[Spoilers alert] 8.1 Discussion Thread 4

Argent Dawn
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14/11/2018 01:09Posted by Dudflex
Apparently you get the Onyx war Hyena from a Rated Battleground or Rated Arena
Victory. (unknown if that's you win once you get it or if you win you have a chance of getting it is unclear.)

Guess I'm going to have to find me an Arena buddy to win one with if I want to complete my collection... I'm screwed.

I think I've heard "new hyena mounts" ?

Which makes me think; any news on the vicious saddles and new ways to get the 'old' vicious mounts ?
13/11/2018 19:41Posted by Faceslinger
I'd rather not see this slowly-getting-obvious Horde victory to be turned into another rebellion because Baine only now hit puberty. The Horde, writing-wise, seems unable to win unless they deploy extreme methods, something which is starting to become a real pain considering that the leaders are unable to cope with winning 'by all means necessary' instead of 'letting all of people get stomped for the 6th time in 10 years'.

That's 1.6 stomps per year. It's not good writing, and it's definitely not good decision-making as a leader. I think we need more representation of those who support Sylvanas (other than Nathanos). I know my characters do. We need more actual-Horde representation; what do soldiers think? What do champions think? Is the Saurfang quest choice meant to be that representation?

How are they the ones getting stomped, though? Yeah, their Warchiefs are dropping like flies, no argument there, but if you look on actual lives and land lost, the Alliance have been dealt a far harsher hand than the Horde.

The nelves have been steadily losing more and more land over the expansions, the Worgen lost everything to the Forsaken, the northen part of the Eastern Kingdoms were largely lost the Horde as well. When exactly did they face any kind of stomping, aside from when Garrosh threw his fit? And keep in mind that they were part of winning that. The Alliance gained !@#$ all from it. They didn't even kick the orcs out of Ashenvale.

And while the Horde often wins through extreme methods, the Alliance seem to often need to be bailed out be ex machinas, which is arguably just as bad if not worse. The Horde were set to win at Undercity, since the Alliance were apparently completely caught off guard by the use of Blight, which of course also make them look like incompetent morons, but that's another story.
If Jaina hadn't shown up, they'd likely have been routed. Then as they push forward, they needed -another- ex machina in the form of Alleria pulling in more troops. Same as in Pandaria, they couldn't win on their own, they needed the Horde's help to deal with Garrosh.

And now, at least based on the cinematic with Anduin and Saurfang, they are -again- unable to finish things on their own, and -again- need someone to bail them out.

Like, I can sympathise with the people who are tired of being the game's token bad guys, but being the punching bag for said bad guys is really getting old, too. Especially since they end up pulling the 'Oh noes, we don't want to be as bad as them, so we'll just tell them that they were naughty and ask them not to do it again' card, rather than actually getting a win for all they've lost.
13/11/2018 23:06Posted by Telaryn
Maybe unpopular opinion but I still don't hate BFA.

It's not an unpopular opinion, though I don't share it.

In fact my impression from these threads is, that people holding your opinion are a lot more liable to attack both the opinion and person behind it of people who disagree.

13/11/2018 23:06Posted by Telaryn
Besides the fact that it's just a game and that there's no reason to get so invested in it like as if you're being personally drafted to the war

and
13/11/2018 23:06Posted by Telaryn
Also the intelligent take is to know

are just examples taken from your post.

There's no need for us all to agree on liking the story direction of Warcraft, but these forums display an obvious need to vent both positive and negative emotions regarding the topic.

And it would be nice to be able to do so, without being confronted with "you're so negative / unintelligent" or "stop taking the game so seriously" tbh.
14/11/2018 02:37Posted by Narmë
14/11/2018 01:09Posted by Dudflex
Apparently you get the Onyx war Hyena from a Rated Battleground or Rated Arena
Victory. (unknown if that's you win once you get it or if you win you have a chance of getting it is unclear.)

Guess I'm going to have to find me an Arena buddy to win one with if I want to complete my collection... I'm screwed.

I think I've heard "new hyena mounts" ?

Which makes me think; any news on the vicious saddles and new ways to get the 'old' vicious mounts ?


There are 4
2 for season 1 (Riverbeast for Alliance, Clefthoof for the Horde)
2 for season 2 (Warsaber for Alliance, Bonestead for the Horde)
14/11/2018 10:05Posted by Dudflex
14/11/2018 02:37Posted by Narmë
...
I think I've heard "new hyena mounts" ?

Which makes me think; any news on the vicious saddles and new ways to get the 'old' vicious mounts ?


There are 4
2 for season 1 (Riverbeast for Alliance, Clefthoof for the Horde)
2 for season 2 (Warsaber for Alliance, Bonestead for the Horde)

No, no, that wasn't what I meant. They removed the system of "do rated pvp, get a vicious saddle, buy the mount you want" in profit of that "get whatever is the mount this season" (which is a terrible system by the way, and I hate it); but there was talk of "we're gonna put another way to get the old vicious mounts (hawkstrider, raptor, etc.), somehow, we don't know how yet". I was asking if there was any news on that.
14/11/2018 10:29Posted by Narmë
14/11/2018 10:05Posted by Dudflex
...

There are 4
2 for season 1 (Riverbeast for Alliance, Clefthoof for the Horde)
2 for season 2 (Warsaber for Alliance, Bonestead for the Horde)

No, no, that wasn't what I meant. They removed the system of "do rated pvp, get a vicious saddle, buy the mount you want" in profit of that "get whatever is the mount this season" (which is a terrible system by the way, and I hate it); but there was talk of "we're gonna put another way to get the old vicious mounts (hawkstrider, raptor, etc.), somehow, we don't know how yet". I was asking if there was any news on that.


No, sadly, what I saw was only a list of new mounts being introduced and their flavour text.
14/11/2018 04:14Posted by Melian
How are they the ones getting stomped, though?
14/11/2018 04:14Posted by Melian
They didn't even kick the orcs out of Ashenvale.
Entirely wrong. While the game might do a bad job at portraying the actual lore events happening, that does not mean they did not happen. MoP's resolution demanded that the Horde pulls out of Ashenvale. I won't go into detail about how little the night elves actually lost in lore as opposed to the game world, and how much the Forsaken lost in their conquest of a useless (blighted) Gilneas, nor will I go into detail about the stable footholds the Alliance has had near Horde capitals with no equivalents for the later.

(edit)
14/11/2018 04:14Posted by Melian
they couldn't win on their own, they needed the Horde's help to deal with Garrosh.
Also reminder that Garrosh employed Molten Giants in Ashenvale, Dalaran was fighting a goblin/mage laser war over the Bilgewater cannon, Northrend beasts were left to run rampant and decimate entire armies, and many Pandaria weapons (Mogu/Mantid) were employed against the invaders/rebels. Also, didn't they have a kraken in Orgrimmar's harbour?

(/edit)

I'm not saying that the Horde has never had any victories and the Alliance has never been stomped in turn, but there is an undeniable progress towards a slow overall victory by the blue side. It is important to remember that the difference between win/lose in a war does not solely come from 'who won the most battles'. If you exhaust your army during your conquest just so you can win individual battles, you'll lose the war.

For that matter, the Horde has been largely lacking clean water, lumber, or overall food supplies since the Cataclysm (although the water part was 'fixed' recently). Their armies' numbers are largely dwindling (Forsaken, blood elves), and in the newest examples of lore (BfA shortstories/novel) all characters agree that it's impossible for the Horde to win an open 'clean' war -- the Alliance has a much larger military advantage. While they might've lost a lot of land, they also pushed the Horde in a position from which they could not foreseeably get up again (which is why Varian did not 'end them'). The Alliance had won; the Horde had no direct means of winning.

Then Azerite happened. This will change everything.

And as I am typing this, I realise that -- hey -- Blizzard has been keeping track of what's happening. Only on the larger scale, but enough to make the story connect coherently. They might not be the worst writers after all.
14/11/2018 04:14Posted by Melian
How are they the ones getting stomped, though?
14/11/2018 04:14Posted by Melian
They didn't even kick the orcs out of Ashenvale.
Entirely wrong. While the game might do a bad job at portraying the actual lore events happening, that does not mean they did not happen. MoP's resolution demanded that the Horde pulls out of Ashenvale. I won't go into detail about how little the night elves actually lost in lore as opposed to the game world, and how much the Forsaken lost in their conquest of a useless (blighted) Gilneas, nor will I go into detail about the stable footholds the Alliance has had near Horde capitals with no equivalents for the later.

If that's the case then I stand corrected, I'll admit that I've based it mostly on what we've been shown in the game and cinematics. Though if they actually were supposed to have pulled out of Ashenvale entire, then it's a bit odd that they'd choose to both reference and use the various Horde bases during the War of Thorns event, as well as the war table later on. It really did seem like nothing had changed.
14/11/2018 12:28Posted by Faceslinger
I'm not saying that the Horde has never had any victories and the Alliance has never been stomped in turn, but there is an undeniable progress towards a slow overall victory by the blue side. It is important to remember that the difference between win/lose in a war does not solely come from 'who won the most battles'. If you exhaust your army during your conquest just so you can win individual battles, you'll lose the war.

Oh, I know, but the problem is that's never really been presented properly, nor ever even seemed to have any kind of real importance either. The outcomes have generally been decided by significant events, rather than attrition.
14/11/2018 12:28Posted by Faceslinger
For that matter, the Horde has been largely lacking clean water, lumber, or overall food supplies since the Cataclysm (although the water part was 'fixed' recently). Their armies' numbers are largely dwindling (Forsaken, blood elves), and in the newest examples of lore (BfA shortstories/novel) all characters agree that it's impossible for the Horde to win an open 'clean' war -- the Alliance has a much larger military advantage. While they might've lost a lot of land, they also pushed the Horde in a position from which they could not foreseeably get up again (which is why Varian did not 'end them'). The Alliance had won; the Horde had no direct means of winning.

Honestly, it's a shame they've not focused more on the former. I mean, after the Cataclysm, the Horde in Kalimdor ended up with the potential to expand lumber operations in their own territories, even more so given that they have druid of their own. And while the Forsaken might not have much need for such things, there'd still also be potential to plant crops in many of the areas they control.

I also agree that the Horde shouldn't really have the numbers to go head to head with the Alliance, but that is again not something we've been shown ingame. Even the latest cinematic seems to claim otherwise, that the Alliance can't win on their own since now -they- are apparently running out of troops.

As for Varian not ending them, as far as I recall the reason they gave for that, was that actually ending the Horde would result in massive casualties for both sides, regardless of whether the victory was assured or not.
14/11/2018 12:28Posted by Faceslinger
They might not be the worst writers after all.


They are.
14/11/2018 19:12Posted by Eridu
14/11/2018 12:28Posted by Faceslinger
They might not be the worst writers after all.


They are.


You obviously not seen that many writers.

shudders at the thought of the dreaded "Hold on tight Spider monkey" from twilight and the fact that someone died from EVERYTHING in Passengers
Blizzard are pulpy writers, but they're not the worst writers out there. The setting certainly isn't as bad as Eragon.
14/11/2018 08:59Posted by Moody
13/11/2018 23:06Posted by Telaryn
Maybe unpopular opinion but I still don't hate BFA.

It's not an unpopular opinion, though I don't share it.

In fact my impression from these threads is, that people holding your opinion are a lot more liable to attack both the opinion and person behind it of people who disagree.

13/11/2018 23:06Posted by Telaryn
Besides the fact that it's just a game and that there's no reason to get so invested in it like as if you're being personally drafted to the war

and
13/11/2018 23:06Posted by Telaryn
Also the intelligent take is to know

are just examples taken from your post.

There's no need for us all to agree on liking the story direction of Warcraft, but these forums display an obvious need to vent both positive and negative emotions regarding the topic.

And it would be nice to be able to do so, without being confronted with "you're so negative / unintelligent" or "stop taking the game so seriously" tbh.


You're right. I am sorry, mellon. The things underlined were mostly sarcasm, but I get that it comes across as a dick thing to say.

I mean everyone has right to say their opinion regarding the state of the game, none of it is usually unfounded. That there are so many people with problems regarding it is a symptom of a real problem.

But at the same time, the !@#$ flinging I've seen going around (not necessarily always in these forums) towards those who manage to find some enjoyment or silver lining with the story is also pretty toxic.

Were this a pet peeve thread, I'd say that my problem is the state of the community, not the game.
Soggoth is back in the Darkshore Warfront

Who /canon campaigns/ here
Soggoth! I'm so excited!

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