POST 1.12 ITEMIZATION, based on leaks!!!

Classic Discussion
25/10/2018 08:15Posted by Taxation
Before we continue we can agree that your reason for progressive itemization being stupid was stupid.


Can we now? Ok, let me try this. Before we continue we can agree that you admit that everything you said is wrong and I'm right. Oh, ok, let's go on, shall we?

No, we can't. You said "progressive itemization is stupid because items transform and people will ninja and horde". We agreed on that not being a big deal right? This is from you:
because it'll be a waste of time and perhaps you're right and the examples I can find are crap

How is that not admitting that the reason you gave is stupid?
And you're avoiding the comment you're quoting, despite insisting in your own comment that it's not a big deal, which, again, makes a temporary and overcomplicated "fix" entirely pointless.

Again no, I adressed the argument head on. All gear will get more powerful and that's a big deal. I've always said it's a big deal. What's not a big deal is the reason you provided, which you backed down from.
24/10/2018 19:38Posted by Strahnbrad
Dunno, really. I'd love to see Naxx event, but again this is the same question - what's with people who missed those unique events? Is this possible to re-run those events every year, for example?This is nonsense to make "full" Classic experience only within first two years and then leave it static anyway. This wouldn't be LEGACY in any sense.

i disagree.

having progressive content and itemization can be fun event to celebrate classic, and once progressive event is done (when naxx is released and naxx event done.) we can be left with static legacy server, just because there was an progressive event for classic, doesn't make the after event legacy any less or more legacy server ? so they don't contradict each other, first there is event, and then there is legacy.

just because there's progressive event for classic, wouldn't mean it can't stay as legacy server for everyone after the event.
Well if you look at it that way... makes sense.
But still depends on how much different progressive and post-progressive experience will be, considering that people are mainly making "hardcore gameplay" arguments and even demand changes to the game to fit their vision of vanilla endgame "hardcoreness".

I just thought - if Blizzard will want to follow this idea, they could release Classic november 2019, at anniversary - to align events with their historical dates, too.
1. The leak was done by attaching the 1.13 demo client to an existing private server. Since item stats are stored server side they mean nothing.
2. Even with R14 items in their post-buff state with the number of people after them they will still be extremely rare by the time guilds have progressed to the point of clearing Blackwing Lair.
3. Moving into AQ40, the Rank 14 weapons started to get dated. I remember that several of my guild mates stopped at Field Marshal because they knew they'd get PvE upgrades faster than doing that final push for Grand Marshal.
What do you guys think about my responses on the super long post on page 2?
If you are not replying to them, does that mean you agree with me and have nothing further to add or did you not read it ;P ?

To Strahnbrad that did reply to some of it:
I think you and I can agree to disagree. I have read everything you have said and I simply do not see it the same way. The potential outcomes you explain, I beg to differ on. I do however agree with this line fully:
25/10/2018 02:01Posted by Strahnbrad
or even more weird 100% accurate recreation of every small patch with all bugs and !@#$,

Obviously bugs, glitches and exploits should never be in the game. All I have been arguing for is the state of items, spells and raids and such. These are things that were changed deliberately as a design choice and philosophy, not because they were broken. At least most of them that is. They were also changed as a response to player interaction and new content. So some items were under performing and many items became too powerful in late stage of vanilla / in contrast to the beginning. I therefore see it as a problem, should we introduce these powerful weapons from the start of the game making many things too easy and broken. Suddenly you don't have to follow some mechanics, because you can outdmg certain timers and such. Suddenly you don't need to spend time in all kinds or odd dungeons and raids finding niche gear - because there exists a piece of awesome gear that removes all doubt of which is best...

Progression is a fundamental cornerstone of MMORPGS. Progression is not just about progressing through the story, unlocking new raids and changing as an epitome. It's about the journey. It's about overcoming the challenge in the present. It doesn't matter that we are gonna play a legacy server in which we know what content will be available or will be available at some point. What matters is experiencing the content in the way it was meant to be played. There is a video going in detail about what progression is and why it's important by Tips Out and although he primarily focuses on the leveling progression differences he still covers many of the elements we discuss here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yzrEFDgccI

In patch 1.8 they itemized weapon speeds. This means they changed the mechanics of instant attacks, and one of the explanations given in the patch notes is this one:
This change was not made to reduce the power of instant attacks, but to correct the relative imbalance of weapon itemization.

This quote is an acknowledgment of how fragile and impactful itemization is. We are now planning to go into Vanilla WoW with patch 1.12 and the path this follows with itemization from a different time period. If we do not carefully think about this, it will have dire consequences on our experience and the game as a whole.

The argument of what happens after Classic or when Classic is finished is completely void imo. Classic has not even been released yet so I find it ludicrous to even discuss what should happen after. We need to sharpen all our focus on the launch of the game and the first year of the game before anything else. No matter what we end up deciding after the end of Naxxramas or regardless of what Blizzard announces as their plans thereafter, we can always change that. Different time, different sorrow. What we cannot change is the start. If the launch is catastrophic and the first 6 months is a let down - it's game over.
24/10/2018 17:35Posted by Strahnbrad
24/10/2018 17:30Posted by Kyph
So I don't care if Warlord stuff is BiS as long as it fits the rest of the ecosystem; the mistake would be to nerf it now only to buff it later.

Well it's not BiS. Raw stats and lots of stamina ain't good for anything besides PvP, which makes sense. And farming ranks in greens and blues... gonna be weeks of constant frustration, good luck.


Some of the Warlord stuff however is BiS if it is the updated set at launch. The updated Warlord warrior shoulders are only slightly worse than the AQ40 shoulders for fury.

If you watch the Classicast interview with Nano from Nostalrius he also mentioned that they regret their mistake of releasing the upgraded blue PvP set as soon as they did because it invalidated drops from BWL. We had a lot of mages running around in 2p of the 58 PvP set and 2p of the 60 PvP set.

But there is also a screenshot of the lvl 58 PvP set in there. I don't think they will launch the 58 PvP set and the upgraded Warlord set. That just is a crazy powerspike.

In Vanilla we had the 58 PvP set till AQ. If you wanted to earn the lvl 60 blue set you had to rank again. Wasn't the Warlord set upgraded if you had it in that same patch? Sounds like they should just do it like this again.

As for the updated stats on items; I am ok with that. But the items that were added in later patches should be added later. There were just too many good blues introduces in later patches to let those be available at launch.
25/10/2018 11:23Posted by Deznorax
What we cannot change is the start. If the launch is catastrophic and the first 6 months is a let down - it's game over.


Try to remember how you perceive the launch is relative, it could be that the majority of people who 'dip' into classic will have never touched it before, these people won't care if these features were there from the start or not. They will take a look around, decide if it's fun and then choose whether it's something for them or not. I would even go as far as to say the majority of classic players never really read patch notes nor understood all the changes that went on between release and 1.12. I think it’s widely accepted most players were keyboard turning ‘noobs’ and were way more interested in the amazing scope and size of the world than how much dps/hps their character was outputting.

Whilst I am loathed to cite pservers as the shining example of what should be recreated by Blizzard they seem to have managed to attract both serious end game raiders and casual players, they generally all run a 1.12.1 base and beyond gating major raids/events are pretty static.

As someone who was there from launch I would love to see the game go through all the iterations up to the 1.12 state, but to assume that the game would be terrible if they adopt a more pragmatic snapshot or skills/talents and itemisation based on 1.12 would be unfair. Without all the progression changes it might be only a small percentage actually care about all these nuances – are you saying classic is just for these people?

I have said this before in another post, if we can have the release date earlier due to a more static approach to skills/itemisation I can live with that as long as they take a look at adjusting MC/Ony and BWL to compensate for the changes and ensure they are not irrelevant.
well, to be honest, i would personally prefer itemization to stay at 1.12, and release content only on progressive manner, but since item changes affects the difficulty of early content so drasticly, tuning needs to be done.

but ofcourse, that is a change, that "appearently" leads to "nothing" like vanilla, so go figure, that's why i'm also perfectly happy with progressive itemization because whatever certain item has 15 agi, 7 intelligence and 8stamina or just 22 agility and 8 stamina is not game breaking eitherway.
Time to burst some bubbles:
-You won't get a world first Kel'Thuzad kill. This has already been achieved by Nihilum back when vanilla was retail.
-There won't be any progressive itemization, so far all the news that has come out suggests the end goal is to create sustainable classic servers. You know what's not sustainable? Spending the first two years having an active dev team making tiny changes so that shadowcraft boots have 11 intellect at first then don't after a while.
-There most likely will not be progressive dungeon/raid content. Dire maul will be available from the start, Molten core/Onyxia/BWL/ZG will be available from the start. AQ40 and Naxx are still up for debate. But there's a high possibility the AQ opening event will be skipped and both raids will be available from the start.
-You won't be collecting your entire tier 2 set in Molten core. If you want itemization you should also want that.
-The game will both be really easy and really hard at the same time. What I mean by this is that for an individual player you don't want to pull more then a single mob at a time when leveling and early dungeons need crowd control. However progressive raiding guilds will take a week to level their characters, and then a month at best to get up to and clear Naxx.
-There is no cow level.
25/10/2018 06:02Posted by Dumac
What is the point of progression if you join the game 1-2 years after launch?


What's the point of a movie showing if you join it 3 hours late?

The answer is that there obviously is no point. Not for you. But there is a point for everyone who did join early enough to see it. That is what happened with the real Vanilla too. If you were too late you missed it. Doesn't mean that it wasn't worth doing.

All this assumes that Blizzard is only doing a single launch and then not touching Classic ever again once all the progression is done. That is possible of course but it's not something that we actually know.
25/10/2018 14:14Posted by Trajan
25/10/2018 06:02Posted by Dumac
What is the point of progression if you join the game 1-2 years after launch?


What's the point of a movie showing if you join it 3 hours late?

The answer is that there obviously is no point. Not for you. But there is a point for everyone who did join early enough to see it. That is what happened with the real Vanilla too. If you were too late you missed it. Doesn't mean that it wasn't worth doing.

All this assumes that Blizzard is only doing a single launch and then not touching Classic ever again once all the progression is done. That is possible of course but it's not something that we actually know.


Do you like playing other non-mmo games unpatched for that authentic experience?
So we start with 1.12 talents so every raid and dungeon will be a lot easier. Big difference on experience. If the gear also doesnt progress it will be a even bigger steamroll. Also for semi-decent guilds.

Not optimal but still cant wait!
I wouldn't read to much into these items until Blizzard confirms anything. I'm 100% raid content will be re-tuned so it is appropriately hard to complete.
25/10/2018 15:27Posted by Tjapp
So we start with 1.12 talents so every raid and dungeon will be a lot easier. Big difference on experience. If the gear also doesnt progress it will be a even bigger steamroll. Also for semi-decent guilds.

Not optimal but still cant wait!


Prior to the itemization patch you could enter dungeoms with 10 people. So the dungeons were actually easier.
25/10/2018 15:12Posted by Dumac


Do you like playing other non-mmo games unpatched for that authentic experience?


Yes, of course, you don't do it? In non non-mmo games is very easy and it is better to do it to enjoy the game, after all because those games you buy one time and that's it the developers does not usually add new content and the dont make changes that alter the original game except for releasing DLCs, and most of the time does DLCs are irrelevant for the main game narrative or you cant play it until completing the game.
Hey Snookiwooki, I like your post :)

You are correct in your viewpoint with the potential larger "casual" audience. But I don't see that being a problem in terms of issues such as itemization.
but to assume that the game would be terrible if they adopt a more pragmatic snapshot or skills/talents and itemization based on 1.12 would be unfair.

The game will in no way be terrible, but in my opinion it will be worse. Specifically the kind of worse that is more of an annoyance that could easily have been avoided.
25/10/2018 12:00Posted by Snookiwooki
Without all the progression changes it might be only a small percentage actually care about all these nuances – are you saying classic is just for these people?

Well no classic should be for the majority of course as is the case with everything in today's society. But I think you underestimate the amount of people that would actually care about this. Activities suggest that the core playerbase that will be playing classic is far more detail oriented and towards the "pro player" on the noob-pro player scale.
Regardless if we assume that the majority is ignorant and doesn't care either way is it then a problem? I think your question already contains the answer. If it's not a problem for the majority then why not cater to the minority that does care about something? If there is no harm in it then, yes I think they are obligated to do it. It would be a different story if the majority was against this, in which case I would accept that pill. Just like I have more or less accepted 1.12 talents since this seems to be the consensus among the majority, although I would have loved 1.1 first, just temporarily.
I have said this before in another post, if we can have the release date earlier due to a more static approach to skills/itemization I can live with that

Haha ;)
I think this is a personality thing. I like to consider myself a patient man, and I'll gladly wait another 6 months if it meant getting a better more complete game. But I completely understand you. I am burning up with frustration and built up hype not being able to play, every single day! Patience!
24/10/2018 17:00Posted by Deznorax
However Naxxramas is a server-side bound object and not a client one. So in fact you should not be able to see Naxxramas and the picture doesn't prove anything!!!
The pictures of the items however tells a far different story!

Items are also server-side though ;)

The client fetches the info from the server and then caches them locally. The serverside for those sandbox screen is obviously a pserver one. NOTHING except graphics, interface and static objects is representing how classic (demo) will be in those "leaked" screens and videos.

Edit: Only when the official classic demo servers are online you will be able to hop on them and fetch item data from an actual blizzard server. IF they bothered with items that are out of the level range of the demo!
26/10/2018 14:07Posted by Zerheilbert
Items are also server-side though ;)

The client fetches the info from the server and then caches them locally. The serverside for those sandbox screen is obviously a pserver one. NOTHING except graphics, interface and static objects is representing how classic (demo) will be in those "leaked" screens and videos.


Interesting... Are you sure though? It seems confusing that some of the items appear differently than you would expect in that case. The Icy Blue Mechanostrider Mod A, for one is showing the original tooltip version from 1.1. It's proven by requiring mechnostrider piloting (1), and i'm pretty certain that there isn't a single pserver that has ever had this be a thing. So this information couldn't possibly be linked to a pserver. I could be mistaken here, I don't know too much about these things. And the same with Baron Rivendare's mount being the original rare version which does not require riding as a skill. Again this seems like a conscious choice to have the item exist in this form, because it's not just an item that was changed later on but has a different ID. It's the same ID but changed unlike some of blue pvp gear pieces if you know what I mean. interesting tidbit: this original deathcharger was the rarest item in the game by far. And I think it might still be the rarest yet, with a theorized drop rate of 1/5000-1/10000. I know it was changed later, but if it weren't.
So keep dreaming ;P
I've no idea wether that's accurate or not but N...dale, L-Hope's newest server, has the old mount system with the specific riding skills and expensive mounts.

I don't know about the current state of patches on that server though but I do not believe it should have updated R14 gear yet, which I believe is showcased in the same video that showcases the Rivendare mount?
plz just stop whinning... So few will run around in Rank 14 gear anyway, most people proberly gonna go get some rank 8-10 pieces and stop.. i see no problem with pvp items being in its final form..

the only thing that can scare me, is if they have the nerfed version of MC.. because if items are in there buffed state many will outgear MC, and the mobs wont be immune to for example fire dmg, and not do fire dmg... i see np in items IF the raids are scaled after it... we need to see tanks and raiders needing fire ress gear to be able to clear MC.. els it would be a faceroll. sadly.

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