Why I feel like Quitting the Lore For Good.

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14/11/2018 18:17Posted by Sylvianna
Now, if Thalyssra opened secret meeting with Anduin, though...that could work for the Nightborne joining the Alliance. That's the reason I'm wary about it...


Except Thalyssra aided in the coup to break Talanji and Zul out of prison and essentially is partly responsible for Stormwind going up in flames. I take it the obvious blood elf bias clouds your vision as usual.

How about your learn some lore and not try and make everything all "boohoo about blood elves" and "those nasty horrible nightborne."

EDIT: Seriously, people don't understand the Nightborne what-so-ever. I'm sure Sylvianna and Kelibas are under the illusion that Nightborne see the world as Night Elves do. They don't. They never will. They are their own people with very different mindsets.
The Nightborne, as Thalyssra puts it, admires strength, determination and individuality...traits that she sees in the Horde. Why do Horde people try and make the Nightborne look bad? Valtrois observing the situation...yeah, that's simply observing. She's not stated that Sylvanas is wrong and the Nightborne have chosen wrong. It's simple observation which Rexxar agrees with.

Thalyssra isn't holding secret talks with Anduin either and I suspect Thalyssra will be the main Horde character during the Nazjatar patch as she is the only Horde character that truly makes sense to actually be there, considering her hatred towards Azshara.
14/11/2018 18:17Posted by Sylvianna
14/11/2018 18:13Posted by Tánariá
Where were the Blood Elves for that.


Blood Elves have to preserve their people and nation over ANYTHING else. They weren't present at the battle for Lordaeron either. In fact it's usually the Alliance who attacks the Blood Elves anyway, like in Vol'dun, despite they should focus on Orcs or Forsaken.

14/11/2018 18:13Posted by Tánariá
I haven't seen Thalyssra hold secret meetings with Tyrande of recent and her actions in Stormwind means that there is no going back for the Nightborne.


Because Tyrande is a bad angry ambassador (despite her power...she doesn't understand the condition of other people, other than Night Elves) so that would fail anyway. Now, if Thalyssra opened secret meeting with Anduin, though...that could work for the Nightborne joining the Alliance. That's the reason I'm wary about it...


This just can never happen for lore reasons (them and the blood elves are tight af for example) and obviously gameplay reasons. You don’t need to worry.
14/11/2018 18:20Posted by Tánariá
Except Thalyssra aided in the coup to break Talanji and Zul out of prison and essentially is partly responsible for Stormwind going up in flames. I take it the obvious blood elf bias clouds your vision as usual.

How about your learn some lore and not try and make everything all "boohoo about blood elves" and "those nasty horrible nightborne."


Zul is the only one responsible for the fires. And Anduin would forgive Thalyssra anyway, just because she killed some random Alliance guards, that's no big deal, they are just some Alliance schmucks.

I mean, Blood Elves killed plenty of Alliance members too, and it's because of them that the Horde could drop the mana-bomb on Theramore, inflicting massive losses. And Varian still was going to forgive them and allow them into the Alliance. So what Thalyssra did is nothing in comparison to years of hostilities between Silvermoon and Stormwind.
14/11/2018 18:25Posted by Sylvianna
So what Thalyssra did is nothing in comparison to years of hostilities between Silvermoon and Stormwind.


It doesn't matter. Jaina saw Thalyssra and she's well respected in Stormwind. Jaina would know of Suramar's involvement and that's all that's needed.

Suramar was involved with breaking Zul and Talanji out. That instantly makes them enemies of the Alliance.

And Anduin would forget Thalyssra anyway


Well duh...Anduin wasn't there.

Jaina and Genn were there and they would know of Suramar's involvement through the Nightborne leader.

Thalyssra joining in the break out has only clarified the Nightborne's loyalty to the Horde. There is no going back. Suramar stands with the Horde, and the moment it doesn't is when Silvermoon no longer stands with the Horde.

If the Silvermoon/Eversong Warfront ever came to be, you can be damned sure that Suramar would send immediate aid, because that just shows how much respect the Nightborne give their allies.
14/11/2018 18:08Posted by Tánariá
Kelibas dear - are you quitting the lore because I no longer keep your posts alive with my "Highborne as a whole" lore knowledge to keep you invested?

I'm sure our dear Sylvianna would love to see the stuff you've posted on the General forums these past 2 months, regarding Nightborne and Night Elves and how Nightborne and Blood Elves shouldn't be true allies and how Night Elves should be better at arcane magic than Blood Elves and that Azshara (the zone) was blood elves mocking night elf apprentices, when we already see Lorekeeper Amberwind, a Highborne, in charge of said apps.

EDIT: Also because I've put my account on hold as well, so after December, I wouldn't be able to keep your posts alive.


Absolutely, the darnassians should have the best of all the various aspects of the night elves throughout their history. They should be the banner carriers for the race because they are the main player group. It sucks to see better night elves neutral or in the horde - whether at the arcane, nature or the priesthood.

I don't like it one bit, and it is part of the crap alliance night elf treatment many of us.

As for nightborne, as you well know my feelings on this, it felt like night elf alliance fans were spat on by that move, especially considering the lore value Suramar has particularly to the darnassian group and the desire amongst night elf fans like myself to see a night elf civilization city pristinely restored, and the desire to see night elves at the level of power and expertise the lore boasts of on their side. While they are still night elves but on the horde, the fact that they aren't with the kaldorei but with their enemies feels like a huge a slap in the face of "i don't really care about you guys - you're just there to provide cool things for my favourite horde faction and I am turning all the cool things about you over to everyone else but you - Legion make it only draenei thing, night elf arcana - horde thing now cut the kaldorei out of it, demon hunting - only good if they're blood elves in it, lets make the priest identity in the alliance mainly relevant draenei thing instead (rather than be okay about developing both, they just forgot about the night elven priest aspect and only showed and developed draenei priesthood, leaving night elf priesthood to be only about sentinels and huntresses, only feral (and crap feral at that) cutting out the magical and religious portions) then went - lets experiment with Elune as a naaru (draenei thing) or a loa (troll thing), lets recast night elves to come from trolls, originally the first to both learn and master magic - lets remove that also, give it to the trolls, immortality - draenei and forsaken, objects of power - let the dranei and blood elves have that too (just forget night elves were all about the Well of Eternity and World tree, but ignored, its okay for blood elves to have Sunwell and the light, or Draenei Atamal crystals and the naaru/light) - what can a bunch of females do anyway?", they know how they've written the story and had the darnassian group lose everything, sacrifice of nature and arcane through the 2 legion invasions and the long vigil - the hope of getting some cool things across the board for their group seemed dashed by that move.

And you know I feel it was completely un-necessary for the horde to get all the nightborne and the city or broken isles - should have been an exiled group just like the blood elves were exiled with the infrastructure, city, lands , forests and isles all going to the playable night elf group.

As it stands, it is probably safe to assume that broken isles is on the side of the horde, as the Thalyssra had befriended both the val'sharah refugees and Moonguard, and although not seen, would have been working wtih the Azsuna ghost.

The alliance night elves should get the best the night elven race has to offer on nature, on the arcane, on their priesthood, it should not be with neutrals or hordies. I don't mind horde night elves being on par in some areas, that is fine, like void elves are on par with blood elves in the areas they both match, but blood elves having the wider range because they are the banner holders.

It is done. I think it was unfair of blizzard and was another highlighting of their willingness to throw night elves under the bus - give the best display of their arcane mastery to the horde (i said display) - because in theory, the shen'dralar should be on par with the nightborne. And no, you don't judge the value of the shen'dralar based on the novices you humiliate in Azshara zone - even with Lorekeeper Amberwind who we don't know is shen'dralar, and is the first to be executed before the novices and their operations ah co-opted.

Cataclysm was the worse portrayal of night elves in all of warcraft history - it wasn't just arcane novices, but sentinels, huntresses were made to look weak, night elves were bombed, decimated, their magics hijacked by blood elves easily, they looked like idiots across the board. Remember the horde on a kodo that 1 shots 5 night elf ambushers, they are made to fall over like fodder in their own forests.

The actual shen'dralar we see not partake in any action, 2 are discussing things in stonealon windshear crag, send you to some ruins to get some artifacts from a re-surfaced ruined town, but never join the fighting. There are some mage npcs in the battle in stonetalon mountain, but it is undeteremined if they a highborne, you can't really fight them, you don't interact with them, they are randomly placed units, you don't interact with that conflict save to grab a vehicle.

In Hyjal, the druids you meet are all driven away by Firelands (no surprise their partly) but again they don't seem particularly strong, but that is not all night elven there, there are tauren tehre too. Still we know the wild gods are a night elf thing, they get returned to life and are absoltuely useless, - i mean nothing like how we see the Loa in action in 8.0 , only Goldrinn seems to do something meaningful, but they might not as well exists.

In darkshore, we don't see the priestesess of the moon do anything incredible, none of that Elune star and moon magic calling we witness in WC3, the sentinels do take on the shatterspear - but yay, the night elves are able to beat a bunch of villagers with an army of 10k year old seasoned veterans - feels like such an achievement. But when the big bad horde army comes into Ashenvale, the sentinels are damsels in distress being picked off by the mean bad horde, waiting for the hero to come save them and give them respite.

ACross the booard, the Darnassians look awful in that, and if you are taking that as a representation of how night elves are in lore - whether arcane, nature or divine, sentinel or huntress - then you don't understand night elf lore.

I have been waiting for them to pull night elves together after they gave them a 15k year history two significant eras, and a new dawn in wow, that i was hoping to see the best of all their eras coalesce and occur - because you now have night elves across several disciplines around that have the best of the knowledge of their race in all the areas they are wrtiten to be great in - in the arcane (via the highborne/moonguard and nightborne) in nature (via the 3 druid orders), in the divine incl martial (via the Order of Elune also encompassing its Sentinels, huntresses and wardens) and in the fel.

And yet what do blizzard do? either neglect them, ignore them, leave them neutral, or take them over to the horde.

yeah thanks blizzard. Seems like as long as we are not horde, we don't seem to get the good stuff.. that is until 8.1

Now 8.1 is looking remarkably different, a lot of firsts. First time the Darnassian, and i repeat DARNASSIAN group look freaking dangerous, first time Tyrande looks freaking powerful and first tieme she actually does something - and as a high priestess rather than a sentinel.

not convinced? May i remind Tyrande is Awol in the whole of wow up till MoP - she has 2 cameo apperances, does nothign but make a fool of herself, that Varian has to step in and show her how its done.. I mean cheers blizz - (i don't have to remind you of Tyrande's lore like i did the shen'dralar do I?), then next time she actually has proper screen time is in legion - but players still don't know what is specail about this chick, because she just rides her saber, prays to Elune and calls out to her beloved - only those who have read her in the novels and know at least in the books and previous game she isn't useless (or isn't supposed to be) perhaps came away from that not thinking she was a rubbish leader. Meanwhile how overpowered have Sylvanas and Jaina been shown in game? Next is in 7.1 - where really it shoudl have been Vereesa doing what Tyrande was doing for alliance WQ and posting notices the alliance is here. I mean the alliance>? Your are high priestess of the Goddess of all night elf kind, back in your home city with your most holy temple across the span, your kin are suffering under oppression, and you have an enemy you hate in the streets as well as people needing to be saved, and you just do nothing. And when the armies go forrrward, Tyrande is using her fists.. her freaking FISTS

AFter i wrote several messages to blizz about that, in the ptr, and it went live, it was corrected in an update to have at least a bow.. a freaking bow?

Wanna go on to the broken shore 7.2? Where no night elf is seen. No ngiht elf/nightborne - all gone from the area, all the other night elven groups have got a good showing in 7.0 - except the preisthood of Elune - where 7.1 shoudl have had her own unique quest, and 7.2 continued that story because this is where the main temple is.. she is ABSENT agian.

WE find out they did write the entire zone around her, but they felt it wasn't scary enough and didn't have enough of the legion, so scrapped her role compeltely, felt class halls should be what its about - talk about lore in consistencies - knowing how much the area and zone, temple meant to the Order of Elune - why not have done both? why not woven the Order or a branch of the order, like a special crusade of the Order to work with the Class order halls, lead them.

Yet all we see is MAiev chasing Illidan in CoEN, and Illidan commenting in ToS - despite all the night elf lore and art, and encounters there.

And you think i am completely unbalanced and wrong for being upset and unhappy about this treatment and how they've handled night elves ? Even in legion where had a good start, but half way through, night elves were cut out, back to blood elves, humans (Turalayon and Alleria ), it must have felt nice that Turalyon instead of an actual Dranei was the main focus of the Army of the Light for Draenei fans. (i was being sarcastic), Don't get me wrong, i like that there were class order action in 7.2 and Turalyon showed up again - but coudln't they have had another significant draenei alongside him on Argus, apart from Velen? Couldn't we have had the sister hood of Elune throughout the broken shore and the tomb?

It's a big detail to forget.

And when the legion was defeated? NOthing about the night elves - absolutely nothing, the defeat of the legion adn the curing of arcane addiction, if you read night elf lore are the 2 biggest issues affecting the night elves. 10,000 years of isolation , whether in the Long vigil forest living without civilziaiton or in the pre-sudnering cities of Eldre'thalas and Suramar happen this way because of them. tHe long vigil group does not rrebuild civilziation, refuses to use its arcane magic just to prevent this foe from coming back. Sacfiricing both arcane and nature magic with the loss of the power expended willingly to stop archimonde in round 2 invasion - their lives entirely centred around guarding their well, suppressing the use of the magic they were most talented at and borne from all because of the legion. the reason the night elves don't rebuild in 10k years is because of the legion, it's not life as normal. Long vigil night elven life that you seem to think defines the night elves, doesnt'. The long vigil is alert state, all because of the legion.

And arcane addiction, the one thing that compromised the impeccable nobility, was actually cured and understood that arcane wielding needs nature to balance it out, arcane boosts nature too, they finally prove in the story that arcane and nature hand in hand is what does it for the night elves. An all arcane focused society is prone to error, without an order of nature users counterbalancing and balance practiced, and a nature only society too is not strong enough and prone to corruption from factors like the emerald nightmare, and fel corruption, without the arcane energies of the well boosting the land, many of the nature restoration and proliferation /enhacnement would not be possible, imagine now what is achieveable with the arcane useable for spells and not going crazy like it did beofre.

The end of the legion and its effects on teh night elves are totally ignored. As if it didn't really affect them. Like it isn't the destiny altering thing for them. Destiny, what was the night elves' mandate before the legion? ever thought about that? Ever thought why they call themselves Children of the Stars and not children of theh tree, leaf or forest ? Or what their purpose was before the legion? No, because you know their purpose when the legion was around was to stop it from coming back to Azeroth (hence the ban on arcane magic and only nature magic use) but once they returned the purpose was to destroy it (hence lifting of the ban) - the entire long vigil was because of the legion. What now that it is destroyed? their originaly star ward looking, life enhancing, world building, world enhancing mandate should kick in, especially now the hubris and arrogance has been cured by a good dose of humble pie (the legion's destructive invasion, the withering, driven out of dire maul, Azshara's curse - are the activities that gave the humble pie)

We shoudl be seen the best era the night elves have had, where arcane user, nature use, divine worshiper, all of them are on board, all on the same page as far as humility, balance, responsible use of any form of power, wisdom, expertise and knowledge, the only ones to have lived through it all and seen the world a far better place than it is.. surely that would be their new mandate -

Do blizzard visit any of this?> No its as if the leigon is no longer a night elf thing, - its just a dranei thing, because the draenei are Eredar, therefore all the night elf lore means nothing to night elves - I'm not even going to talk about orcs, yes, i am fully aware they didn't visit that either, but i'd leave that for orc fans to bring up (if they care). FOr night elves the legion has been central, at least orcs weren't aware it was the legion pulling hteir strings till Wc3, and have largely been about fighting the alliance.

This is why as much as i am wanting the night elves to actually be written good against the horde for WoT event, I am more concerned with the after. Azshara is the reason this happened, wittingly or unwittingly, she is the reason the legion is invited in, whether it was her addiction or hubris , the Queen let this happen, and even after her defeat, the naga are written through most of wow to be attacking night elf lands and night elf settlements. Understandbly too, if the night elves are again cut out of dealing with her like they were out of the end of the Legion, I don't care how amazing 8.1 is, again, it would be a massive let down and break in continuity - especailly if they make Zandalari and Kul'tirans, dark irons and mag'har orcs - Sylvanas, Jaina, Anduin and Saurfang the stars of that show - it would reinforce that 8.1 was a token and not the new norm for night elves.

So yeah, i'm pissed, and whatever you may think I think, well, I've written it all out AGAIN for you.

I hope this time you read all of it, rather than skim it and then pick on the bits you don't like.
14/11/2018 19:17Posted by Kalibas
would have been working wtih the Azsuna ghost.


No that never happened.

The Nar'thalas Highborne spirits are bound to Azsuna.
The only involvement Thalyssra's rebellion had with Azsuna was with the Blue Dragonflight with Valtrois.

The end of the legion and its effects on the night elves are totally ignored.


Well, the thing is - Legion was never going to be an expansion where the pages of the WoTA are brought to life. Back then, it was mainly Night Elves vs Demons, but in Legion, Blizzard had to focus on many things that were associated with the Legion as well.

The actual main concern that I saw was Draenei involvement in early Legion, because we had the business with the Exodar, but then nothing after.

We all knew Elves would be involved at some major points, but we also had to factor in many things, like the Draenei as well as Turaylon and Alleria.

14/11/2018 19:17Posted by Kalibas
back to blood elves, humans (Turalayon and Alleria )


Well, this is where Blizzard were going with that extra "TBC redone" feel. Like I said, the expansion itself was never going to be centered just around Night Elves and Nightborne as you can't make an expansion from that. It lasts for a patch, maybe two, but afterwards - a different vibe is needed. If every patch in Legion was just about Night Elves, the expansion would have been very stale and uninteresting.

The Blood Elves have lore with the Legion due to the Sunblade's actions on Quel'Danas. To be perfectly honest though, I would have preferred a mix of Orc and Blood Elf lore on Argus, as far as Horde races go.

14/11/2018 19:17Posted by Kalibas
I hope this time you read all of it, rather than skim it and then pick on the bits you don't like.


Unfortunately, reading all of that takes too much time and I'd fall asleep.

It's only 7:30pm where I am and I can't go to bed that early.

14/11/2018 19:17Posted by Kalibas
FOr night elves the legion has been central


As it was for the Draenei.

The Draenei NPC's even state "The Legion will fall."
I'd say the Draenei lore in Legion was incredibly needed, more so than the Elf lore in some places.
No that never happened.

The Nar'thalas Highborne spirits are bound to Azsuna.
The only involvement Thalyssra's rebellion had with Azsuna was with the Blue Dragonflight with Valtrois.

Do you just skip context or don't read it? I said it is likely that this is the case now... not that it has happened.

Well, the thing is - Legion was never going to be an expansion where the pages of the WoTA are brought to life. Back then, it was mainly Night Elves vs Demons, but in Legion, Blizzard had to focus on many things that were associated with the Legion as well.

The actual main concern that I saw was Draenei involvement in early Legion, because we had the business with the Exodar, but then nothing after.

We all knew Elves would be involved at some major points, but we also had to factor in many things, like the Draenei as well as Turaylon and Alleria.

Also forgot that part that i wasn't begrudging what they did do, but what they didn't do.

THe legion has been part of the night elves since their great civilization - it was the cataclysmic event that destroyed them and set everything every of their groups has been about. The legion was what the night elves in WC3 were all about. The long vigil, the hiding behind teh shiield in Suramar, the seclusion in Eldre'thalas - all of this is entirely because and oas a result of the legion. The night elf group most concerned and dedicated to opposing it and living their lives solely to prevent it from returning - the darnassian group.

That they , and their culture form the basis of the zone for the expansion, but they are not involved with the final push being the group most affected, most about it - is astounding, wtf does it have to do with the WotA being replayed. The point of this is night elves aren't handled well in the second half of legion proverbially thrown under the bus it appeared just like they had been for all the expansions before that, returnign back to not playing a role despite being hte most important thing for them.

it highlights the main problem with night elves in wow - they are no longer about the big things because blizzard tossing them aside, even the legion is not about them anymore - their role was basically Malfurion in the emerald nightmare this is exactly the thing i hate most about what the lore has done. The just kept on relegating the playable night elves, all the good things about their lore and what they about, recast, shipped to the opposite faction or other races, cut out of main events, even events that their lore centres them around.

Why do you think i'm so freaking concerned they're going to cut them out of Azshara. If they would do that against the Legion --- given how significant it was to them, as if only Illidan had beef with them. Sure Illidan shoudl have had the largest night elf role there, but only him? WTF? as if the night elves don't exist, and the legion is more for the important races.

Well, this is where Blizzard were going with that extra "TBC redone" feel. Like I said, the expansion itself was never going to be centered just around Night Elves and Nightborne as you can't make an expansion from that. It lasts for a patch, maybe two, but afterwards - a different vibe is needed. If every patch in Legion was just about Night Elves, the expansion would have been very stale and uninteresting.

The Blood Elves have lore with the Legion due to the Sunblade's actions on Quel'Danas. To be perfectly honest though, I would have preferred a mix of Orc and Blood Elf lore on Argus, as far as Horde races go.

True (hey look, i'm agreeing with you? perhaps you can try that on the things i say that you also agree with - oh wait, you're not known for humility or comraderie, it's just a fight with you)

But yes I agree with you here, but also note that my beef is not with what they showed, but what they didn't show. Sure legion was not all about night elves, it felt epic to have everyone involved, but given the significance of it to the night elves, it felt a slap to leave them out of the broken shore and Argus.

i always expected the Draenei to have the main show for Argus, always, but i expected night elves to be there in force alongside them. For the horde, yes, blood elves and orcs. Orcs omission is also unsettling - i know they were probably cooling down on orcs, but the problem we had was not with orcs as much as it was with the constant focus and forcing of orcs from TBC to WoD - TBC, I understood, made sense to have a lot of orc lore, frankly i epected more than we had. WOtLK however? DId they have to make the orcs the main horde force? Sure i expected them to have a part, but it shoudl ahve been minor compared to the forsaken and Blood elves - i was very annoyed with that, it felt like pushing orcs down on us, it was then i started resenting orcs. From that point.

CAtaclysm didn't slow down, it made it worse, now orcs were shown as ridciuloulsly over powered to elves, whom they shoudl have been at the very least very wary of, especially night elves who seemed more than a match for them 1 on 1 in WC3 and the lore portrayal, but all of a sudden, orcs again super menacing and powerful - but it's that the night elves were written to be so crap just to make them look good. really cheesed me of. And then god mode Thrall, him being an orc after all the other stuff, got me irritated, first time Malfurion returns, and hey, over Nordrassil, it is Thrall that has the centre stage, in late WotLK, it seemed that the night elves were going to be the main race of the catalcysm - originally in the information they had shared, the factions learn about deathwing beacuse the Shen'dralar have been scrying and discovered the plot, Queen Azshara also approaches them and tries to entice them to join her, they refuse, and this news is so big they seek the night elves out also forming an agreement. This was in the original cata reveals and stuff they came out with, but it got changed. Rather than night elves leading this fight, it switched to Shaman and the Earthern ring, which made sense ofc (i agreed with that) and this called for Thrall over Malfurion even though he has just returned. Fair enough, but it still irritated me how little the night elves had to do with everything. Ofc it was Varian golden boy's time to shine too, with his Logosh - wolf thing even though the worgen were grossly second class to the goblins. but hey.

I had no qualms with how MoP went down, even though it was Garrosh becoming the main antagonist, it felt a bit like they threw him under the bus becuase people didn't seem to like him, but orcs were less overbearing here, SoO was a good raid, Isle of Thunder good elven lore. Only downside was silly they made Tyrande look infront of Varian.

However WoD, there we go again, got sick of orcs, but after the nice change of spikes for 2-3 patches, i woudl have been quite happy to see orcs again for the final push.
14/11/2018 17:46Posted by Sylvianna
Hmm..but in the cinematic about the "Terror of Darkshore" we see a Blood Knight walking alongside Horde forces at night and she's wearing the usual bright colours of Quel'thalas like red, orange and gold


True that, but they are also part of a supply column with a Kodo, I doubt Stealth was their plan.... Also, just saying, she was brightly lit, and the first to die...There's a lesson there...Apart from 'don't pi$$ off the Kaldorei in their own forests'

14/11/2018 17:46Posted by Sylvianna
so be careful with all that black or people will indeed confuse you with a Forsaken male dark ranger and the Alliance could show you no mercy exactly because of that :P


Well, hopefully the fact he has green eyes, and is still breathing would disabuse them of that idea, but frankly, it doesn't matter, whilst we have an honourable accord with our aerial enemies the Knights Gryphon, and the War in the Sky is currently still being fought with honour and decency, I know of several Alliance commanders on the ground who have clubbed together and put a healthy bounty out for 'proof of death' on Sun Hawks, I think it is 10 Gold per Sun Hawk, 25 gold if they are a known 'Ace' and 50 Gold for 'The Red Death' himself... Frankly I would have a better chance if they thought I -was- a Dark Ranger... And this is our repayment for being one of the only Horde units on AD who actually accepts surrenders and treats prisoners decently!

14/11/2018 17:46Posted by Sylvianna
although black is indeed a color for Blood Elves too. More on the Blood Knight side rather than Farstriders though.


True, as I say, it was more for the 'being stealthy' aspect, our normal gear is proud resplendent reds and golds, as it should be.

14/11/2018 18:17Posted by Kalibas
Omg, QFT... people are so guilty of skimming.


I think it is a generational thing. -NO- that is not a 'dig' at 'Millennials' or any such nonsense but just a difference in how people have learned to process information. I mean if you had asked me what TL:DR meant ten years ago I could not have told you. I still find it annoying now.

14/11/2018 18:17Posted by Kalibas
How many people honestly, like honestly read every word I type?(i write a lot), on some of the topics i've had big arguments on, just judging by the responses of the criticisers, i could tell they hadn't read everything i said.. not all, but nearly all.


I am generally the same, it is a flaw that I know I possess, both in text based communication, and indeed, in person, in verbal communication, one of my friends summed it up best "You'll never use one word, where ten will do, will you?"

It is unfortunate, because sometimes the nuances of what you are getting at are lost when people just skim a post, and of course, text based communication is absolutely -awful- for getting across meaning. People generally make the assumptions that if you are writing a lot of words, you are angry, or being aggressive, which may be entirely the opposite to what you actually mean. I mean just about every post I make is with a kind of jocular mood, or sardonic mockery at worst. Telephones are almost as bad, but at least there you can hear pitch and tone of voice. We forget how much of human communication is still reliant on the very same things that animals use, posture and facial expression. It is actually why telephone based customer service work is so hard, you are having to make up for the fact that your main expressor is actually missing.

The problem is further compounded by the fact that we have now gotten to a stage where even 'emoji's' don't cut it anymore, because they are often used in a sarcastic or mocking way that is the opposite of the actual expression that the emoji is displaying, which then means we have to use more words to explain what we actually mean, which then means that people misconstrue this as 'U mad bro!' (I felt dirty even typing that)

I mean, perhaps a web stream is a better method of communication, I suppose, as then you have all three signifiers in place, the actual words, the pitch and tone, and also facial expression.

This is possibly why some businesses are moving towards that model, rather than simple 'conference calls'.

Anyway, I digress...See what I mean about using one word where ten will do!
14/11/2018 20:09Posted by Kalibas
i always expected the Draenei to have the main show for Argus, always, but i expected night elves to be there in force alongside them.


Well I never expected that to happen and that was mainly due to Turaylon and Alleria. Tyrande and Malfurion had nothing truly in common or had any close relation to Turaylon and Alleria at that time.
We did see the Illidari, both Kaldorei and Sin'dorei, fight alongside Illdan in some places around Argus, but the main core to Argus was that which surrounded Turaylon, Alleria and Velen.

I fully expected to see Vereesa and Arator as the Alliance representatives. To be honest, the Alliance side to Argus, I was expecting to see more in the way of Humans, High Elves and Draenei, just because the overall feel, and the lore tied to that place felt fitting.

14/11/2018 20:22Posted by Kalibas
I said it is likely that this is the case now...


It can't have.

The Highborne Spirits are still trapped to their island.
No that never happened.

The Nar'thalas Highborne spirits are bound to Azsuna.
The only involvement Thalyssra's rebellion had with Azsuna was with the Blue Dragonflight with Valtrois.

Do you just skip context or don't read it? I said it is likely that this is the case now... not that it has happened.

Well, the thing is - Legion was never going to be an expansion where the pages of the WoTA are brought to life. Back then, it was mainly Night Elves vs Demons, but in Legion, Blizzard had to focus on many things that were associated with the Legion as well.

The actual main concern that I saw was Draenei involvement in early Legion, because we had the business with the Exodar, but then nothing after.

We all knew Elves would be involved at some major points, but we also had to factor in many things, like the Draenei as well as Turaylon and Alleria.

Also did you forget the part where i wrote that i wasn't begrudging what blizzard did do, but what they didn't do.

THe legion has been part of the night elves since their great civilization - it was the cataclysmic event that destroyed them and set everything every of their groups has been about. The legion was what the night elves in WC3 were all about. The long vigil, the hiding behind teh shiield in Suramar, the seclusion in Eldre'thalas - all of this is entirely because and oas a result of the legion. The night elf group most concerned and dedicated to opposing it and living their lives solely to prevent it from returning - the darnassian group.

That they , and their culture form the basis of the zone for the expansion, but they are not involved with the final push being the group most affected, most about it - is astounding, wtf does it have to do with the WotA being replayed. The point of this is night elves aren't handled well in the second half of legion proverbially thrown under the bus it appeared just like they had been for all the expansions before that, returnign back to not playing a role despite being hte most important thing for them.

it highlights the main problem with the playable night elves in wow - they are no longer about the big things because blizzard tossing them aside, even the legion is not about them anymore - and the player group should be the banner holder, the iconic representation of the best aspects of everything the race has to offer, tis the one the players are most invested in. This is exactly the thing i hate most about what the lore has done. The y just kept on relegating the playable night elves, all the good things about their lore and what they about, recast, shipped to the opposite faction or other races, cut out of main events, even events that their lore centres them around. If its too big to be in one faction, then it was a good decision to have them in 2 factions, (better would have them as their own faction) but worse is to cut the original player group out of all the best parts of their race, they've been the ones looking forward to and appreciating the whole race all this time, it's really a dick move to do that to them. A real dick move to have the enemy faction night elves outshine the main one, have cooler stuff and be better.

Why do you think i'm so freaking concerned they're going to cut them out of Azshara. If they would do that against the Legion --- given how significant it was to them, as if only Illidan had beef with them. Sure Illidan shoudl have had the largest night elf role there, but only him? WTF? as if the night elves don't exist, and the legion is more for the important races.

Well, this is where Blizzard were going with that extra "TBC redone" feel. Like I said, the expansion itself was never going to be centered just around Night Elves and Nightborne as you can't make an expansion from that. It lasts for a patch, maybe two, but afterwards - a different vibe is needed. If every patch in Legion was just about Night Elves, the expansion would have been very stale and uninteresting.

The Blood Elves have lore with the Legion due to the Sunblade's actions on Quel'Danas. To be perfectly honest though, I would have preferred a mix of Orc and Blood Elf lore on Argus, as far as Horde races go.

True (hey look, i'm agreeing with you? perhaps you can try that on the things i say that you also agree with - oh wait, you're not known for humility or comraderie, it's just a fight with you)

But yes I agree with you here, but also note that my beef is not with what they showed, but what they didn't show. Sure legion was not all about night elves, it felt epic to have everyone involved, but given the significance of it to the night elves, it felt a slap to leave them out of the broken shore and Argus.

i always expected the Draenei to have the main show for Argus, always, but i expected night elves to be there in force alongside them. For the horde, yes, blood elves and orcs. Orcs omission is also unsettling - i know they were probably cooling down on orcs, but the problem we had was not with orcs as much as it was with the constant focus and forcing of orcs from TBC to WoD - TBC, I understood, made sense to have a lot of orc lore, frankly i epected more than we had. WOtLK however? DId they have to make the orcs the main horde force? Sure i expected them to have a part, but it shoudl ahve been minor compared to the forsaken and Blood elves - i was very annoyed with that, it felt like pushing orcs down on us, it was then i started resenting orcs. From that point.

CAtaclysm didn't slow down, it made it worse, now orcs were shown as ridciuloulsly over powered to elves, whom they shoudl have been at the very least very wary of, especially night elves who seemed more than a match for them 1 on 1 in WC3 and the lore portrayal, but all of a sudden, orcs again super menacing and powerful - but it's that the night elves were written to be so crap just to make them look good. really cheesed me of. And then god mode Thrall, him being an orc after all the other stuff, got me irritated, first time Malfurion returns, and hey, over Nordrassil, it is Thrall that has the centre stage, in late WotLK, it seemed that the night elves were going to be the main race of the catalcysm - originally in the information they had shared, the factions learn about deathwing beacuse the Shen'dralar have been scrying and discovered the plot, Queen Azshara also approaches them and tries to entice them to join her, they refuse, and this news is so big they seek the night elves out also forming an agreement. This was in the original cata reveals and stuff they came out with, but it got changed. Rather than night elves leading this fight, it switched to Shaman and the Earthern ring, which made sense ofc (i agreed with that) and this called for Thrall over Malfurion even though he has just returned. Fair enough, but it still irritated me how little the night elves had to do with everything. Ofc it was Varian golden boy's time to shine too, with his Logosh - wolf thing even though the worgen were grossly second class to the goblins. but hey.

I had no qualms with how MoP went down, even though it was Garrosh becoming the main antagonist, it felt a bit like they threw him under the bus becuase people didn't seem to like him, but orcs were less overbearing here, SoO was a good raid, Isle of Thunder good elven lore. Only downside was silly they made Tyrande look infront of Varian.

However WoD, there we go again, got sick of orcs, but after the nice change of spikes for 2-3 patches, i woudl have been quite happy to see orcs again for the final push.

14/11/2018 19:31Posted by Tánariá
As it was for the Draenei.

The Draenei NPC's even state "The Legion will fall."
I'd say the Draenei lore in Legion was incredibly needed, more so than the Elf lore in some places.
Yes, again, not be-gruding the draenei, but it was central to night elves too, and who got cut out of the final push? Not draenei, but night elves. There weren't even night elven armies gathered with the draenei in the exodar.

Night elves no longer about main world events, just wood elves, not bothered if the tree is not involved, a marked downgrade, feel cheated overall. And exactly the problem with the playable race, cut out of most of their own cool stuff, stuff they've been the centre off.

It's like cutting humans out of the fight againt the orcs or against Arthas the lich king, removing their involvement with dalaran and world affairs, and making them only bothered when the defias brotherhood comes out in their lands. how exiciting that is for people who fell in love with the race.

you see because they haven't done that, and humans still play a major influential role in all the main activities and events, the fact that they've had great losses like the kingdom of Lordaeron, Gilneas, Kul'tiras, Alterac etc, is liveable with by what they've gained, how they're portrayed, and their involvement. They now span the world, human basis in EK, Kalimdor and Northrend, it is humans that build the garrison in WoD, humans involved in all the major events too that have happened, and humans are not rolled over all the time, they often fitght back , and seem to be the only one written to stand against the horde, and also sometimes win things back. They've had some pretty low downs, but some great ups. Stormwind was destroyed in WC1, but look at it now.

Wish i could say the same for the ngiht elf civilziation before the legion, or the ruins in the broken isles and kalidmor, or the corruption in Val'sharah, or the well of eternity, or the fight of the legion, cut out of so much stuff, power exported, lore and cool aspects given to others.

It's like when it comes to the alliance night elves? it's like blizzard go limp and throw them the scraps.. there, that's for you, but when they're neutral -- oh they're amazing, so amazing they give all the cool stuff to the horde too. here you just need some nightborne, have ALL of them, and ofc the really cool night elf city too, have it, let the best we've shown the arcane side of the ngiht elves be with their enemies too. Hey Draenei - legion's all yours, so is priestly stuff, .. meh, i've already written this reply earlier, just read it.
14/11/2018 20:20Posted by Brigante
I am generally the same, it is a flaw that I know I possess, both in text based communication, and indeed, in person, in verbal communication, one of my friends summed it up best "You'll never use one word, where ten will do, will you?"

Yeh, that is so me too, it's a flaw for this medium, I am trying so hard to cut down, but then i get so passionate and i have to write loads.

I discovered that this was especially bad when I was into something. I just have to explain everything, think about every detail, nuance, and then write it too, and then go into depth about it.

I suspect I overload them with info they just shut down after a little while. I think it would be more engaging if it was a video or a story. But the only way they'd listen is if the subject matter appeals to them.

I find that this skillset lends itself to writing, teaching, public speaking, law (barrister), advocating, diplomacy, preaching etc.

14/11/2018 20:20Posted by Brigante
It is unfortunate, because sometimes the nuances of what you are getting at are lost when people just skim a post, and of course, text based communication is absolutely -awful- for getting across meaning. People generally make the assumptions that if you are writing a lot of words, you are angry, or being aggressive, which may be entirely the opposite to what you actually mean. I mean just about every post I make is with a kind of jocular mood, or sardonic mockery at worst.
So true. While most of the time when i make a post, it is with longing dreamer mode on, or excitement rather than anger, except when certain people pick a fight, or something just really bugs me.

Which use to be rare except for recently with the poor night elf treatment intensifying in BFA, but yes, so true.

I find it so annoying when people respond to me with something I have already covered and took the time to go into the detail, but they clearly didn't read it, making points or asking questions already answered in the body of the text. It is so clear they haven't read it, so I either have to repeat myself and for their benefit i try to reword it, thinking, maybe they didn't understand how I phrased it the first time (English afterall might not be the first language of some of the readers and posters). Alas, some seem to get it, others don't, most don't respond so you don't know either way.

14/11/2018 20:20Posted by Brigante
Telephones are almost as bad, but at least there you can hear pitch and tone of voice. We forget how much of human communication is still reliant on the very same things that animals use, posture and facial expression. It is actually why telephone based customer service work is so hard, you are having to make up for the fact that your main expressor is actually missing.
Yes, so true, especially as you mentioned when people thing you are being angry because of the text. I guess like you, I try to use words to express alot of the information that telephone or visual communications might provide. But alas, sometimes I get the feeling people think I am angry at them because I respond to them with lots of texts, this has sometimes developed into a sort of conflict with a number of people from time to time, all because of the missing information, not to mention the cultural differences that skew interpretation.

If they could have seen my expressions or heard my voice on the very first tone, they have gotten a completely different idea about me and what I am saying than what they got.

Sometimes people don't judge what you say, but you, they are not reacting to your text or words, but to you. If they think you're angry or they don't like you, it doesn't matter what you say, or how you say it, they won't like it, and for the likes of us, it is hard to come back from there, because we write so much, they may never read the text that might inevitably have corrected their view.

14/11/2018 20:20Posted by Brigante
I mean, perhaps a web stream is a better method of communication, I suppose, as then you have all three signifiers in place, the actual words, the pitch and tone, and also facial expression.

This is possibly why some businesses are moving towards that model, rather than simple 'conference calls'.

Anyway, I digress...See what I mean about using one word where ten will do!
haha. Yes, indeed, I have been meaning to start one for a while, on night elves, as I think it communicates my thoughts and ideas better, but alas, life gets in the way. Eventually one day, when i get started i think i can go all the way, and it may help.

But these forums are so bad at posting anything video wise and linking elements, sigh. But they say they are developing new ones, so we'll see.

Listen to me, 10 words instead of 1.
I don't mean to be inconsiderate, but your posts are entirely unreadable to me, Kalibas.

I've read my fair share throughout the years, but walls of text like that are not what I'm looking for when participating in a discussion on a forum. I think a metaphor for how my mind percieves it would be a discussion at a party, where suddenly one person launches into an hour long sermon.

Brevity is an art. It's about respecting the time of the recipients of your intended message.

PS: Not particularly young.
14/11/2018 23:36Posted by Izzifix
I don't mean to be inconsiderate, but your posts are entirely unreadable to me, Kalibas.


Not only to you, I just try to detect key sentences and skip majority of the content.
I'd personally grant medal to people who actually read all of that.

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