"Everything is about honor when it comes to the Horde."

Argent Dawn
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08/11/2018 15:57Posted by Shinduh
Do you have anything in the recent lore backing this up? Because if I remember correctly it's been said in Before the Storm that she actually cares a lot about the Forsaken, althought in her own specific way.


They are still "arrows in her quiver." She wants to master death and the Forsaken can help her accomplish this. Sylvanas will let "her people" die if it means she'll be safe from the afterlife.


"Don't act so surprised. We both know the Banshee Queen has always been capable of tactics like these. As she's so fond of saying, they are the arrows in her quiver.
This changes nothing for me... or for what I need to do."


Quote from Lillian Voss.
08/11/2018 16:30Posted by Terajo
They are still "arrows in her quiver." She wants to master death and the Forsaken can help her accomplish this. Sylvanas will let "her people" die if it means she'll be safe from the afterlife.


"But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore."

Edge of Night was published ages ago, why do people only read the first page and quote it really factually without the conclusion in mind

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story/short-story/leader-story/sylvanas-windrunner#tab=7
08/11/2018 16:30Posted by Terajo
They are still "arrows in her quiver."


If my memory serves well, I specifically remember Alleria using the very same expression. Guess she doesn't care about the Void Elves or the Alliance either!

08/11/2018 16:30Posted by Terajo
She wants to master death and the Forsaken can help her accomplish this.


Really? I'd love to get a quote of this, I don't remember her stating her end goal, but I might have missed it.

08/11/2018 16:30Posted by Terajo
Sylvanas will let "her people" die if it means she'll be safe from the afterlife.


Again, do you have anything that proves this? A moment in BfA where she just runs away when she didn't warned, letting people die behind her while she disappears?

Because I don't recall Sylvanas doing that.

08/11/2018 16:30Posted by Terajo
"Don't act so surprised. We both know the Banshee Queen has always been capable of tactics like these. As she's so fond of saying, they are the arrows in her quiver.
This changes nothing for me... or for what I need to do."


Can I have the context of that quote, please? I probably haven't reached that part yet.
08/11/2018 16:41Posted by Perroy
08/11/2018 16:30Posted by Terajo
They are still "arrows in her quiver." She wants to master death and the Forsaken can help her accomplish this. Sylvanas will let "her people" die if it means she'll be safe from the afterlife.


"But they were no longer arrows in her quiver, not anymore."

Edge of Night was published ages ago, why do people only read the first page and quote it really factually without the conclusion in mind

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story/short-story/leader-story/sylvanas-windrunner#tab=7


Why would Lillian quote Sylvanas if it was no longer the case? Unless this is another example of Blizzard forgetting their own lore again and being inconsistent. It doesn't really matter though. You can't say with a straight face that if Sylvanas had to choose between her people or avoiding her ultimate fate that she'd opt for the former. This is the way she's being written in the current narrative.
08/11/2018 16:48Posted by Terajo
Why would Lillian quote Sylvanas if it was no longer the case?


Other character's spoken word vs the character in question's internal dialogue

I could say "Terajo constantly posts about me being extremely handsome" but that wouldn't make it true (though it is true)
08/11/2018 16:51Posted by Perroy
Other character's spoken word vs the character in question's internal dialogue


You're being way too optimistic thinking it is meant to be interpreted like this. The entire writing of BFA has been inconsistent. It's easier to assume they have just forgotten about Edge of Night because Lillian didn't formally join up with the Forsaken until BFA and she had to hear her utter the "arrows in her quiver" line pretty recently in that case.

08/11/2018 16:51Posted by Perroy
I could say "Terajo constantly posts about me being extremely handsome" but that wouldn't make it true (though it is true)


no stop
You're being way too optimistic thinking it is meant to be interpreted like this. The entire writing of BFA has been inconsistent. It's easier to assume they have just forgotten about Edge of Night because Lillian didn't formally join up with the Forsaken until BFA and she had to hear her utter the "arrows in her quiver" line pretty recently in that case.


Yeah or... you know...
Sylvanas changed. Shocking, I know.
Besides I think she was already using the expression while alive, it was on Dark Mirror I think? Gosh I have a poor memory.
Really? I'd love to get a quote of this, I don't remember her stating her end goal, but I might have missed it.


It was already somewhat established in Edge of Night that she wants to avoid eternal torment. She needs three Val'kyr to bring her back if she dies again. I don't want to get into spoiler territory, but those numbers have pretty much been reached and she can't afford losing another one lest one more death will be her "final" one.

Again, do you have anything that proves this? A moment in BfA where she just runs away when she didn't warned, letting people die behind her while she disappears?

Because I don't recall Sylvanas doing that.


Come on now, all you have to do is take one look at the way Sylvanas has been presented as a moustache twirling villain. She'll sacrifice the Horde or Forsaken in a heartbeat if it otherwise meant excruciating torture for her soul. Not that I can particularly blame her on that one because it's a selfish choice many others would realistically make, but Sylvanas is nevertheless the one on the chopping block here.

08/11/2018 16:46Posted by Shinduh
Can I have the context of that quote, please? I probably haven't reached that part yet.


A bunch of Horde characters give their collective thoughts on one of Sylvanas' upcoming actions in Tides of Vengeance. This isn't a spoiler thread so you should look at the specifics on Wowhead if you're interested.
08/11/2018 17:05Posted by Terajo
It was already somewhat established in Edge of Night that she wants to avoid eternal torment. She needs three Val'kyr to bring her back if she dies again. I don't want to get into spoiler territory, but those numbers have pretty much been reached and she can't afford losing another one lest one more death will be her "final" one.


Avoiding Death and becoming the master of it is kinda different. I mean, if she was so obsess about that, she could've used the 7 years between WOTLK and BFA to find a way to kill Bolvar and become the Lich Queen. So I'm afraid it's more of an interpretation from your part than actual facts.
(Not that there's anything wrong with that)

08/11/2018 17:05Posted by Terajo
Come on now, all you have to do is take one look at the way Sylvanas has been presented as a moustache twirling villain. She'll sacrifice the Horde or Forsaken in a heartbeat if it otherwise meant excruciating torture for her soul.


Again, as said previously, this is an interpretation. I don't see her sacrificing the Forsaken or the Horde, and nothing I've seen goes into that direction. I won't pretend knowing how she'd react in X or Y situation since it hasn't been told to us.

08/11/2018 17:05Posted by Terajo
A bunch of Horde characters give their collective thoughts on one of Sylvanas' upcoming actions in Tides of Vengeance. This isn't a spoiler thread so you should look at the specifics on Wowhead if you're interested.


I'll check then, thanks!
They're no longer arrows in her quiver because they are now something more - a shield against the dark hell that awaits Sylvanas (and all undead? Or only those who have done a lot of evil stuff, like her and Arthas?) after death.

That you care a lot about a wall keeping a pack of hungry wolves from reaching you is obvious, but that doesn't imply any emotional attachment that would prevent you from ditching the wall if another alternative presents itself.
Again, as said previously, this is an interpretation. I don't see her sacrificing the Forsaken or the Horde, and nothing I've seen goes into that direction. I won't pretend knowing how she'd react in X or Y situation since it hasn't been told to us.


This war isn't inherently in the Horde's interest, however. It's all sprouted from the idea that Sylvannas wants to turn humanity undead. Like Blizzard said themselves a few nights ago "it's a war of destruction".
Again, as said previously, this is an interpretation. I don't see her sacrificing the Forsaken or the Horde, and nothing I've seen goes into that direction. I won't pretend knowing how she'd react in X or Y situation since it hasn't been told to us.


An interpretation based on Sylvanas' current arc in the narrative and on how she's being written in it. While I have more than my fair share of gripes with BFA's storytelling, I have no choice but to come up with plausible conclusions by looking at previously established and current lore. Morally grey memes aside, a developer at Blizzcon just said outright that she has "evil future plans" and the Horde will continue to be shoehorned into looking bad under her leadership.
08/11/2018 17:18Posted by Chíeun
They're no longer arrows in her quiver because they are now something more - a shield against the dark hell that awaits Sylvanas (and all undead? Or only those who have done a lot of evil stuff, like her and Arthas?) after death.

That you care a lot about a wall keeping a pack of hungry wolves from reaching you is obvious, but that doesn't imply any emotional attachment that would prevent you from ditching the wall if another alternative presents itself.


Where is it stated? I remember reading something similar somewhere, but I think it was some Alliance's argument on the Story Forum.
Because if it isn't stated, it is, again, interpretation, and holds no value to me as I don't share it.

This war isn't inherently in the Horde's interest, however. It's all sprouted from the idea that Sylvanas wants to turn humanity undead. Like Blizzard said themselves a few nights ago "it's a war of destruction".


To me, the term "War of Destruction" is a pleonasm. War is cruel and merciless. Besides, I thought it was a war sprouted from the idea that the Alliance will always attack for one reason or another, so they can't be trusted with a lasting peace? I suppose whether or not it's on the Horde's interest will depend on the result.

08/11/2018 17:18Posted by Terajo
An interpretation based on Sylvanas' current arc in the narrative and on how she's being written in it. While I have more than my fair share of gripes with BFA's storytelling, I have no choice but to come up with plausible conclusions by looking at previously established and current lore. Morally grey memes aside, a developer at Blizzcon just said outright that she has "evil future plans" and the Horde will continue to be shoehorned into looking bad under her leadership.


I get what you're saying. I just witness that, for the moment, she hasn't done anything evil to the Horde. And I won't believe Blizzard on future content seeing how BfA began and the misleading we had.
Honestly?

!@#$ Soyfang.

I'm choosing Sylvanas! We've clearly passed the point of no return, but since we're already here, let's just keep going and see how far can we go?
To me, the term "War of Destruction" is a pleonasm. War is cruel and merciless. Besides, I thought it was a war sprouted from the idea that the Alliance will always attack for one reason or another, so they can't be trusted with a lasting peace? I suppose whether or not it's on the Horde's interest will depend on the result.


I think there's a difference between war being destructive and a very specific war of destruction. A destructive war and a war of destruction have differing connotations. Which let's be honest here it is, Sylvannas' end goal is to wipe humanity from Azeroth; she pitched this to Nathanos before selling the idea of self defence to Varok.
08/11/2018 17:39Posted by Aerilen
I think there's a difference between war being destructive and a very specific war of destruction. A destructive war and a war of destruction have differing connotations. Which let's be honest here it is, Sylvannas' end goal is to wipe humanity from Azeroth; she pitched this to Nathanos before selling the idea of self defence to Varok.


Alright, you got me there.
To be completely fair, I don't see the destruction of humanity in Azeroth as a bad thing myself. But that's a matter of personal tastes which cannot really be discussed.
I need only look at this quest to see that Sylvanas still sees the Horde as mostly cannon-fodder.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Call_for_Allies_(Horde)

She measures every allied race only by how useful they would be in battle, and she literally calls the nightborne ' A most useful arrow to my quiver'.

So it seem we're back to the 'arrows in my quiver' analogy
08/11/2018 18:11Posted by Desartin
I need only look at this quest to see that Sylvanas still sees the Horde as mostly cannon-fodder.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Call_for_Allies_(Horde)

She measures every allied race only by how useful they would be in battle, and she literally calls the nightborne ' A most useful arrow to my quiver'.

So it seem we're back to the 'arrows in my quiver' analogy


Literally every single Allied Race quest for the Horde has Sylvanas say, to the recruiter's face, that she considers the new "allies" to be nothing but more expendable troops. It really doesn't help Liadrin, Baine and Eitrigg not seem like complete buffoons when they blindly follow her anyway.
08/11/2018 18:29Posted by Sanara
08/11/2018 18:11Posted by Desartin
I need only look at this quest to see that Sylvanas still sees the Horde as mostly cannon-fodder.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Call_for_Allies_(Horde)

She measures every allied race only by how useful they would be in battle, and she literally calls the nightborne ' A most useful arrow to my quiver'.

So it seem we're back to the 'arrows in my quiver' analogy


Literally every single Allied Race quest for the Horde has Sylvanas say, to the recruiter's face, that she considers the new "allies" to be nothing but more expendable troops. It really doesn't help Liadrin, Baine and Eitrigg not seem like complete buffoons when they blindly follow her anyway.


I can only hope that the three of them were having doubts since Day 1, and wanted to leverage some new allies to potentially curbstomp Sylvanas if they decide to have another uprising. I can't see HMTauren NOT siding with their kin if that does happen.

It's the only way to explain why nobody seems to care that Sylvanas indeed only evaluates the ARs based on their military prowess. She comes dangerously close to just describing the HMTauren as meatshields and little more.
SoO 2.0? So no Baine + Anduin Lovestory?

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