"Everything is about honor when it comes to the Horde."

Argent Dawn
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Sylvanas did kind of risk being destroyed to open a hole in Malfurions ghost wall that was vaporising her Orcs...

Also she does kind of need to go to war with the alliance and the humans to make more Forsaken.

Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Humans, Goblins, Gnomes, Tauren, Trolls and Worgen (sorta) all can reproduce naturally, babies will be born, they will grow up and join the alliance or horde, have babies of their own and so on....

Forsaken don't do that, to make a Forsaken she needs a dead Human (until recently), so every day, her people get a little more worn out, every death dwindles her population with no one to replace them.

For the Forsaken to remain, Humans must die, leaving the war too long? Well the Horde is down an entire race, the Forsaken having fallen apart, the alliance remaining just as strong, if not stronger with their farm lands and so on.
07/11/2018 19:29Posted by Langsley

In practise it seems to me alliance is more all about honor than horde


The Alliance has been the faction of high ideals and holding yourself to a standard, united by relatively common ideals (and faith) whereas the Horde is the motley band of misfits working together despite themselves, being difficult and chafing. Moreso with new and varied races either falling into rigid honour culture or philosophical pragmatiiism for survival.

07/11/2018 19:46Posted by Langsley
There's a significant chunk - over half, even - of the Horde who don't really give a !@#$ about honour. Certainly not a as a main facet of their culture.


You forget... when you join the horde you immediately assimilate into orcish culture (looks at undead in grunt armor) and start to build mud huts wherever you can...


The go-to move to elevate the Horde above itself has been to latch onto the highly diffuse and ill defined concept of honour with the orcs as the core since WC3. The fact that this doesn't work because nobody can agree on what is honourable in turn makes the plucky and diverse horde compelling up to a point.

It falters in BfA because the devs do a horrible job of portraying this stretched out across too much real life time and the "pragmatic" villainy being beyond excessive and written in such a way that every character has been lobotomised into forgetting the lesson of Garrosh. They also forget(?) some points of friction entirely like Houjin vs Zandalari.

The honour meme collapses the second the orcs aren't running the horde as defined by their post third war reconstruction culture, which happened in Cata. Pretense shed, it's reduced to a political buzzword ill fitted to most of the Horde's races.

07/11/2018 21:08Posted by Taxania

Can't believe there's some people who claim that the Alliance should have a story that's as dynamic and diverse as the Horde's.

[/quote]

Being one of those people, I'll say that I never wanted this kind of "diversity" in a Horde narrative. Another Garrosh could happen because Horde but it should be told better and especially now with the worldsoul at stake and both factions viably fighting for actual survival and continued existence without a defined outside enemy to distract them.

Because as we all know, this is about the faction war and absolutely not about anything old god related.

And yes, the war is about exterminating the humans for a continent spanning undead empire. A straight war of extermination hasn't been waged since the second war where Doomhammer would've thrown each and every human on a pyre for a new orc homeland. And even that was more nuanced than the current narrative where the Horde as a whole is dragged into the task for the benefit of a particular leader and race's global domination via worldsoul crystals.
All this talk about Sylvanas' need to kill all the humans so the Forsaken will endure. My question is, after she killed everyone, raised the entire kingdoms as the undead, what then? Surely they will wither away no matter what, no? Her goal is pretty pointless, especially after there are no corpses to bring back to life
09/11/2018 09:08Posted by Hallwell
All this talk about Sylvanas' need to kill all the humans so the Forsaken will endure. My question is, after she killed everyone, raised the entire kingdoms as the undead, what then? Surely they will wither away no matter what, no? Her goal is pretty pointless, especially after there are no corpses to bring back to life

She will keep a few alive and give them state issued GFs to make her more people to raise.
09/11/2018 10:34Posted by Teastra
09/11/2018 09:08Posted by Hallwell
All this talk about Sylvanas' need to kill all the humans so the Forsaken will endure. My question is, after she killed everyone, raised the entire kingdoms as the undead, what then? Surely they will wither away no matter what, no? Her goal is pretty pointless, especially after there are no corpses to bring back to life

She will keep a few alive and give them state issued GFs to make her more people to raise.


A society run by undead but filled with humans to help support the undead population=big brain tbh.
09/11/2018 09:08Posted by Hallwell
All this talk about Sylvanas' need to kill all the humans so the Forsaken will endure. My question is, after she killed everyone, raised the entire kingdoms as the undead, what then? Surely they will wither away no matter what, no? Her goal is pretty pointless, especially after there are no corpses to bring back to life


Really I think a better solution would've been to tell Anduin "Okay so if we don't get more people, we're gonna die out. So how about: Humans on their deathbed can volunteer to be raised and keep 'living' if they want?"

We've seen a few people by now be raised willingly into undeath so it's not a stretch to assume some people might go for it if given the choice. Trying to kill everyone and turn them ALL undead is a very short sighted plan since eventually all undead do start to crumble and lose their minds iirc.
Relatively brief world domination is a goal even if the conquered population rots away. There's the problem of the non-undead Horde taking issue but winning tends to redeem any figure and wash away "dishonour".

Then we've but to ignore the complexity of a damned humanity rising up against their killers in a massive forsaken civil war since all forsaken are so loyal and immediately eager to serve via Free Will(tm) because Blizzard certainly takes that route. Giving her subjects no hope but her is an established control mechanism.

Even characters like Voss who despises necromancers jumps in to espouse the belief that humans all deserve death because they fear the undead as reflections of inevitability.
Freedom is found in undeath's release from mortal concerns like morality and other such namby pamby nonsense. A "subjugated" humanity would then thank the forsaken as liberators by this logic which seems exactly the angle Sylvanas is going with.

Would the orcs still grumble about Honour in a post-Alliance world where they can travel, prosper and multiply with impunity (other than the blighted parts) or would Honour become an antiquated notion of ages past, its adherent being throwbacks to a dark age, ostracised for having stood in the way of progress and victory, ever having doubted the banshee queen?
The more I think about it, the more Player Forsaken seem like a long-term mistake that is going to come back and bite the story/lore in the rear, hard. Or, at least, this idea that they have to self-sustain and 'increase their population' rather than being a collection of the vengeful/restless dead is certainly going to, because they will ALWAYS end up being the antagonists against every other living race in that case.
09/11/2018 12:12Posted by Kaytlinne
because they will ALWAYS end up being the antagonists against every other living race in that case.


They wouldn't if people stopped trying to kill them.
Inb4 it is revealed that Alduin is the evil mastermind.
09/11/2018 12:30Posted by Elenthas
09/11/2018 12:12Posted by Kaytlinne
because they will ALWAYS end up being the antagonists against every other living race in that case.


They wouldn't if people stopped trying to kill them.
they should stop pretending to be alive then. >:D
09/11/2018 12:34Posted by Volren
Inb4 it is revealed that Alduin is the evil mastermind.


Well he is called "The World-Eater" for a reason.
09/11/2018 11:59Posted by Levey
Then we've but to ignore the complexity of a damned humanity rising up against their killers in a massive forsaken civil war since all forsaken are so loyal and immediately eager to serve via Free Will(tm) because Blizzard certainly takes that route. Giving her subjects no hope but her is an established control mechanism.


!SPOILERS! !SPOILERS!
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But this annoys me alot, and it makes so little sense. Because from what we've seen about the upcoming warfront, a couple of nelves soldiers who are raised by the forsaken -immidieatly- becomes ultra hostile against their kin and pretty much the second they stand up again shouts out "For the Horde! For Sylvanas!"

That isnt free will, that is scourge/lich king powers.
09/11/2018 09:08Posted by Hallwell
All this talk about Sylvanas' need to kill all the humans so the Forsaken will endure. My question is, after she killed everyone, raised the entire kingdoms as the undead, what then? Surely they will wither away no matter what, no? Her goal is pretty pointless, especially after there are no corpses to bring back to life


As bleak as it sounds, and is. Why would she kill everyone? Think the Sabbat from the White Wolf games. Why kill all the humans, when you could just farm them, allow them to keep having babies, and as long as you manage the population size, voila, a permanently sustainable source of new population.

Also, with regards the 'Arrow in my Quiver' phrase, Sylvanas uses it when alive as well as dead, and also, Alleria uses it. It seems highly likely therefore that it is just a Farstrider phrase, and not anything more sinister than that. I mean after all, it is a phrase in our real world relating to hunting and warfare, in very much the same way that we refer to a multi-talented person as having "more than one string to their bow". In fact I think 'Arrow in my Quiver' may even date back to the Bible, not sure, but it is a very old phrase, in English, and it does not imply callousness, lack of care or anything like that.
09/11/2018 12:47Posted by Vixí
But this annoys me alot, and it makes so little sense. Because from what we've seen about the upcoming warfront, a couple of nelves soldiers who are raised by the forsaken -immidieatly- becomes ultra hostile against their kin and pretty much the second they stand up again shouts out "For the Horde! For Sylvanas!"

That isnt free will, that is scourge/lich king powers.


There's an implication that elves raised by valkyr are given a choice pre-reanimation whether to come back or not. NElves who don't want to reject the offer and become vengeful wisps.

Meaning only those who pre-agreed to work for the Forsaken become Forsaken.

It's not mind control for god's sake. If Sylv could mind control people she resses like that she'd have a much easier time of things don't you think?
09/11/2018 12:43Posted by Elenthas
09/11/2018 12:34Posted by Volren
Inb4 it is revealed that Alduin is the evil mastermind.


Well he is called "The World-Eater" for a reason.


We'll need a Dragonborn class added, obviously.
09/11/2018 13:00Posted by Elenthas
There's an implication that elves raised by valkyr are given a choice pre-reanimation whether to come back or not. NElves who don't want to reject the offer and become vengeful wisps.

Meaning only those who pre-agreed to work for the Forsaken become Forsaken.

It's not mind control for god's sake. If Sylv could mind control people she resses like that she'd have a much easier time of things don't you think?


I still think this is pretty bad still though. why would a nelf soldier a few thousand years old who just up until their death fought against Sylvanas and the horde instantly be all ok with it post death? It is incredibly bad writing.

Mind control atleast makes some sense even if its still bad.
09/11/2018 09:08Posted by Hallwell
All this talk about Sylvanas' need to kill all the humans so the Forsaken will endure. My question is, after she killed everyone, raised the entire kingdoms as the undead, what then? Surely they will wither away no matter what, no? Her goal is pretty pointless, especially after there are no corpses to bring back to life


Really I think a better solution would've been to tell Anduin "Okay so if we don't get more people, we're gonna die out. So how about: Humans on their deathbed can volunteer to be raised and keep 'living' if they want?"

We've seen a few people by now be raised willingly into undeath so it's not a stretch to assume some people might go for it if given the choice. Trying to kill everyone and turn them ALL undead is a very short sighted plan since eventually all undead do start to crumble and lose their minds iirc.


lol
09/11/2018 13:10Posted by Vixí
09/11/2018 13:00Posted by Elenthas
There's an implication that elves raised by valkyr are given a choice pre-reanimation whether to come back or not. NElves who don't want to reject the offer and become vengeful wisps.

Meaning only those who pre-agreed to work for the Forsaken become Forsaken.

It's not mind control for god's sake. If Sylv could mind control people she resses like that she'd have a much easier time of things don't you think?


I still think this is pretty bad still though. why would a nelf soldier a few thousand years old who just up until their death fought against Sylvanas and the horde instantly be all ok with it post death? It is incredibly bad writing.

Mind control atleast makes some sense even if its still bad.


Yeah it makes no sense. On top of that, it's a random lore !@#-pull and does nothing but prove that Blizzard absolutely does not care about lore and lore consistency. They bend the lore to support what the story needs, they don't actually craft a story within their own universe, with all the rules and history that universe consists of. It's quite dumb low-effort stuff, really.
09/11/2018 13:10Posted by Vixí
I still think this is pretty bad still though. why would a nelf soldier a few thousand years old who just up until their death fought against Sylvanas and the horde instantly be all ok with it post death? It is incredibly bad writing.


Why would a NElf decide to side with the Twilight's Hammer? Or draenei side with the sargerei? Why did Fandral decide to side with Ragnaros and the rest of the Old Gods?

People switching sides is nothing new for "old races", and the above examples don't have the added twist of having a sudden traumatic experience (dying). I dunno why the idea that some NElves would prefer to come back as undead is surprising or "bad writing". They lived for potentially 10,000 years and now they're dead. Maybe they're still not ready for it to be over yet.

09/11/2018 13:10Posted by Vixí
Mind control atleast makes some sense even if its still bad.


Mind control would basically invalidate literal decades of forsaken lore.

So no, it doesn't make more sense.

09/11/2018 13:18Posted by Moburon
Yeah it makes no sense. On top of that, it's a random lore !@#-pull and does nothing but prove that Blizzard absolutely does not care about lore and lore consistency.


It's not a lore !@# pull. Sylvanas can raise elves during MoP.

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