1.12 is not a "Vanilla experience"

Classic Discussion
06/11/2018 09:26Posted by Lurmi
But they are still keeping it, because it's authentic.

wrong.

They are keeping it because it would require complete overhaul to balance of the game as it would mess with meta game with unseen effects, they said it on stage.
06/11/2018 09:26Posted by Lurmi
In fact, one of their design philosophy is authenticity over good gamedesign. He said as much on stage.

you'll see what classic is going to be ^^

just watch addon section in panel, they are clearly saying that AUTHENTIC VANILLA would require that you can use addons SO POWERFUL that you can play the whole game pushing 1 button creating perfect rotation, healing, autotargeting, picking correct spell / rank automaticly etc.... all with 1 button.

they are not intrested in that because it goes againts their INTENDED ORIGINAL DESIGN, vanilla was NEVER designed to be played pushing 1 button, so they are cutting the authentic vanilla and replacing it with intended design, because that represents what vanilla was about far better than authentic vanilla ever could.

honestly, is people hearing what they WANT to hear or what is this nonsense ?
05/11/2018 19:59Posted by Lurmi
there's nothing wrong with old database in a modern client. They seem to be taking many steps to reproduce mechanics.
What's wrong is 1.12 mechanics. Ion mentioned how increasing debuff limit would affect the game too much by breaking class meta and so on. But 1.12 talent trees actually break it much more.


Thing is, having 16 debuff slots is breaking raids likes MC, ONY and BWL. Raids that already are relative easy compared to AQ and Naxx.
So anyone that played in 2006 never had a trve vanilla experience?

Me I started somewhere in the 1.7 patch, am I spoiled somehow in your opinion?
05/11/2018 20:04Posted by Lurmi
But when you talk about vanilla experience, than 1.12 is not a part of experiencing 90% of vanilla content.

Why, MC still was available in 1.12.
Unlike 'Vanilla 1.12 the game', the 'Vanilla experience' is too abstract thing to put so much effort trying to reproduce it. Anyway, I think Blizzard mentioned that they are gonna adjust raid difficulties because of this issue.
You can say what you want about playing from 1.1 onwards. I have done that on live and on the best private servers out there and can tell you right now if it was to be launched on 1.1 the pserver community would abuse the whole game to the point it would become unplayable.
what did you think they would do, wheel out a dusty old set of classic servers they just happened to be storing in some forgotten warehouse? This was the plan all along and you're a fool if you thought other wise
Whenever you replay a PC game, do you always start the game without patches because you consider that to be the true experience?
Whenever you replay a PC game, do you always start the game on an early patch because you consider that to be the true experience?
I once replayed Morrowind using earlier patch and without expansions, haha. But this was just a weird experiment.
06/11/2018 13:17Posted by Kamiklees
what did you think they would do, wheel out a dusty old set of classic servers they just happened to be storing in some forgotten warehouse? This was the plan all along and you're a fool if you thought other wise


This is a strawman. The argument is that they could use data from earlier patches of the game the same way they are using the 1.12 data. It wouldn't be using the same server hardware, or even software, just the numbers. Mostly it would matter with talents, items and debuff slots.
06/11/2018 13:21Posted by Dumac
Whenever you replay a PC game, do you always start the game without patches because you consider that to be the true experience?


Yes if some later content patch made the game far easier. I would indeed prefer to play the original as it was then, be it single player or not. It's just not something that happens very often outside of MMOs.

Honestly you guys are way off on this. You don't seem to grasp at all how significant these changes are. They absolutely trivialize content that was already pretty easy to begin with. But if you want to faceroll then sure...
OP, I am sorry for you and other that think like you.

Even before this year's Blizzcon, you were in the minority. But now, after Blizzcon, your minority shrank even more.

You main problem is that you are heavily uninformed. You don't know A LOT about original Vanilla.

Let me help you understand why you are in the minority, and why your minority is wrong.

First of all, the vast majority of original Vanilla players WERE NOT RAIDERS. Your argument that MC will be somehow faceroll because 1.12.1 talents, skills, gear and 16 debuffs, don't hold any water.

The hardcore raiding guilds will faceroll MC no matter what talents, skills gear and debuffs are in place.

The same applies to casual guilds. No matter gear, talents, skills of debuffs, the casual guilds WILL STILL STRUGGLE in MC.

Also, I hope you really know that MC is just ONE RAID, and it's the ENTRY raid. BWL, AQ 40 and Naxx will be OFF LIMITS for all casual guilds, no matter what. Casual guilds won't clear BWL, ever. They lack the discipline and commitment to do it. Why? Because they are CASUAL PLAYERS.

They will be stuck in MC, ZG and AQ20. Again, not because they lack the skills, or gear or talents, or debuff slots, but because they lack the discipline and commitment. And I am not saying like it's a bad thing. No. Casuals are casuals BECAUSE they do not want/afford to be as disciplined and committed as hardcore players are.

When Classic will be live, because it will run on the modern infrastructure, guild progression will be tracked on WoWprogress and other sites. You will see that 70% of the guilds will not be able to clear BWL, and you will understand my arguments.

As for Vanilla-like experience vs Vanilla authenticity, you are delusional. We CANNOT HAVE Vanilla authenticity, and to be honest, a copy/paste of 1.1 to 1.12 will be a disaster today, not to mention that Blizzard doesn't have the data to work with.

Blizzard is DELIVERING Classic...NOT VANILLA. Please understand that. They CANNOT offer a 100% Vanilla authenticity, but they can offer a Vanilla-like experience, which is heavily based on COMMUNITY and PLAYER INTERACTION.

And they are delivering that. Raiding in Classic is almost IRRELEVANT for most people that will play Classic. Only hardcore raiders are the ones who consider raiding the best part of Classic (I am one of the hardcore raiders btw.)

But we, the hardcore raiders, understand that talents, and skills, and gear and debuffs slots play a MINOR ROLE for our progress.

Yes, we will clear raids sooner and faster on a 1.12.1 base patch...but we would clear those raids ANYWAY, just a tad later and slower. It really makes no difference for us, the hardcores.

But for the casuals? Oh boi...if CLassic would start on 1.1, casuals will leave the game on droves...and NOBODY wants that.

Even with 1.12.1 as a base, casuals won't be able to go past BWL, but at least they WILL CLEAR MC. And ZG. And AQ20. They will have enough CONTENT to do to keep them in game...and EVERYONE wants that.

But at least buff those damn bosses. If you don't have authentic raid progression ANYWAY - at least make it authenticly difficult.


I am sorry, but this will not happen. Because it will be for nothing. The hardcores will still clear all raids, no matter what, but the casuals won't even be able to clear MC for a very, very long time, if bosses are buffed.

And BWL with buffed bosses will be a graveyard for casual guilds. Unbuffed, some of the casual guilds will be able to at least kill 2-3 bosses in BWL on a reliable time frame.

A 1.12.1 base for Classic is the best we could hoped for, and Blizzard is delivering it.

Anything else, outside being impossible, or needing 2-3 years from now on to redesign and implement, is also a very dumb option.

Almost nobody wants 1.1 - 1.12.1 copy/paste. For OBVIOUS REASONS.
06/11/2018 13:32Posted by Trajan
06/11/2018 13:21Posted by Dumac
Whenever you replay a PC game, do you always start the game without patches because you consider that to be the true experience?


Yes if some later content patch made the game far easier. I would indeed prefer to play the original as it was then, be it single player or not. It's just not something that happens very often outside of MMOs.

Honestly you guys are way off on this. You don't seem to grasp at all how significant these changes are. They absolutely trivialize content that was already pretty easy to begin with. But if you want to faceroll then sure...


Trivial content like the 10 man dungeons? Something they capped to 5 people with the intention of making them more difficult later in the game.
06/11/2018 13:28Posted by Trajan
06/11/2018 13:17Posted by Kamiklees
what did you think they would do, wheel out a dusty old set of classic servers they just happened to be storing in some forgotten warehouse? This was the plan all along and you're a fool if you thought other wise


This is a strawman. The argument is that they could use data from earlier patches of the game the same way they are using the 1.12 data. It wouldn't be using the same server hardware, or even software, just the numbers. Mostly it would matter with talents, items and debuff slots.


I know you think I'm straw manning but honestly have you seen this forum over the past year? rolling out a legit vanilla server with vanilla client is pretty much what the most staunch #nochanges guys have wet dreams about in here.
06/11/2018 13:32Posted by Trajan
Yes if some later content patch made the game far easier. I would indeed prefer to play the original as it was then, be it single player or not. It's just not something that happens very often outside of MMOs.Honestly you guys are way off on this. You don't seem to grasp at all how significant these changes are. They absolutely trivialize content that was already pretty easy to begin with. But if you want to faceroll then sure...

and honestly trajan, you and everyone else who's going berserker drama about 1.1 talents vs 1.12 talents are just sugar coating the "difficulty" of early content, the hardest part was
a) time commitment
b) getting 40players to commit that time.

i have said this before, and i say this again, the guild i started to raid with, let's see what we had :
- no meta specs on anyone, this is a fact because meta's was just starting to form, they didn't exist, everyone played the game on world rules, not raid rules, they didn't care about efficiency in raids, they cared about outside world and how can they pwn that pesky rogue the best, or atleast escape his wrath, no one used dps meters etc to track their efficiency.

- no meta rotations / skill efficiency, i was a resto druid who used moonfire on every mob and boss i encountered, Warriors used rend, healing priests used shadow word pain, no one downranked any skill, mages used their instant cast spells etc.... again this kind a goes to meta gaming slot.

- no one used consumables other than bandages and on rare occasions, fireres potion the guild leader and officers begged people to bring, and in most occasions it was usually group of people who farmed the !@#$ out of these potions to hand out to the majority who didn't bother.

- gear was crap, people was using random gear, with wrong stats on them, they usually sold all the "bad green items" with + healing / dmg on them, and use that random blue they found on dungeon with +20 stamina and +10 spirit, because it's blue yknow ?

- content and the whole freakin game was new, no one knew what to do, where to find reliable information and tactics, not to mention problem making all 40 people to read and grasp these tactics.

- no world buffs, no one cared.

- only enchanters having some random enchants on gear.

now, with raid like this we we're able to progress and clear moltencore before BWL was launched, the moltencore is piss easy, and if you look the world first ragnaros kill on YouTube, you see what i'm talking about, barely anyone having any consumables, no world buffs, random debuffs appearing on boss on already Limited 8 debuff slots ETC, and this was the best guild in the world at the time, our guild was waaay below this one and we still managed to progress.

so what i'm trying to say here ?

1.1 talents VS 1.12 talents doesn't MEAN AS MUCH in terms of difficulty as people make it out to be, does it affect something ? yes, does it make such a difference that we should have broken 1.1 state of the game inplace ? no ! Whatever it's 1.1 or 1.12 talents, guilds like i mentioned above is still finding difficulty in moltencore, guilds that uses meta game and consumables, finds it piss easy content no matter is it 1.1 or 1.12 talents.

personally ? i would prefer 1.12, 16debuff and no other progression than content, and tune early content accordingly, you know, to the point where i can raid with guild i mentioned above.
I hope they at least remove stealth nerfs like magmadar flames, raggy flames, cthun tentacle burst damage etc. So many guilds were able to defeat the encounters cause blizzard just retuned everything while it was active. That's why we see 10 guilds all of a sudden defeating a boss in Naxx just after a patch that claimed no nerfs to the boss. That's not even retuning that's just rebuffing the content.
There is this super weird thinking here that guilds and players are either full on hardcore private server pros with 100% preparation or casuals with next to no preparation.

And so because only these two extremes exist you argue that the content need only be made to suit their needs, and not to match Vanilla. Meaning that difficulty is meaningless for the hardcore and just right for the casuals with 1.12 changes, and that there is nothing in between. It's a fantasy made to fit your agenda.
05/11/2018 19:43Posted by Lurmi
Not gonna say much else.
You promised to bring back vanilla experience. Instead you are bringing back Nostalrius and other pirate realms experience.

Running a 1.12 client/talents/abilities is by default very far from Vanilla wow. 1.12 is a great patch, when you have already raided MC/BWL/ZG/AQ20/AQ40... But if you have not - it's an awful decision.

Your talents and abilities are stronger
Class balance is completely different
Gear that was revamped in 1.6 (I believe it was that patch?) is 1.5 to 2 times stronger than that was available in 1.1

In the end of the day, you come to MC and steamroll through it in 1 night.
And yeah, I realize that with modern knowledge it would be cleared faster anyway.
Having a 1.12 patch data equals making 90% of vanilla content experience non-authentic, and only Naxxramas will be up to date with the vast changes that happened during the original patch cycle.

I hope this can be addressed. And the only truly authentic way is bringing back 1.1 talents and data.
But at least buff those damn bosses. If you don't have authentic raid progression ANYWAY - at least make it authenticly difficult.

That's my feedback for the entire Classic panel.

No one has sources of what every patch of pre-1.12 WoW had and what it did not.

Nost or Elys versions of 1.4, 1.5 and 1.6 based on 1.12 client were NOT AT ALL vanilla, they made a lot of assumptions and own decisions which had nothing to do with true vanilla experience.

If you want Blizzard to replicate custom pirate servers, obviously it won't happen. 1.11 and 1.12 are the first reliable and stable patches. And that's what Blizzard are going for.
06/11/2018 16:39Posted by Trajan
And so because only these two extremes exist you argue that the content need only be made to suit their needs, and not to match Vanilla. Meaning that difficulty is meaningless for the hardcore and just right for the casuals with 1.12 changes, and that there is nothing in between. It's a fantasy made to fit your agenda.

you really didn't understand what i was saying, do you ?

if the change in difficulty is so small, that neither "hardcore" nor "casual" players can notice any difference in difficulty, what makes you think mediocre guilds can ?

yes, 1.12 talents is making the content easier, but not as much as people make it seem, and i never said "oh screw everyone inbetween!", i have always said that early content should be retuned for 1.12 talents, wich means very small and careful tuning, and if there is some invidual skills that generate way too much threath for example(and let's be honest, balance issues like this would be most glaring towards difficulty also), then mayby simulate this invidual skill instead of making it 1.1 patch all over again.
06/11/2018 18:07Posted by Cai
06/11/2018 16:39Posted by Trajan
And so because only these two extremes exist you argue that the content need only be made to suit their needs, and not to match Vanilla. Meaning that difficulty is meaningless for the hardcore and just right for the casuals with 1.12 changes, and that there is nothing in between. It's a fantasy made to fit your agenda.

you really didn't understand what i was saying, do you ?

if the change in difficulty is so small, that neither "hardcore" nor "casual" players can notice any difference in difficulty, what makes you think mediocre guilds can ?

yes, 1.12 talents is making the content easier, but not as much as people make it seem, and i never said "oh screw everyone inbetween!", i have always said that early content should be retuned for 1.12 talents, wich means very small and careful tuning, and if there is some invidual skills that generate way too much threath for example(and let's be honest, balance issues like this would be most glaring towards difficulty also), then mayby simulate this invidual skill instead of making it 1.1 patch all over again.


It was equally targeted at Recollector. I didn't wish to quote either of you specifically because of the length of both posts. But yes, people in between can notice things that especially the hardcore might not, because difficulty is more appropriate for them.

It's not just the talents. It's talents, debuffs and items combined. Now I am fine with retuning as a compromise, or I should say that it won't ruin the game for me or anything, but that's not the sentiment that everyone is putting forward here. People are legitimately supporting nerfing Classic through buffing the players. That is entirely against Vanilla.

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