Saurfang Mag'har and Draenei

Story
14/11/2018 12:43Posted by Northgrave
“Can your blood atone for genocide, orc? Your Horde killed countless innocents with its rampage across Stormwind and Lordaeron. Do you really think you can just sweep all that away and cast aside your guilt so easily? No, your kind will never change, and I will never stop fighting you.”


Erhmm yes, the blood of your people is the best way to atone for such.
Not to mention if the Alliance won't allow the Horde to Change and will always keep fighting them?
Why should the Horde try to change if it still all ends up in battle anyhow?

You see if you keep treating people as monsters, even when they try to not be monsters? They eventually just embrace being monsters and goes all out.
14/11/2018 16:26Posted by Durlan
You see if you keep treating people as monsters, even when they try to not be monsters? They eventually just embrace being monsters and goes all out.


Actually even Vereesa said that to her children...one of the few times she surprised me actually. That's still some good in her despite all that Alliance conditioning.
You are playing some sort of Void monster so of course that doesn't count as Thalassian Elf...indeed Void monsters are listed as aberrations..that's telling already :P

Hehehe your perception has changed quickly from "we're welcoming them back" to "they're monsters"

Works for me. In the end they will all serve.

Yes, I know you are just as bad as Arthas and Kel'thuzad after all :p

Mommy Alleria has already proven that her mere presence is damaging the well ;^)
imagine one of us jumping in there.

Arthas moonwalked right through there to rezz some random Necromancer.
We could top that by nuking the place with a pooldive xD

Truly EPIC!
14/11/2018 16:31Posted by Anouk
Hehehe your perception has changed quickly from "we're welcoming them back" to "they're monsters"

Works for me. In the end they will all serve.


They are indeed monsters, but even monsters can be redeemed if they want to (in RP, but hopefully soon in lore too)...like the Blood Elves of Kael'thas for example (some of them returned), or the old Horde for example. Or soon Sylvanas :p
14/11/2018 13:13Posted by Ikaallu
Okay, okay lemme rephrase - some Void elves are Horde sympathisers and I say that from experience. Hell they’ve even openly tried to have Alliance soldiers killed in plans in RP.


Just report any suspicious elf activity - night or void, doesn't matter - to the nearest Garithos fanclub. The lads there will know what to do.
14/11/2018 16:26Posted by Durlan
Erhmm yes, the blood of your people is the best way to atone for such.
Not to mention if the Alliance won't allow the Horde to Change and will always keep fighting them?


We allowed the horde to change after SoO. Didn't go very well.
14/11/2018 16:34Posted by Sylvianna
They are indeed monsters, but even monsters can be redeemed if they want to (in RP, but hopefully soon in lore too)...like the Blood Elves of Kael'thas for example (some of them returned), or the old Horde for example. Or soon Sylvanas :p

Blood Elves will surely be redeemed by the Human D
;^)

14/11/2018 16:35Posted by Northgrave
Just report any suspicious elf activity - night or void, doesn't matter - to the nearest Garithos fanclub. The lads there will know what to do.

Aeeehm..
I do count as "honorary Human" don't I?
Hail Grand Marshall Garithos!
14/11/2018 16:35Posted by Northgrave
Just report any suspicious elf activity - night or void, doesn't matter - to the nearest Garithos fanclub. The lads there will know what to do.


I belong to the cult of Greymane, but nothing makes me more sympathetic to Garithos then Sylvianna's posts.
14/11/2018 16:37Posted by Northgrave
We allowed the horde to change after SoO. Didn't go very well.


Because the Alliance is dumb...when an enemy faction or coalition is defeated in war, you don't just leave them alone...you HELP them rebuilding with a positive economical effort.

Ever heard of the Marshall Plan? That one who helped rebuilding Europe after WWII? That plan actually mellowed a lot of resentment that the Germans and the Italians still had against the Allies for the defeat.

When you win a war like in SoO, you must help the enemy, not just.. leaving and doing nothing like the Alliance did. Actually, they made it worse because Varian threatened the Warchief in his face. Of course that will create a lot of resentment and new hatred, especially in a savage/warrior society like the one of the Orcs.
14/11/2018 16:41Posted by Sylvianna
Ever heard of the Marshall Plan? That one who helped rebuilding Europe after WWII? That plan actually mellowed out a lot of resentment that the Germans and the Italians still had against the Allies for the defeat.


We gave you Azshara. Wasn't enough? You also kept most of the territories you conquered, what do you want, Varian serving you breakfast?
14/11/2018 16:42Posted by Araphant
We gave you Azshara. Wasn't enough? You also kept most of the territories you conquered, what do you want, Varian serving you breakfast?


That's not a Marshall Plan...Marshall Plan is about money, food and military help protecting the new borders, as a gesture of good will from the winners.

What good are lands if the hatred if the Horde can't safely control them and if there is still some hatred because the Alliance is not civilized enough like the USA helping the people they just defeated?
That's not a Marshall Plan...Marshall Plan is about money and military help protecting the civilians, as a gesture of good will from the winners.


You really don't know your history, do you? The Marshall's plan was the means to prevent the Soviet Union from spreading to the Atlantic, courtesy of the war-ruined economies of Europe.

It also conditioned the users in how the money shall be spent, and it also included some hefty political obligations.

So, no, it definitely wasn't a gesture of good will from the winners or any such bull!@#$.
Fact is, the USA did help Europe, even for their own benefits, they did something concrete. The Alliance just threatened the Horde, left with their highground intact (in the eyes of the Horde races that's arrogance) and didn't care anymore about the devastating loss they just inflicted to the pride and honor of the Orcs in SoO.

Of course there's going to be some consequence for acting recklessing like that..just like the Treaty of Versailles you know?
14/11/2018 16:53Posted by Sylvianna
The Alliance just threatened the Horde, left with their highground intact (in the eyes of the Horde races that's arrogance) and didn't care anymore about the devastating loss they just inflicted to the pride and honor of the Orcs in SoO.


No, the Alliance let the Horde keep most of their war-gains, with the only notable exception being Ashenvale. The Alliance also gave the Horde a clean slate. What more do you want? Economic support? We didn't even rebuild our own lands yet.

14/11/2018 16:53Posted by Sylvianna
Of course there's going to be some consequence for acting recklessing like that..just like the Treaty of Versailles you know?


Your lack of history knowledge keeps demonstrating itself. Did the Alliance limit the Horde's military to a token army? Were you forced to secede core economic territories? Were they forced to sign a humiliating surrender? You legit have no clue what you are talking about.

Fun fact, if we did what the winners did in the Treaty of Versailles, we would have dodged the War of Thorns easily enough.
No, the Alliance let the Horde keep most of their war-gains, with the only notable exception being Ashenvale. The Alliance also gave the Horde a clean slate. What more do you want? Economic support? We didn't even rebuild our own lands yet.


Horde is not going to be appeased by new lands (Night Elves technically had abandoned Azshara, also...at least since Illidan destroyed most of their villages there. So Tyrande had no right giving Azshara to anyone technically) when what they need is honor, pride and an economic effort to rebuild their own. Ceding lands to the ones who are defeated isn't going to change anything. It doesn't work like that for the Horde, the Alliance should know it at this point.

14/11/2018 16:55Posted by Araphant
Were they forced to sign a humiliating surrender?


A threat to the Warchief's face is pretty much close to that anyway...imagine the americans or the soviets capturing Hitler alive and mocking or threatening him...in his eyes there wouldn't be anything more humiliating than that which is pretty much the reason he committed suicide.
Horde is not going to be appeased by new lands (Night Elves technically had abandoned Azshara, also...at least since Illidan destroyed most of their territories there. So Tyrande had no right giving Azshara to anyone technically)


What? The night elves had outposts in Azshara. What's this about Tyrande not having the right to give Azshara to anyone? Who has the right? Me? She is the ruler of the night elven nation. What are you even trying to say?

Further more, you did so well in Azshara that Orgrimmar ran out of drinking water. Is that the Alliance's fault also? That you use the land until you ruin it?

14/11/2018 17:02Posted by Sylvianna
Ceding lands to the ones who are defeated isn't going to change anything.


You are right, we shouldn't have given you lands. No lands next time. Does that work? I honestly can not believe that you are saying that Varian's peace terms in SOO were unfair to the Horde. Jesus Christ on a cart-wheel.

Further more, you did not rebel against Garrosh because he did !@#$ty things to the Alliance. You rebelled against Garrosh when he began doing %^-*ty things to YOU!

14/11/2018 17:02Posted by Sylvianna
A threat to the Warchief's face is pretty much close to that anyway...imagine the americans or the soviets capturing Hitler alive and mocking or threatening him...in his eyes there wouldn't be anything more humiliating than that which is pretty much the reason he committed suicide.


I sincerely hope you are trolling.
14/11/2018 17:07Posted by Araphant
The night elves had outposts in Azshara. What's this about Tyrande not having the right to give Azshara to anyone? Who has the right? Me? She is the ruler of the night elven nation. What are you even trying to say?


Apparently they had villages there (Nendis?) but after they were destroyed by Illidan and the Naga the Night Elves never returned in force repopulating Azshara at least until the Horde and the Goblins moved in to colonise it in Cataclysm.

I mean in Vanilla there were close-to-none Night Elves in Azshara..maybe a couple but all the rest were animals, Naga, and possibly even Sunfury Blood Elves if I recall correctly. And Orcs of course.

That pretty much counts as abandoning a region. Night Elves either didn't want-or care- about Azshara anymore until the Horde actively started to take over it. But it was pretty much no man's land already until the Goblins moved in.
14/11/2018 17:13Posted by Sylvianna
Apparently they had villages there (Nendis?) but after they were destroyed by Illidan and the Naga the Night Elves never returned in force repopulating Azshara at least until the Horde and the Goblins moved in to colonise it in Cataclysm.

I mean in Vanilla there were close-to-none Night Elves in Azshara..maybe a couple but all the rest were animals, Naga, and possibly even Sunfury Blood Elves if I recall correctly. And Orcs of course.

That pretty much counts as abandoning a region. Night Elves either didn't want-or care- about Azshara anymore until the Horde actively started to take over it.


According to the RPG and Vanilla WOW, Azshara had a population of about 700 night elves and several outposts, including Talrendis point. That was eons before the goblin moved in.
Aren't the RPG non-canon, especially for population numbers?

But in any case, 700 is pitifully low for a region as big as Azshara, which is the reason they were almost absent from there in Vanilla...maybe nominally it was still part of the Kaldorei empire, but in fact it's pretty much abandoned...and if you leave something abandoned, then you can hardly complain if someone else takes over...at least in Azeroth...where might makes right :P
14/11/2018 17:18Posted by Sylvianna
Aren't the RPG non-canon, especially for population numbers?


We do not know if they are, further more, it does not negate the fact that night elves did have outposts.

14/11/2018 17:18Posted by Sylvianna
But in any case, 700 is pitifully low for a region as big as Azshara, which is the reason they were almost absent from there in Vanilla.


Darnassus has a population of about 900 people after a part of the evacuation efforts, so you tell me.

14/11/2018 17:18Posted by Sylvianna
and if you leave something abandoned, then you can hardly complain if someone else takes over...at least in Azeroth...where might makes right :P


It was not abandoned, and it was given to you. Not taken by might.

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