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12/11/2018 13:02Posted by Saphiramoon
12/11/2018 12:39Posted by Tèsla
95% of the ppl playin use addons. A serve addonfree it would make all the players equal.


They would need to delete discipline, which is unplayable without boss mods :P. They would also need to severely nerf bosses, because without pre-emptive raid cds the dmg would be too high.

I guess it depends a lot on the class you play. The less responsibilities you have, the less you need to know when exactly some abilities happen. If all you need to do is dps the boss and move out of bad, then yeah, you don't need dbm.


I don't really see a "you need to install DBM in order to effectively tank this boss" warning when you start to raid in game ?
Removing random gear upgrades.
12/11/2018 13:14Posted by Tèsla
But with a nerf wouldnt you curious about this mode?

Not really, no. I prefer things being hard and me having the tools to deal with it, than things just being easy. I played a healer in TBC without addons - only dungeons ofc - and discovering healing frames was amazing, so much useful info at your fingers, it was like the role actually opened up to me. I think a lot of people would stop playing healers if they had to use only the wow ui (me included - and I've played a healer without breaks since TBC).

Bosses nowadays are designed with addons usage in mind, and that's why they can be so unforgiving on mythic modes. One boss nowadays has as many mechanics as the entire Molten Core.

In my class/spec case, in order to perform decently, I need to apply an 8/15 seconds buff to people early enough that I get to do it on enough people but not too late that it runs out before the damage spike happens. If I miss that timer by 3 seconds, my performance drops like a brick. Could the wow interface give me a 3 seconds precision on boss abilities? Nope. Could I use both healing spels and dps ones in fast succession if I had to retarget every time? Hell no.

I think addons just help you process information better, but you're still the one that does the processing, you just have more info to use, but also to sort. They aren't playing the game for you, they aren't telling you what buttons to press if you don't already know what you need to press and you just want to know when it is the best time to do it.

Ofc all this becomes important in higher difficulties. I'm pretty sure you can raid normal without any addons and even heroic once geared sufficiently to allow you a bit of room for error.

12/11/2018 13:21Posted by Vaaleera
I don't really see a "you need to install DBM in order to effectively tank this boss" warning when you start to raid in game ?

Ofc you don't. But you also don't see "you don't need to install any addon in order to effectively tank this boss" either xD. If you can play your role effectively without addons, more power to you. I just never met such a player.

Edit: Out of curiosity, what mythic tiers did you clear without addons as a tank? If I'm too indiscreet, ignore the question, I don't mean to pry, it's honest curiosity.
12/11/2018 13:21Posted by Vaaleera
I don't really see a "you need to install DBM in order to effectively tank this boss" warning when you start to raid in game ?

Ofc you don't. But you also don't see "you don't need to install any addon in order to effectively tank this boss" either xD. If you can play your role effectively without addons, more power to you. I just never met such a player.

Edit: Out of curiosity, what mythic tiers did you clear without addons as a tank? If I'm too indiscreet, ignore the question, I don't mean to pry, it's honest curiosity.


Well you met one now, because I am seriously against AddOns that out of personal preference refuse to use any of them . Beside Skada ( and I used that only in legion as an etalon to check if my rotation / talents choice, personal flavours hurt my dps by a mile)

To back it up : - I was in end game raiding guild in Burning Crusade, pushing to kill Illidan in the first few weeks of the patch. We did it like 2 month's into the expasion .

- I had my own guild in WoTLK striving to push LK on 25 man. We didn't down him on 10 man only after late in the Patch. Also geared the whole guild true Trial of The Crusader .

- Didn't play Pandaria ( mostly out of boredom , switched to L2 in that period).

Now more contemporan :

- I pushed HC Antorus up to Argus and downed him in the first month.

For Mythics - I tanked up to +11-12 using a DK in Legion, and in BFA only +10 but not in time ( with 5 minutes delay, mostly because of bad use of CC).

Of course needless to say I did this on different chars. I played a DK in Legion, now I play a paladin in BFA .

To sum it up , my raiding / mythic experience may not be impressive and may win you an argument that , I never tried mythic raiding part, but in my defense , I quite wow hardcore gaming back in WoTLK when I skipped a month of raiding to finish my studies and when I returned I was kicked by the guild that I mainly geared. The only time I installed addon's was in TBC when every guild had me print screen my damn UI to validate my application. Disabled them after. So I might not be the one to talk, but I am sure that putting sufficient Hard Core time into getting back into the game, I can probably do all the super high end difficult content without the use of any addons, since all the mechanics need trivial communication and are the same refurbished mechanics since TBC to now.

I main one philosophy - if blizzard wanted something to appear on your screen to make you more aware of the surrounds , they would have done it. The game as it is in terms of mechanics is pretty dull anyway.

Remember SSC in TBC , well Uldir is not SSC, or the council in BT or Professor Putricide in ICC.

I didn't needed addons for the harder content back in the days, not going to need them now to be good.
P.S TL : DR to my above post : If you really need an addon , to tell you were to place the boss, were to move it, and what to do when he does something, then needless to say that experimenting with a high end guild won't help you even with addons.

Don't get me wrong, not blaming or calling names anyone who uses addons, but if you can't see a stacking ability that reduces armor or healing, or you cannot position youreself to avoid not target able abilities, then it's easy to say that this game exceeds your thinking capabilities. Plus everything is repeatable so practice makes perfect.
I unsubbed, because the game became boring, shallow and...just bad.
- Loss of talents. I liked the talent trees, I liked how they worked. This "talents" suck and do not motivate me at all to chose any.
- Professions. Last 3 expansions they are not relevant at all. I want to craft my gear, but why should I if there is little gear and it sucks?
- Reputations. Farming a reputation should have a reason (even if the prestige would be the reason). Now, it is forced for revered to get flying and at exalted, you can get an ugly mount, tabard you won`t wear and a crappy item. Why bother?
- Endgame is a disaster. I am not a HC raider, I am a grown up man with job, family and all the real life stuff. I want to play solo and enjoy, farming, slowly growing stronger and so on. The usual MMORPG stuff. What can I do? Rush mythics+ - I hated dungeon rushing since TBC. Now it is the forced mainstream? I don`t have a full evening to raid. It never was an issue. Until now, since there is nothing to do!
Content was reduced to rushing m+, raiding with toxic community or pvp. I avoided these things for 14 years, because I didn`t wanted to do it. Now it is the only thing you can do.
- Shallow bad story. The story is very poorly written. Occassional plot twist, then again nothing. Blizzard thinks, their characters are strong, but on the contrary. From last 3 expansions, there is almost no memorable character. Just the recycled ones. Okay, Bwomsamdi is awesome, but he is not the reason I should play WoW.
- Almost no content. Blizzard is insanely spewing cosmetical stuff. Mounts, toys, battle pets, tabards, transmogs. Come on, this is World of Warcraft, not a Barbie makeover studio. Cosmetics are fine, but not as the main reason to play the game.
- Characters are "universal". The classes lost it`s unique feel. You have last free spot in a raid. Whom will you take? A shadow priest or a fire mage or an arms warrior? Now, it does not matter at all, you just need DPS.
- TIMEGATING content. Whoever came with the idea and whoever approved and supported it, deserves to have timegated pizza. First eat the crust and then, receive one piece of salami and jalapeno per month. And after 6 months, drink the sauce. This is what timegating did to WoW. It made it idiotic.

So, long story short. I don`t mind the mechanics change. I am okay with class changes, spells, GCD and all the things.
I cancelled my sub, because this game became bad, shallow, boring and simply a cashgrab. It is not worth 12 euro/month, not even the one time 40 euro payment for new expansions.
Blizzard has some quality levels I expect and I am used to. The quality is gone and the level is somewhere below the abyss.
possibly the biggest one for me, is annoucing kul'tiran and zandarari as pre-order rewards.. for buying BFA and then holding them back for potentially 10+ months.
12/11/2018 15:21Posted by Vaaleera
To sum it up , my raiding / mythic experience may not be impressive and may win you an argument that ,

That was not the intention of my question. Everybody is free to do the content they are interested in, but there are significant changes from one thing to another: some you will not know, some I will not. For example, I only tanked sporadically during my wow life and only casual stuff - so I don't know what tanking takes. Maybe it can be done like you say. For me, healing without addons is a no-no. I know some people use mouseover macros, I do it too on betas/ptr, but it's clunky for me and I hate it.

12/11/2018 15:21Posted by Vaaleera
I main one philosophy - if blizzard wanted something to appear on your screen to make you more aware of the surrounds , they would have done it. The game as it is in terms of mechanics is pretty dull anyway.

Sadly blizzard lacks almost any kind of timers, and that part is integral to my class/spec. Further more, the base ui lacks almost any kind of customization, which I also find meh.

At the end of the day, each to his own. I would not play the game without addons, I don't find any gain from it. I like to have information, I like to set how I get the information. I've never seen a bad player turn into a good one by downloading an addon. I did however see many people completely oblivious to mechanics that did not use DBM. Obviously, if that's your cup of tea, I'm not the one to judge it.

12/11/2018 15:25Posted by Vaaleera
If you really need an addon , to tell you were to place the boss, were to move it, and what to do when he does something,

No addon does that. They only tell you when the next ability will come. What you do with that information is completely up to you.

12/11/2018 15:25Posted by Vaaleera
Don't get me wrong, not blaming or calling names anyone who uses addons, but if you can't see a stacking ability that reduces armor or healing, or you cannot position youreself to avoid not target able abilities, then it's easy to say that this game exceeds your thinking capabilities. Plus everything is repeatable so practice makes perfect.


Dots or auras can be made more obvious by weakauras I suppose, but other than that...no addon tells you where to stand.
As I said. Everything that I need is intergrated by blizzard.

In BFA when I started to play this Hunter, I understood I need to keep the frenzy stack to 3 as much as I can, and it was idiotic that I needed to target the pet in order to see the timer and then tab to boss and shot it. I thought that I would really need to install an addon for that and I was really sad.

But then I saw that you can actually follow it above your health and focus bellow your char ...Then I realized yeah, the game actually don't needs anything more.
12/11/2018 12:02Posted by Galander
12/11/2018 11:55Posted by Electrocutie
2) an addon free server, an entire server where all addons are completely banned.

Out of pure curiosity... why?


simple really, and the same reason athletes get drug tested before competing in the Olympic games. Wow has become so vey dependent on addons that actiblizz are designing the entire game around them .. leaving those not willing to use them in the dust. This logic makes me sick, I pay the exact same as everyone else and yet im forced, yes forced, to download addons from a third party just to play even normal mode raids. I used to do fairly high end stuff, then I discovered a lot of issues from a third party addon and I subsequently deleted all of them and was removed from the roster of raiders in my guild as I refused to reinstall them.

Healing and tanking have become impossible without them, causing most people who might be tempted in to those roles to permanently reject the idea to the detriment of the game. I also blame ability pruning by actiblizzard down to this and view it as their attempt to try and remove reliance upon addons .. an action I find reprehensible, as ability pruning has made my game less enjoyable. Utility and ways around things was always a fine part of wow, for me.

No bots anywhere in the world or in instances (well, obviously only from people from my server).

Also, itd stop (or at least make it very difficult) AH farmers from farming money off me .. which is also find incredibly irritating. Obviously youd have to stop cross server transactions and movement to and from the server and invites to groups could only be made with people on your server. Complicated but I don't want any addon users anywhere near my server.

No multiboxers causing havoc.

Noone whispering me begging for my loot because their addon tells me its an upgrade for them, even though its a big upgrade for me.

yup, give me an addon free server and id stay here for the rest of my gaming life.
12/11/2018 16:07Posted by Vaaleera
As I said. Everything that I need is intergrated by blizzard.

In BFA when I started to play this Hunter, I understood I need to keep the frenzy stack to 3 as much as I can, and it was idiotic that I needed to target the pet in order to see the timer and then tab to boss and shot it. I thought that I would really need to install an addon for that and I was really sad.

But then I saw that you can actually follow it above your health and focus bellow your char ...Then I realized yeah, the game actually don't needs anything more.


I don't think this is what boss mods are about.

Many mythic mechanics require pre-positioning yourself in order to deal with some abilities. Positioning after the said ability happened is often likely to get you killed. For example, on mythic Argus, you could get a debuff that required you to go at the edge of the platform to drop it and a pile of !@#$ with it. If you just went and dropped it and at the same time the boss cone ability him, being at the edge of the platform would get you killed, as the distance to run would have been to long. That meant that on overlaps you needed to pre-position yourself. Same with the rage and fear debuffs - they required pre-positioning because overlaps were nasty. Positioning ourself as the ability hits or after is rather pointless, you already %^-*ed a few people.
If pre-positioning is a requirement Blizzard would introduce something. I don't think they release content that it is supposed to be overpowered via third party tools.
Since beginning of BFA the thing amuses me most is the amount of people who have unsubbed/quitted/gone for good keep posting about the game on forums.
12/11/2018 12:18Posted by Tèsla
Image to raid or m+ without DBM oir raid without raider.io or recount.
Is an interesting idea


WIthout DBM or BigWigs, sure. But you know people would still be able to look you up on r.io without you having the addon installed, right?
If every class would get atleast 10 more ability it would make the game a lot better. Or you know just reverted the pruning they did from wotlk-bfa. I will never understand the pros of having 4 ability on every class instead of 10-15.
12/11/2018 12:20Posted by Râlph
I honestly didnt mind azerite armor as much unlike the majority, my main issues were:

-PvP being a complete disaster for most casters since melee are given huge mobility and damage while casters require ridiculous ramp up and can still be shut down easily(What has caused this is Ion's belief that classes shouldnt be independent by having "Everything" therefore now you can only be viable if you stick to a class with utillity you lack

-Raiding gear drops, i dont know if they changed anything but rarely getting drops from raid bosses even with coins(Which they reduced) and even worse getting items that arent upgrades is tiring, it makes you feel you are wasting your time

-Pushing m+ hard, m+ is the best way to get gear outsize azerite by spamming them all day and getting mythic raiding gear thanks to TF, they are promoting a ridiculously repetitive content that makes people who want gear FORCED to do m+ all day which of course they are gonna hate sooner or later from repetition

-Warmode inbalance, 0 attempts to fix this even though the imbalance was obvious since launch and we knew it would onyl get worse, they avoided the subject like plague, and now after 5 months in 8.1 maybe they think about buffing the % for the alliance, guess what? Damage has already been done, even 50% wont make people bother

-Refusing to fix obvious issues fast, we knew nether portal talent was badly designed by letting casters spam 1 shadow bolt and hand of guldan, we knew that from BETA, 5 months after release is when they choose to fix this, 5 MONTHS

-Mobile, specifically the fact that they didnt expect the enormous backlash, something has really changed, blizzard has always been cunning about how they market and their anouncements but that was clearly an enormous mistake and with the change of president in blizzard, maybe they are changing a lot more

-WC3, no i wont replay a game i played a thousand times as a kid and beat it on hard difficulty because you reskinned it. It just show 0 interest in innovating or creating something and is just an attempt to get money by reskinning old successful games just like the CoD franchise


Pvp being a disaster for most caster ? The best comps at the moments feature : frost mage , Fire mage , Balance Druid , shadow priest. Which means only warlocks and elemental shamens are not top tier.

You can’t really want that all caster outclass all meele , can you ? Meele have speccs with struggle too. All dk speccs are useless, feral abuses a trait to stay relevant, ww monk doesn’t exists and so on.

Caster shouldn’t complain at the moment about pvp
My biggest lure to this game was the community before crz and sharding messed it all up. Having a smaller community on a server, knowing the big player and admiring them, running into friends and aquaintances in the world, meeting new people on dungeon runs and creating new bonds. With all that gone and sharding making it unable to even see guildies when we stand next to eachother in a town, just made the game bland, empty and soulless.
13/11/2018 09:53Posted by Karseth
My biggest lure to this game was the community before crz and sharding messed it all up. Having a smaller community on a server, knowing the big player and admiring them, running into friends and aquaintances in the world, meeting new people on dungeon runs and creating new bonds. With all that gone and sharding making it unable to even see guildies when we stand next to eachother in a town, just made the game bland, empty and soulless.


You know? sometimes i miss TBC\wotlk times on sporeggar server. This was a dead server. I knew almost every horde ppl running around. and many alliance (just by sight i didnt have an ally back in time).
I made all my firends at that time (every one lost).
13/11/2018 08:49Posted by Bitterborn
If every class would get atleast 10 more ability it would make the game a lot better. Or you know just reverted the pruning they did from wotlk-bfa. I will never understand the pros of having 4 ability on every class instead of 10-15.


Ive got an answer . The less buttons you need , the less IQ req , the more people will play . Not a rocket sience, isnt it?
13/11/2018 10:03Posted by Ztasonì
Ive got an answer . The less buttons you need , the less IQ req , the more people will play . Not a rocket sience, isnt it


less buttons presses has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with needing more macros and addons that other people have designed and thus creates a huge gap between people who use macros and addons versus those who don't.
Actiblizz removed a lot of abilities to try remove the necessity of addons and macros, hoping that people would see that and not wah wah about it.
That said, I could do with a 120 ability because this would have lead to a bit of pride/feeling of advancement when you dinged max. I think actiblizz missed an opportunity there. Some classes need another skill or two, some don't. Fury warrior yes, elemental shaman no.

as a side note, rocket science is the lowest form of the sciences and laughed at by most physicists as being the junior of the bunch. Somewhat akin to the difference between surgery and internal medicine.

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