Ion's Blizzcon Q&A answer on RNG

General
Whenever the question is raised about RNG in the game, the answer Ion gives is always the same. Doesn't matter if its a web Q&A, text based, or at Blizzcon, this is the answer:

"RNG has always existed in the game, think back to Molten Core when you could be farming a boss for 6 months and never see that 1 bit of gear drop".

Which is totally true and correct.

However, I don't think Ion is understanding the frustration around RNG right now.
When you kill a boss and you know it can drop the item you want, you know what you need to do in game. If it never drops it, then that's just bad luck. Annoying at the time, but you eventually move on to another boss with probably a better bit of gear.

Currently the RNG system is layers of RNG on top of layers of RNG.
No longer is it "kill boss, get X item" (1 layer of RNG).
Now it is "complete m+, open chest, get an item from any boss in the dungeon, hope the personal loot system picks you this time and if it doesn't, hope your friend has a high enough ilvl they can trade, hope it warforges or titanforges, hope it has a socket, hope it has a tertiary stat, if you don't get the one you want, hope you get it from your weekly chest out of all the items from all the dungeons".
It's RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG.

I always used to look at the boss loot tables and drool over items, I knew every item by name and which boss it came from.
Now.....I haven't got a clue what drops where, I don't know any item names or where they drop, I just blindly go through the game waiting for a random chance at a titanforged item I can actually use with stats on it that aren't useless.
It gives me nothing at all to aim for apart from blind luck. It doesn't matter if I kill Mythic G'huun or if I complete a regular dungeon, the chances of me getting something I might actually want feels the same. And infact the chance of getting something I want feels higher from easier content because it can be done in less time, or repeated (m+).

To go back to Ion's original comment, I don't have an issue with RNG. It is the core of most RPG's; kill boss, get random loot.
What I (and clearly other people) have issue with is layers of RNG to the point where you no longer know or care where gear is coming from, eventually you will get some TF bit of gear that you can use, and it will probably come from LFR or m+0 instead of the current Mythic raid boss you are progressing on.
Those people who are designing the game are designing something that is inside their heads, not on live servers.
They have no idea what retail game feels like, they dont play it, they are stuck in 2008+ era and blame us that we dont want to play that which is in their heads a perfectly good and fun game to play.

Those people are delusional.

"You guys have phones, right?"
A similar example of this would be mount farming.

People know the LK drops invincible, so they keep killing him now.

If Invincible was a random chance to drop from any boss in the game and sometimes it was a walking mount and sometimes it was a flying mount, sometimes it was blue, other times it was red, sometimes you could use it, other times it was useless to you......do you really think as many people would care about it or bother trying to get it?
The thing is, however, that it's something on top of "Kill X, drop Y".

In essence, it also allows more items to exist within the end game. For example, under the old system, everyone would be locked in specific stats per slot; if you were to be a cloth user, Volatile Walkers would be your BiS feet. Don't benefit from crit/versatility? Tough luck buddy.

And that's ok for some and not ok for others. Sure. But can we please stop pretending that 395s from M0s and warfronts are a common occurence?
14/11/2018 09:41Posted by Leymaiden

But can we please stop pretending that 395s from M0s and warfronts are a common occurence?


395 from m0 and LFR might be an extreme example. But my current gear put me in a position that when I set foot in Mythic Uldir, I already didn't need anything from the first 5 bosses. We are now on Mythic Zul and it's the first boss I actually need something from.
When doing m+ there is nothing I need at the base ilvl from +10, for anything to be useful it HAS to WF or TF. So that's already RNG on top of the RNG of hoping it drops and the RNG of hoping personal loot awards me an item.

I am fairly well geared, but I couldn't tell you a single item's name that I am wearing or which boss it drops from. The end result is the same; I have gear. But the journey to getting it sucked.
Let me put it this way, RNG in dev's heads is different than RNG in the game.
14/11/2018 09:33Posted by Eleanory
Those people who are designing the game are designing something that is inside their heads, not on live servers.
They have no idea what retail game feels like, they dont play it, they are stuck in 2008+ era and blame us that we dont want to play that which is in their heads a perfectly good and fun game to play.

Those people are delusional.

"You guys have phones, right?"


those people are also a reason why WoW is making atm more $$$$ then ever before

so clearly they are doin something correcly
14/11/2018 10:41Posted by Lilîith
those people are also a reason why WoW is making atm more $$$$ then ever before

so clearly they are doin something correcly


Well no, because devs are not there to make money, but good games. And when it comes WoW, its not doing good at all. That is clear.

So perhaps those people should instead of focusing on how to make money, focus on how to make this game better, how about that?
The good 'ol days drooling over loot tables.

Now, I barely know what drops what.
I think the oldest form of the RNG we have now is Warglaives; knowing they both drop off Illidan, in Black Temple was one thing... but which one, if either of them, would drop...? Many players went months waiting before seeing either of them, then went many more months waiting for the second one, only to see a duplicate of the one they had drop again... even a 3rd or 4th time. By the time they had both, they never wanted to see Illidan ever again... let alone have him released from his prison/tomb to help us fight the Burning Legion, 8 years later...
It was said billion times already.

RNG on its own is good, fair and part of the game.

Problem is when you pile RNG upon RNG upon RNG.

Ok you wont drop 390gear from M0 every time, but first time you go LFR and drop 360/70 gear, instead of being happy you get annoyed because you didnt get 375 or 380 or at least socket on it.

This is messing with the game, with progression.
You can see it quite often, people who barely made 120 are already 350IL and they cant improve it, because upgrades come from difficulties they cant handle.

And exactly opposite problem comes with this.
During MoP timewalk I dropped trinket on my alt, that warforged to 345/350 (not sure right now) and that thing is literally the best trinket right now.
Nothing from uldir is better for me than that massive proc this thing gives me, so I am running around with blue, 3 expansions old trinket, just because .. well I dont even know why, who thought this nonsense is good idea.
14/11/2018 11:38Posted by Meristu
It was said billion times already.

RNG on its own is good, fair and part of the game.

Problem is when you pile RNG upon RNG upon RNG.

Ok you wont drop 390gear from M0 every time, but first time you go LFR and drop 360/70 gear, instead of being happy you get annoyed because you didnt get 375 or 380 or at least socket on it.

This is messing with the game, with progression.
You can see it quite often, people who barely made 120 are already 350IL and they cant improve it, because upgrades come from difficulties they cant handle.

And exactly opposite problem comes with this.
During MoP timewalk I dropped trinket on my alt, that warforged to 345/350 (not sure right now) and that thing is literally the best trinket right now.
Nothing from uldir is better for me than that massive proc this thing gives me, so I am running around with blue, 3 expansions old trinket, just because .. well I dont even know why, who thought this nonsense is good idea.


Well, people like you are the problem.

In your first point you complain that gear is made meaningless.

In your last you complain about a piece of gear which you got being TOO meaningful.

Whatever, Blizzard can't win with you bipolars so they might as well do whatever they feel like.

By the way, your last example isn't that different compared to how in TBC a rogue would never replace their gruul trinket. Even in Sunwell despite the ilvl difference. But whatever, let's say about how "the good ol'days were better and now progression is messed up" while the exact same situations happen under a different coating,
14/11/2018 12:01Posted by Leymaiden
14/11/2018 11:38Posted by Meristu
It was said billion times already.

RNG on its own is good, fair and part of the game.

Problem is when you pile RNG upon RNG upon RNG.

Ok you wont drop 390gear from M0 every time, but first time you go LFR and drop 360/70 gear, instead of being happy you get annoyed because you didnt get 375 or 380 or at least socket on it.

This is messing with the game, with progression.
You can see it quite often, people who barely made 120 are already 350IL and they cant improve it, because upgrades come from difficulties they cant handle.

And exactly opposite problem comes with this.
During MoP timewalk I dropped trinket on my alt, that warforged to 345/350 (not sure right now) and that thing is literally the best trinket right now.
Nothing from uldir is better for me than that massive proc this thing gives me, so I am running around with blue, 3 expansions old trinket, just because .. well I dont even know why, who thought this nonsense is good idea.


Well, people like you are the problem.

In your first point you complain that gear is made meaningless.

In your last you complain about a piece of gear which you got being TOO meaningful.

Whatever, Blizzard can't win with you bipolars so they might as well do whatever they feel like.

By the way, your last example isn't that different compared to how in TBC a rogue would never replace their gruul trinket. Even in Sunwell despite the ilvl difference. But whatever, let's say about how "the good ol'days were better and now progression is messed up" while the exact same situations happen under a different coating,


not supporting all he said but honestly you're a rare of complete nonsense. You're very close to jito in a way... scary, there might be even more... lurking out there for our brains... ghaaaa. ..

ANyway, getting a BIS from timewalking proc from a 3 xpac old content is not a meaningful way.
A meaningful way would be to farm a currency, mats, or downing very hard boss to obtain an item few could have and that this gear is not obtianable at this level of power without providing the very exact effort the first person to loot it had to deploy.
14/11/2018 12:01Posted by Leymaiden


Well, people like you are the problem.

In your first point you complain that gear is made meaningless.

In your last you complain about a piece of gear which you got being TOO meaningful.

Whatever, Blizzard can't win with you bipolars so they might as well do whatever they feel like.

By the way, your last example isn't that different compared to how in TBC a rogue would never replace their gruul trinket. Even in Sunwell despite the ilvl difference. But whatever, let's say about how "the good ol'days were better and now progression is messed up" while the exact same situations happen under a different coating,


Yeah because removing/changing titanforging definitely doesnt fix both these problems at once ...

Also you didnt have a chance to drop T6 from gruul and there wasnt chance to use T6 token from shaman to get T4 priest set piece ...
(Today I got 385 shoulders thats 15IL upgrade and they will go for disenchant because they are total downgrade for me)
14/11/2018 12:07Posted by Nim

A meaningful way would be to farm a currency, mats, or downing very hard boss to obtain an item few could have and that this gear is not obtianable at this level of power without providing the very exact effort the first person to loot it had to deploy.


Sorry, just because you say that farming currency or mats is more meaningful than timewalking doesn't make it true. Both are menial tasks which mostly involve time investment and not much else. They have less investment margin since they don't involve RNG, but they aren't anything hard.

Plus the fact that, you know, they are also adding such methods next patch through the azerite vendors so the possible methods are expanding.

However, that still doesn't make it true how some people try to spin that acquiring gear was vastly different in the past. Sorry, I don't miss the days of dropping 4 warlock tokens with no warlocks present nor do I miss being pushed into having like 2 stat combinations available per slot.
14/11/2018 11:03Posted by Eighjan
I think the oldest form of the RNG we have now is Warglaives; knowing they both drop off Illidan, in Black Temple was one thing... but which one, if either of them, would drop...? Many players went months waiting before seeing either of them, then went many more months waiting for the second one, only to see a duplicate of the one they had drop again... even a 3rd or 4th time. By the time they had both, they never wanted to see Illidan ever again... let alone have him released from his prison/tomb to help us fight the Burning Legion, 8 years later...


Yet people still farm for them because they know where they drop and it is a consistent chance at 1 level of RNG.

Do you think people will be farming for "titanforged helmet of the nobody uldir raider with a socket" in 10 years time? no, because its meaningless
14/11/2018 12:14Posted by Leymaiden
14/11/2018 12:07Posted by Nim

A meaningful way would be to farm a currency, mats, or downing very hard boss to obtain an item few could have and that this gear is not obtianable at this level of power without providing the very exact effort the first person to loot it had to deploy.


Sorry, just because you say that farming currency or mats is more meaningful than timewalking doesn't make it true. Both are menial tasks which mostly involve time investment and not much else. They have less investment margin since they don't involve RNG, but they aren't anything hard.

Plus the fact that, you know, they are also adding such methods next patch through the azerite vendors so the possible methods are expanding.

However, that still doesn't make it true how some people try to spin that acquiring gear was vastly different in the past. Sorry, I don't miss the days of dropping 4 warlock tokens with no warlocks present nor do I miss being pushed into having like 2 stat combinations available per slot.


or yeah, just that, let's screw logic

getting a random forge proc on a timewalking content (you cant even target it) is the same as farming the mats for hours for a bis item, yeah, one is rng out of nowhere, the other is dedication for a goal with a specific methodology .
No?

Okay, they're the same, someone randomly getting his BiS out of random bear !@# without even targetin it, on his way to do a random wq, gets an item with the same meaning than someone who gets an item after farming for hours specific things without rng, patiently.

Yeah, 100%

I'm afraid you have showed your true self now.

Vade retro.
Clearly Ion dont get that getting TF 40 ilvl above base lvl isnt rewarding/fun.

/givenup
14/11/2018 09:41Posted by Muserbravo
A similar example of this would be mount farming.

People know the LK drops invincible, so they keep killing him now.

If Invincible was a random chance to drop from any boss in the game and sometimes it was a walking mount and sometimes it was a flying mount, sometimes it was blue, other times it was red, sometimes you could use it, other times it was useless to you......do you really think as many people would care about it or bother trying to get it?
This has to be the perfect example of why the current rng is bad.
14/11/2018 12:27Posted by Tullemusa
Clearly Ion dont get that getting TF 40 ilvl above base lvl isnt rewarding/fun.

/givenup

I'm bit worried that it actually is, that the silent majority of casual players actually do increase their engagement whenever TF happens and this is showing in their data AND that's why Ion is so adamant about it. Horrible if this would be the case.

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