only the druid side shown, where was the priest? and what about the great hope of the arcane returning now the legion was back? Teased with ruins all over the place, night elves can use magic again, why aren't they rebuilding or progressing?

Answer came in Cataclysm - it was simple. NEglect, time spent focusing on blood elves, draenei, humans, orcs, Lich king, and in cata, they had to update the old world, so naturally finally new stuff came, but the focus was goblins, thrall, dragaon aspects, and we saw no updates for darnassus to accomodate returned highborne nor worgen - i.e. NEGLECt - time taken to show everything else, but them.

With people like Tyrande and Malfurion around, why Tyrande wasn't in Outland trying to get through to Ilildan, silent till MoP, Malfurion - plays a minor role in Hyjal, HYJAL - Thrall ofc is the man, MAlfurion just fades away - you could argue it makes sense for the shaman to be in control here being an elemental thing.. okay (even though there is no reason why such a powerful characters like Malfurion and Tyrande won't play a key roll) but okay, however when it comes to matters that are back in their court, like the Legion - Malfurion gets the EMerald dream, but no where to be seen in the final push against the legion, - i didn't mind that too much, because his brother Ilildan was shining.. but Tyrande? what's her excuse... ah - i get it, they showed her in 7.1 ..so that was enough.

So come 8.2, because we have seen the darnassians in a warfront, means we won't see them agianst Azshara, an di'm supposed to be happy with this. Lets not even go to the retcon of night elves coming from trolls, and troll history being shifted from post sundering to pre-night elf - i wonder what was so unsatisfactory of the original version that this twist was soo necessary, it just seemed going out of the way to be different rather than actually doing something cool that was different. But let's not even go there

Then the Nightborne
I didn't even get to talk about the nightborne going horde, and what an insult it is to night elf fans, and the fact that they dind't even have to have all of them over, but it's okay for the alliance to get an exiled remnant of blood elves, with no city, no assets, no sunwell, but when it comes to the nightborne, we can't give the horde a remnant of the night elves greatest civilization, no, we have to give them the pristine city and all the nightborne too, because the horde clearly needs more arcane wielding elves, and clearly needed more elven cities too, blood evles weren't nearly enough, and apparently weren't the ones living only at half mast with the nature half waiting for a full arcane halt to make them whole.

The Thalyssra character who if you have read WotA, is a fusion of Tyrande and Malfurion - there is no more fitting a bunch of people that match the kaldorei like a glove than the nightfallen rebellion characters, Thalyssra, Ly'leth, occuleth, and their own Sylvans' horde that has committed genocide against their own people who helped them - after the talk of defending the world, working so closely with VAlewalker Farodin, the Moonguard, the Suramar kaldorei refugees, and her desire to help and do right that reminds me so much of Tyrande and Malfurion - and you mean to tell me she all of a sudden U-turns and decides to go horde, and get this - b/c Tyrande is strict with her? Dont' get me wrong, I can understand a cocky nightborne from the city having that reaction, or Elisande having that reaction, but humbled Thalyssra, and all the others too? And it wasn't even necessary - horde could have gotten the nightborne without the nightfallen rebellion, who i say should have stayed neutral to both factions, while some of the arrogant city folk, in search of more power and glory, join the horde because they believe their best chances at reagining their power and control lie with joinign the stronger faction.

But no, they all had to go horde, but a tiny fraction of exiled thalassians is enough for the alliance followed by genocide of their race.

Where does This Leave Me?
Wondering why I have botehred and allowed myself to get so invested in something i know is going to let me down - like the people who keep going back to the bad boyfriend (or girlfriend), they know is no good, they know is a waste of time, they know is not fulfilling them because they aren't being decent about it.

You know who would get continuous involvement and relevance, who they would make sure everything about her character and lore is in line? Sylvanas. Yes, the favourites will always get good treatment.

I have been meaning to quit the lore until better treatement came for night elves - and I think I shall and will give it till 8.2 to turn things around. If 8.2 indeed fails to actually follow the consistency of the story by failing to include night elves against Azshara, then i would know, Darkshore was the "high" and that's all they are getting and i'm not waiting around another 14 years to actually see things pick up.

If blizzard can't see they have a winner in the night elves, that can carry the franchise better than Orcs and are more appealing than humans, and instead prefer to squander them to push favourites like Sylvanas and her nasty ways, then their choice. It's their game, they can throw away their greatest gem if they want, but don't expect me to respect them for it.

RANT OVER.
Because they'll forget about them totally in 8.2 against Azshara - that is their number 1 enemy, been part of thier lore from day 1, her naga always attacking night elven lands and trying to kill them.

So what, there are other Alliance races who have suffered just as much as the Night Elves because of Azshara. Such as the Kul Tiran Humans, whose legendary fleet was cursed and imprisoned for weeks by Azshara and her dark servants, and Fort Daelin was invaded by the Naga. Without even taking the "dark secret" beneath the Stormsong Valley into account, which will become a raid tied to Azshara.

In particular, the fabled Kul Tiran Fleet will make for a great weapon to use against the ugly Azshara, since it is blessed by the very sacred magics of the Tides.

But what's more, It is clear that Kul Tirans will play an even more active role in the battle against N'zoth, who directly threatens Boralus and must be dealt with.

10/11/2018 23:06Posted by Kalibas
and are more appealing than humans


Since when did your personal opinion become an universal fact?
10/11/2018 23:06Posted by Kalibas
Then the Nightborne


My blood boils when talking about them. Urghh this is one of the worst story/lore decisions ever put into the game. And the way they did it as well ruined Thalyssra because she is now just some 2-faced b*tch who went back on everything she has said throughout Legion.

But people defend it, it just makes me laugh (or cry, can't tell really which one xd) when you get the Nightborne defense brigade show up and defend it.

I mean if they are going to genocide the Night Elves then you have a perfect opportunity to get more of the Nightborne-Night Elves interactions even if it is just helping with refugees. Then give the Horde a actually allied race which suits them. But naaa we have this sh*te currently.
This might come across as a bit harsh, but I'll go ahead anyway.

While I admit that now is a good time to quit out of a disgust for the state of WoW's writing which is worse than ever, please acknowledge that there is more to the lore than your pet race. Learn to enjoy the entirety of the story rather than fixate on a specific aspect that your enjoyment of the story revolves around.

For example, I have grown sick of the entirety of World of Warcraft's writing, how each faction is being treated, how almost every race is being treated and the lack of any improvement in the near future. Not just because I disagree with the direction that my favourite race is being taken in.

Fixating on a single facet of the setting just means that you'll be toxic when it's not getting what you consider appropriate attention. Which is... most of the time, because there's no way that WoW can cover every aspect of its setting with every content patch, let alone cover every aspect in a positive way. It's an unhealthy way of enjoying the lore, if 'enjoying' is the right word at all, since you clearly dislike the way that the lore has been going for elves since the inception of WoW.

Get a healthier perception of the lore or distance yourself from it - or perhaps the game entirely.
P.s. not a single Lore Q & A, not through all of Legion, none in BFA, and no presence on the story forum at all.

No chance to ask questions or discussions about their thoughts or why they made certain decisions, or if we should have hope for changes.

I have so many questions:
I wanna know if we will start seeing the playable night elves as night elves (fusion between dark elf and forest elf) instead of just forest elf.

I wanna know why did they mock up the night elf recovery by giving the nightborne to the horde, and if they intend to raise the profile of the night elf highborne to replace them or if there is still more to come with the nightborne and the alliance.

I wanna know if beating Azshara would lift the Farondis curse, and if they will have a role to play, he seemed an excellent and noble highborne leader. And night elf numbers are very low.

I want to know for sure if night elves will have role against Azshara.

I want to know what was the reason for leaving Tryande and the Order of Elune out of the Broken shore and having their Suramar involvement about the alliance rather than returning to Elune

I want to know if the nightborne priesthood is the Order of Elune, and if we will see some nightborne defect to night elves.

I want to know for sure if the arcan'dor fruit that reverses the nightwell corruption can actually revert nightborne to kaldorei, and if that can be accelerated - and if so, if they will ever make use of that.

I want to know why nightborne cannot be druids, given that Valewalker Farodin is the reason they're not all Withered, and that tey clearly have an affinity for nature, as all night elf kind do as seen in the Nighthold Gardens - with the change of perception and Farodin with them, why can't they be druids?

Druidism in wow is an Elven themed thing, the balance druids the core of the specialization really show the arcane roots of the night elves, and the children of the stars feature that gives them their names, so why aren't more elves druids? Especially nightborne, and thalassina elves that have joined the alliance? And will they be able to?We have more non-elven druid races than elven ones.

Did it not make sense for mage/druid/priest to be the elven staple main magic classes? All elves love magic, nature and fairly devoted lot, most of all night elves. Who just do everything to extreme - which i love btw.

Is the more of the mystery of Elune going to be revealed?

night elven priestesses in WotA trilogy, could use shadow/void magic, and night elves are described as having shadowy powers but not being evil - it is used for disciplinary purposes or protection - is this a connection to the void?

Is there a chance for a strong friendship with void elves and night elven priests, highborne and demon hunters?

Any plans for the Illidari night elves to play a positive role in the night elves recovery?

How has night elf society reacted to the big revealtions about the Legion? That demon hunters were never in league, that Illidan was always playing the legion and hadn't actually betrayed them, that the legion was after the world soul not their magic (that was just a bonus and a means to get it), that regardless of whether they had quit the arcane or dispersed the well, the legion would have still found them?

Will we get young night elf males wanting to become demon hunters? With the legion defeated, would the horde genocide be their motivation?

Will demon hunters now be revered or still reviled? or both? - is that another night elf juxtaposition in the making?

WIth the night elves nearly extinct, will we see them power up in more than one way? The elune power up is the night warrior - but there is also the Well of Eternity they are made from and linked too, and the World Tree that connects to the emerald dream the druids can employ - altogether giving them an arcane, nature and Elune boost

Do you intend to continue to write night elves as forests elves only or shall we see their arcane element restored to the same level of prominence as the druids and priests and show their mastery equal to the horde night elves - the shen'dralar did continue studying the arcane too for 10,000 years after the sundering, and their city was also intact up until 200 years ago according to the lore.

The shen'dralar are they equal to, greater than or slightly less experienced than the nightborne in the arcane - they were Queen Azshara's most revered arcanists, also is it only the nightborne that have the chronomancy edge or do the shen'dralar have that too?

Do the shen'dralar highborne have any other edge to them? Did it make a difference they weren't living in an unimpenetrable shield but unlike the nightborne had their challenges of a sundered worlld to deal with.

It is said they scryed the world around obsessed with gaining knowledge, and craving it for it like most would gold, does that mean they are the most knowledgeable night elves around as they have probably been aware of every development and were the defacto repository for lore until they joined the kaldorei.

Have the Farondis ghosts been able to learn and develop magic? They seem to be aware of time passing as they follow us through events, is it safe to assume they are also the 3rd knowledge intact night elven group like the nightborne and shen'dralar?

The Moonguard have few more surivors according to the mission table quests, and 3 of their greatest leaders, will we see them restored?

The dreamweavers of Val'sharah - are they all night elven? A full night elven druidic culture? and Is Celestine of the Harvest a Gilnean or Night elven worgen set free because of the nightmare?

Can Shaladrassil recover now the nightmare has been defeated and banished?

Will the night elves restore the Great Temple of Elune? i.e. Cathedral of Eternal Night/Tomb of Sargeras, now we have destroyed the evil lurking their and sealed the Felstorm?

Will we ever see a restored version of it, with some beautiful gardens?

I like the idea of Elune backed Tyrande taking on old god backed Azshara - is that incoming? I would prefer her more than Malfurion - simply because took the kill for both the first war of the ancients, the 2nd invasion and the nightmare in Stormrage, i'm happy with him being badass, I think that is good, but would like to see Tyrande.
10/11/2018 23:13Posted by Arctur
So what, there are other Alliance races who have suffered just as much as the Night Elves because of Azshara.


And that is the point Actur, if they can forget this for the night elves, who's to say they won't for the gnomes, or for the orcs (liek they did with the orcs and the legion) or for any other race.

This is what makes me fed up. I didn't see them forgetting the humans getting involved with Arthas, although they certainly forgot that the night elves were tracking Arthas too in TFT, i also didn't see them forget the blood elves against kael'thas, nor the orcs against Garrosh and the Iron horde.

So to leave the night elves out of Azshara, would be bad, and a problem with continuity.

10/11/2018 23:28Posted by Frozenshadow
And the way they did it as well ruined Thalyssra because she is now just some 2-faced b*tch who went back on everything she has said throughout Legion.


Completely, and she was such a good characteer for what she was.. and the saddest part about that, it was so un-necessary. Horde could have gotten nightborne without her or any nightfallen rebel. It still makes my blood boil at them. This is not boiling at the in-game characters, or Tyrande, it is the decision.

And they won't even fix it, despite a perfect excuse being provided for Thalyssra and the rebels to defect, I even wrote a potential scenario here of how things could develop. It is something they could do if they did a race expansion with race campaigns, or they released more short stories that filled in lore gaps.

Or just made the effort not to break a character - but it is part of the larger problem, once they done the expansion, it's like as long as it was good for its duration, it doesn't matter if decisions that come after just rubbish half of the lore and story. tell me, how can one trust the story at all and be expected to invest their love in it? so they can be constantly betrayed by "changes of mind?"

It is this that is making feel like just quitting the damn lore, it is a major put off. And she is not the only one they've done it with. I don't want a promise of "oh we won't do it again", i want them to fix it, you can't undo Thalyssra joining the horde, but you can write her to leave it with most of hte rebels and someone else, maybe even a restored Elisande from her echoes leading the horde nightborne - I want them to go back to the old expansion and restore some of the vital lore quests they removed, i mean, i can't get the mage tower mount rewards, but the end of the artifact weapon quests was some nice lore. I want them to fix the issues. I don't want my levelling toon to have Thrall talking to me about doing something, or Garrosh appear as warchief in Stonetalon mountain, but then its Sylvanas issuing the quest or Anduin, when it should be Varian etc.

Lore for such a growing and continuous world has to be handled well, if you can't make complete stories in game, then do short stories, audio stories, cinematics or novels and fill it in. But it is best if it is shown in game.

10/11/2018 23:33Posted by Taxania
Fixating on a single facet of the setting just means that you'll be toxic when it's not getting what you consider appropriate attention. Which is... most of the time, because there's no way that WoW can cover every aspect of its setting with every content patch, let alone cover every aspect in a positive way. It's an unhealthy way of enjoying the lore, if 'enjoying' is the right word at all, since you clearly dislike the way that the lore has been going for elves since the inception of WoW.

Get a healthier perception of the lore or distance yourself from it - or perhaps the game entirely.


I tired, I think I failed, because i spot the same issues i found in my fave race, in others. But it is so confusing, because on the other hand there are some great stories they do. But some of the absences are pretty glaring.

Especially if you're reading through the story - there is no way the Darnassian night elves won't be a major force against the final push to end the legion, given all that happens, their absence without explanation is dumbfounding - it makes no sense to the lore continuity from a birdseye view - but then that the orcs also would not have a role against the legion too whiles not quite as shocking as the night elves also is a 'wtf?' moment.

I think perhaps the problem is as you say, the lore is so big, sometimes it is impossible to do everything, and they have to make decisions, and ofc not have their hands tied, but seriously, night elves not involved in Azshara or taking down the legion? That is a glaring oversight that again just a smack in the face.

It is all the more disheartening, because of how little attention night elves have got for the last 14 years, only in legion did they actually get a major focus for the first time ever in the mmo game, and they only have the Legion and Azshara tied together as their main enemy thing. So of all the enemies involved you would expect them there. But i notice they were absent again from TBC and Illidan, not even involved in his chase, only Maiev's token appearance at the end, and we had to wait nearly 10 years for the explanation in the novel.
10/11/2018 23:13Posted by Arctur
Since when did your personal opinion become an universal fact?
Must I add "in my opinion" ? I it is implied directly in the statement, Arcutr, you think humans are the world of warcraft, i think night elves are.
I'll be honest, i let my subscription lapse because of the disappointment being overwhelming, i decided to pay for 1 more month because blizzcon was the next day, and maybe they may turn it around.

I got good new with the news on the darkshore warfront, that gave him hope until i remembered all the times that it has just been a tease, and they've been quickly forgotten afterwards. And i noticed nothing of the night elves against Azshara mentioned - and i started getting the niggling feeling, like a i did about the daranssians lack of involvement in Legion.

And a horrible thought struck me, darkshore makes alliance night elves look badass and dangerous like for the first time in-game, makes them look like they are in the lore books - what if this is the high they intend - the high they give for the tragic story of losing an entire civilization to the legion and a sundered world, of living without using their arcane magic to prevent the legion from returning, from even rebuilding their lives for 10k years, only to have to expend their nature power too in the second invasion to kill of the assault, losing it too like they lost their arcane power (had to put it aside), the result of this second loss, their immortality - then they get humiliated by the horde in cataclysm (now these are not hte night elves of WC3 for sure, and certainly not the ones from the novels), and you thought that was the worse? Tyrande's token showing in SoO, but after legion expansion largely left the darnassian night elves out of it, focusing on new groups (which i'll only be fine with if they join the darnassians), it ends in the pre-event for BFA having them wiped out again.

I'm like great, more !@#$, and it takes all that to hoappen to them for them ot have a moment in dark shore, and be forgotten again.
Really? Another nightborne QQ thread? Elves are traitorous by nature, so what's surprising? Reminder that Thalyssra was completely fine with sending her own people to wither because they commited a crime by not liking Elisande for more than 9000 years. And that's not all, what exactly she did when the world needed aid because her fellow elves almost summoned Sargeras? That's right, she hid together with the rest of the rats. Why some Alliance players think she's a paragon of morality is beyond me.

She just saw that the horde will give her more power without asking so she serves along whatever plan Sylwaifu cooks up. And, before anyone claims "w-we couldn't have possibly known that!", Garithos told everyone 15 years ago. It's Alliance's own fault really, they should remember their heroes.
I do agree with most of it. The Nightborne for example I'm fine with and can't complain against. Incoming rant:

However, yes - I am sick and tired of following a lore, thinking in the back of the head "So how long until this gets retcon'd?". Warcraft 1 is the first game memory I have - barely any of the lore from those days matter.

And let's not get started with Blizzard having said "We listen to feedback, but we need the community to trust the writers." You mean like when -WE- had to point out that in the latest novel, the night elves DID do something against the blood elves in the starting zones which the writer forgot?

Or how about when they actually gave Tyrande the title of -QUEEN- in 8.1 until we informed about it? There are just so many examples (The biggest, famous part being Red shirt guy so many years ago) where the players have been in need to tell Blizzard they are doing wrong.

And the Night Elves... oh god. I may be Horde - but I feel sad for them. We've always seen them lose, lose, lose - or sacrificing something to win. I haven't been able to think of a moment they had a real victory -WITHOUT- the aid of human potential. Which even then, if we look back at MoP... said Human potential made Tyrande look like trash.

Oh hey, one of the recent interviews! They said "You can join either Saurfang or Sylvanas. Then you will see if the choice you made is right or wrong." Yeah, if you pick the wrong one - you're just wrong. It doesn't matter if you follow your beliefs that this is the right path - you're just WRONG.

Overall, the story in BfA is just bad. This is not story telling - this is fan fiction. This is the first expansion I've told my friends "I wish I could stop caring about the lore." I'm not happy with it one bit. And the sad part is that I doubt they ever will hire proper writers that care for the story...
11/11/2018 00:08Posted by Northgrave
Really? Another nightborne QQ thread?


What do you mean? We haven't had one for ages and I am inching for another proper Nightborne thread so I can argue about it xd.
11/11/2018 00:12Posted by Turidas
Oh hey, one of the recent interviews! They said "You can join either Saurfang or Sylvanas. Then you will see if the choice you made is right or wrong." Yeah, if you pick the wrong one - you're just wrong. It doesn't matter if you follow your beliefs that this is the right path - you're just WRONG.


and i am going to choose the wrong path just to spite them
11/11/2018 00:12Posted by Turidas
And the Night Elves... oh god. I may be Horde - but I feel sad for them. We've always seen them lose, lose, lose - or sacrificing something to win. I haven't been able to think of a moment they had a real victory -WITHOUT- the aid of human potential. Which even then, if we look back at MoP... said Human potential made Tyrande look like trash.


Have you ever paid attention to how trolls were handled? Night elves aren't in half as !@#$ty situation.
Blizzard figured out how to raid the future allied race capital so Horde could participate too.
Another loss of iconic leader.

Or have a look on orcs.

I'm not saying that nelves aren't in bad situation. But they're not alone. Half of the Horde is in pitiful state and now turned to be Screeching queen's lackeys.

I agree that there are many issues with story, but there are still enjoyable bits, and for me it's Zandalari lore and some singular characters that I want to see more.

I am pretty sure nelves will recover for grim times they received extra goodies, like mount, eye customization, and warfront gear.

Trolls didn't receive any facepaint of tusk ornament for Vol'Jin's death. No, were left to be irrevelant for the rest of expansion.
11/11/2018 00:12Posted by Turidas
I do agree with most of it. The Nightborne for example I'm fine with and can't complain against. Incoming rant:

However, yes - I am sick and tired of following a lore, thinking in the back of the head "So how long until this gets retcon'd?". Warcraft 1 is the first game memory I have - barely any of the lore from those days matter.

And let's not get started with Blizzard having said "We listen to feedback, but we need the community to trust the writers." You mean like when -WE- had to point out that in the latest novel, the night elves DID do something against the blood elves in the starting zones which the writer forgot?

Or how about when they actually gave Tyrande the title of -QUEEN- in 8.1 until we informed about it? There are just so many examples (The biggest, famous part being Red shirt guy so many years ago) where the players have been in need to tell Blizzard they are doing wrong.

And the Night Elves... oh god. I may be Horde - but I feel sad for them. We've always seen them lose, lose, lose - or sacrificing something to win. I haven't been able to think of a moment they had a real victory -WITHOUT- the aid of human potential. Which even then, if we look back at MoP... said Human potential made Tyrande look like trash.

Oh hey, one of the recent interviews! They said "You can join either Saurfang or Sylvanas. Then you will see if the choice you made is right or wrong." Yeah, if you pick the wrong one - you're just wrong. It doesn't matter if you follow your beliefs that this is the right path - you're just WRONG.

Overall, the story in BfA is just bad. This is not story telling - this is fan fiction. This is the first expansion I've told my friends "I wish I could stop caring about the lore." I'm not happy with it one bit. And the sad part is that I doubt they ever will hire proper writers that care for the story...


When they do stuff like that, it just makes me wonder if we are the only ones that are actually passionate about the lore.

Even as I say it, i know it cannot be true, they are, they must be, but then i ask the question why do they do some of the things they've done? and why don't they make a better effort of doing it in away that won't rubbish previous stuff or make it come across as inconsistent. Fine if you had to show khadgar in Legion, cos dalaran was there, but did you have to leave Tyrande and the order of Elune out of the Cathedral of Eternal night, when in Val'sharah zone after the whole "Malfurion my love, where are you" she then goes, "i love my husband, but my duty is to my goddess and her temples and lands first, then whisks off", however after that fine speech, she is awol in the broken shore, and in the Cathedral itself, including the lower section where we even meet her predecessor who's been corrupted - and she, high priestess is missing.

Worse, we find out that they had the entire zone planned around her - but scrapped it to make the leigon look more menacing, and involve the class order halls instead, and i'm like, okay, fair enough class orders involve all the players, but knowing how critical it is to her Orders story, surely a better strategy was to weave them into it, they could have had night elves of the many classes playing prominent roles in the order halls, or had the Order of Elune have a special crusade like branch for this like the zone you could add rep with and they were with every class on the broken shore co-ordinating their efforts, and we could have had room for Tyrande, illidan, Maiev, Velen and Khadgar.
Sometimes it really seems like, you have one group that does a great meticulous job at what they are hired for,

then someone senior comes in and goes, "nah, we have to have more legion stuff, make it more, instead of night elves lets ahve this" and because of their seniority, all that hard work gone, and no one would try and find a way to make both work, because it is important that Tyrande and the Order of Elune play a major role in their most significant temple, and there is great lore to bring out on a group that's been neglected for 14 years with incredible lore which most of it is still unseen yet even though they've been around that long because senior devs wanted to focus on Belves, draneei, arthas, dks, humans, orcs, thrall, thrall agian, orcs, dragons, shaman, thrall again, worgen, goblins, pandas, sha, orcs again, horde leadership troubles, thrall again, more orcs, draenei again, blood elves, humans, - and then they remembered..o h yeah, what about night elves? we still have them, we haven't done them for ages.

Alas, 2 patches and they were sick - lets get back to humans, blood elves, and something else. so 7.2 cut em out, and 7.3, then came pre-patch - and the genocide.
11/11/2018 00:15Posted by Frozenshadow
11/11/2018 00:08Posted by Northgrave
Really? Another nightborne QQ thread?


What do you mean? We haven't had one for ages and I am inching for another proper Nightborne thread so I can argue about it xd.


yeah, you know how much i had longed for and fantasised for the fabled coming together of the night elven arcane, nature and elune parts - how the struggle over the entire span of their 15k year lore had seemed like a cleverly orchestrated strategy that seemed to have shown that arcane focus without nature to balance was broken (pre-sundering era that led to arrogance and addiction) and would be doomed to destruction, nature without arcane backing it up would struggle and fade to corruption not having the power to fight it (long vigil era failure to be able to deal with the legion wihout its other half and again - typified in the nightmare corruption and how the arcane boosts the land.) - both eras ending in the sacrifice of the night elves magic - first the arcane which resulted in loss of civilizaton , then nature which resulted in the loss of the nature power that had immortality tied into it.

Now finally after 2 eras, both with incredible aspects to them, but both not being whole because each had ALL the elves focusing mainly on one aspect, now, both a past, a new era upon them, even the arcane groups who were in hiding have come out, how perfectly poised they are to rejoin with the nature group - making a balanced society - where arcane users can go to their extremes in arcane, but will have druids in the other part of society their reminding them and showing them balance, and vice versa, druids can go to the exterem in their nature love, but the arcane is there to back them up and empower them to fight some of the greater corruptions they encounter and also to boost them.

At long last perhaps now they could finally start a proper restoration of what they had lost, I never expected a new night elf global empire, the best scenario would be they would be a 15 zone strong nation (10 in Kalimdor, 4 or 5 in the broken isles, possibly 1 in northrend) at the very list they'd be a 3-4 zone community, likely the 3-4 in the broken isles or the ones in northwest kalimdor - possibly even 2 night elven factions, one of the broken isles and one of northern kalimdor.

Oh how that was all shattered, and hard by that, everything i found beautiful about how they had crafted the nightborne story, the fact it was in Suramar home to most of the daranssian heroes and the bulk of the army that marched and succeeded against Azshara, the fact that these nightborne were also learning the sort of humility via the same process the darnassians had gone through, turning them from the entiteld, arrogant and overconfident Azshara invasion-era night elves had been to the humbled, but wise, and extremely tough alert/elite mould of night elf the darnassians had had to become forged in the fires of the first war and honed in the long years of vigil.

the fit was so neat it was beautiful, having oundergone the balnacing and humbling process of withering and starvation, enslavemetn then getting free from the legion's grasp and defeating them instead of running hiding like the first time waiting for others to fight finally made them worthy to stand alongside the kaldorei as equals rather tahn as ones who they would have contempt with.

This is what it loked like, then legion ended, and bombshell allied race, nightborne, but not just that, nightborne with Thalyssara and Suramar - that night elf fans had been waiting for that pristine pre-sundering city, and not anyone, the one most of hteir heroes come from - especailly given that the horde could have gotten nightborne without the city or the rebels, was just like - yeah, spit on the night elf lore fans, deny them their restoration, then genocide them in shortly after. ..wtf?

Is this going somewhere good? or have i been vainly holding out hope for something the creators never intended to come good, but to be used as punching back to show how witty and sophisticated and conflicted Sylvanas and the horde are, and they'd just be cast aside with a token badass gesture.

And this is EXACTLY what the first iteration of the 8.1 warfront was - it was weak, it wasn't faltetering to night elves, the horde seemed stronger and more powerful and they showed no signs of being the night elves from the lore books or WC3, Tyrande is almost beaten by Nathanos - yeah, i was the fool. But at least they changed it - and now it is good it makes me wonder, is this because they aren't involving them in Azshara? when it should be both and so much more?

Am I the only one who cares? Why should I care if they don't care? Why should I allow myself to get so invested just to be mistreated and betrayed like this by those decisions and not get nothing to smile about or just the 1 minor warfront scene but cut out of the major event even when the antagonists is one of my fave race's arch villain.

I'm Contemplating Quitting Cos I Can't Take Any More Diasspointment
It appears I gave blizzard far too much credit.

It seems I clearly read much more into the story that wasn't there, - and that it was mere con-incidence they seemed to align so perfectly, because they seem to not be even aware of it - the big arcane night elf group isn't even with the night elves, and the main night elf group is on the brink of extinction - obviously no coming together, no regaining of power, no bright dawn (or great dusk (a dawn for nocturnal people), no building up or intention to restore them to anything or forge anything bright - just a desperate people existing for vengeance, with no hope - there to be "the loss and lows" the alliance experience, while humans and others reap the highs, and a token bone thrown their way so night elf fans don't mass quit too.
11/11/2018 00:55Posted by Kalibas
Am I the only one who cares? Why should I care if they don't care? Why should I allow myself to get so invested just to be mistreated and betrayed like this by those decisions and not get nothing to smile about or just the 1 minor warfront scene but cut out of the major event even when the antagonists is one of my fave race's arch villain.

No, but you certainly care more than most people do and more than most people should.
OK. I'm going to take the bait, as it were.

You are posting from a character known to have started a variety of threads about how hard done by the Kaldorei are, you claim to care about lore, however you consistently post on characters who are not on RP Realms, and this one even has the Guild name "Noobs with Epics"

I'm just going to ask you this. If you do not care about RP, and do not therefore indulge in the story of the game, its background and the why's and wherefores' of what happens, then -WHY- does this matter to you?

If you -cared- about those aspects of the game, you would play them. By not doing so, you are part of the problem, not the solution. If Blizzard thinks no one cares about lore, then we'll just end up with damned pixels mashing at each other with numbers over their heads. That's not what I want. I care about the lore, I care about the RP aspects of...gosh, an mmoRPg.

If you really cared, then...why are you doing nothing about it, or is it easier to complain?

All you do is complain.

Be the change you want to see, or else, get off the pot and go. Either is good.
11/11/2018 00:25Posted by Zakkaru
11/11/2018 00:12Posted by Turidas
And the Night Elves... oh god. I may be Horde - but I feel sad for them. We've always seen them lose, lose, lose - or sacrificing something to win. I haven't been able to think of a moment they had a real victory -WITHOUT- the aid of human potential. Which even then, if we look back at MoP... said Human potential made Tyrande look like trash.


Have you ever paid attention to how trolls were handled? Night elves aren't in half as !@#$ty situation.
Blizzard figured out how to raid the future allied race capital so Horde could participate too.
Another loss of iconic leader.

Or have a look on orcs.

I'm not saying that nelves aren't in bad situation. But they're not alone. Half of the Horde is in pitiful state and now turned to be Screeching queen's lackeys.

I agree that there are many issues with story, but there are still enjoyable bits, and for me it's Zandalari lore and some singular characters that I want to see more.

I am pretty sure nelves will recover for grim times they received extra goodies, like mount, eye customization, and warfront gear.

Trolls didn't receive any facepaint of tusk ornament for Vol'Jin's death. No, were left to be irrevelant for the rest of expansion.


Oh, I can absolutely see your point of view! The problem is that when it gets to trolls: Zandalar apparently 'sunk' during Cataclysm, but then came back. Whether they regret the choice or it never actually did sink - we don't know. And yes, we are getting a raid on their capital - but it'll be there afterwards.

Teldrassil? It's gone, you're not going back there unless you go back in time. Night Elves have been playable since Vanilla (Well, WC3 too) and they haven't done anything that can count as a "High point" - the closest is probably stopping Archmionde at the battle of mount hyjal, but of course, Human Potential was involved there. And they lost their immortality.

Overall - yeah, the Horde has it worse than the Alliance... but the Horde have had some victories. Night Elves, though...

Urgh, I hate Blizzard's writing team. Is there any reason Red Shirt guy didn't go work for them or did he realize there's no saving them all this time?
11/11/2018 01:00Posted by Taxania
11/11/2018 00:55Posted by Kalibas
Am I the only one who cares? Why should I care if they don't care? Why should I allow myself to get so invested just to be mistreated and betrayed like this by those decisions and not get nothing to smile about or just the 1 minor warfront scene but cut out of the major event even when the antagonists is one of my fave race's arch villain.

No, but you certainly care more than most people do and more than most people should.


I know right - it is the the more than most people should. I'm a bit trapped, can't work for blizzard, and then feeling this perhaps is not quite what i should be throwing my life passion into.

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