1.12 is not a "Vanilla experience"

Classic Discussion
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06/11/2018 20:42Posted by Cai
06/11/2018 20:40Posted by Trajan
Changing your mind is when something is not working as you want it to work

indeed.

and i don't need to provide you any further evidence :) blizzard decides what is vanilla's intended design from this point onwards.


Now this is a dodge because you are only quoting a part of what I said. I guess it makes sense for you since you consider every part, no matter how small, to be equal to the whole. Thank you providing that example.
06/11/2018 20:45Posted by Trajan
I guess it makes sense for you since you consider every part, no matter how small, to be equal to the whole. Thank you providing that example.

it depends, if that small part is what developers intended and rest is just deleted trash that was objectively, historically removed from the game not accessible anymore ever again, then yes, i do equal that small to the whole.
06/11/2018 20:55Posted by Cai
it depends, if that small part is what developers intended and rest is just deleted trash that was objectively, historically removed from the game not accessible anymore ever again, then yes, i do equal that small to the whole.
Developers' intentions change over time.
1.1 talents and builds were exactly what developers have intended. Later their philosophy changed, and they began tweaking things.

If you only take the latest version of developers' intent as the only True intent, and discard everything else as "objectively the devs found it lacking", then by all means - we should play Classic with BFA talents and specs.

There's no single unified "intended" version of Vanilla. Vanilla, and actually WoW in general is an ongoing thing that constantly changes and develops. And this change is an integral part of reproducing the original experience, as best as it could be. Or at least it should be.

Sadly, Blizzard seem to be aiming to reproduce Nostalrius and other pirate servers rather than Vanilla WoW.

p.s. reading this thread, I firmly believe that Cal is so stubborn because he's a druid, and pre-1.11 they sucked.
08/11/2018 12:38Posted by Lurmi
Developers' intentions change over time.1.1 talents and builds were exactly what developers have intended. Later their philosophy changed, and they began tweaking things.

nope.

they have intended something, and if it doesn't work as a whole in the game, or it causes something developers doesn't like, then it's not working as they foresaw or intended.

give me example or reason why would developers change something that's working exacly like they want as a whole part of the game, and are 100% happy about it.

tweaking falls in the same category, it's just smaller, it almost works like they want, but it needs tweaking to make it just right.
08/11/2018 12:38Posted by Lurmi
If you only take the latest version of developers' intent as the only True intent, and discard everything else as "objectively the devs found it lacking", then by all means - we should play Classic with BFA talents and specs.

and now you're just comparing apples with oranges, they don't even have the same developers ;D

each expansion is it's own game, they don't consider previous installments when developing a NEW game, that's the reason why we're having classic.

you just fall in the same category as trajan, you want to tell me that each patch and change during vanilla is all part of intended progression, but it's not.

you want to tell me that developers sits down in their meeting room talking like this : "we need to make druids feral and balance tree absolutely useless when compared to restoration on launch, it's part of our intended progression table to later balance different specs !"

fixes are not content progression, stop trying to mix them as such, when current wow developers are balancing the game, they only think about BFA balance because that's the game they work on, not vanilla.
08/11/2018 12:38Posted by Lurmi
Sadly, Blizzard seem to be aiming to reproduce Nostalrius and other pirate servers rather than Vanilla WoW.

again the same useless argument... "1.12 is not vanilla !!!".

it is, sorry if you don't like that patch, but thank god blizzard is picking the most complete and working version of vanilla.
Even at patch 1.12 all the content in Vanilla is relevant to that version of the game. It's not like joining WoW in 7.3.5 and skipping all the raids other than Antorus. You had to do all the raids to access the next one, you had to do the dungeons to get the right gear.

I think the only issue is that you could have an easier time running Molten Core with people that may have Naxx gear, as well as popular figures being able to crowdsource gold and items to progress quicker (Asmongold said he would do his first 1-60 + the raids without any trades or opening any mail in order to combat this issue).
05/11/2018 20:15Posted by Mécéliniah
Hello,

For me, your comment makes no sense...

If you purchase an old car, would you complain it has a seatbelt while you wanted the "good old 40' experience"?

We just don't want the crap added in all the expansions, don't push the #nochanges that far - 1.12 is still vanilla and those changes were added for a reason... It's based on community feedbacks. Starting from 1.1-6 would absolutely makes no sense at all. Why would we want a lesser polished version and then wait for updates to have things fixed? Genuinely asking.

All the best
+1 to that.
Some people take this "no changes" thing way too far. 1.12 is stil vanilla and like you said all the changes are made for a reason. Who wants server crashes/immense lag/absolutely broken classes or abilities etc... when they KNOW they will get patched IN vanilla?

We're already getting gated progression like raids and events like opening of the AQ gates and even the NAXX event! Do you guys really want to look forward to "getting my much needed class revamp in vanilla"? that would take up much more dev time and would cause confusion.
08/11/2018 15:31Posted by Deveon
05/11/2018 20:15Posted by Mécéliniah
Hello,

For me, your comment makes no sense...

If you purchase an old car, would you complain it has a seatbelt while you wanted the "good old 40' experience"?

We just don't want the crap added in all the expansions, don't push the #nochanges that far - 1.12 is still vanilla and those changes were added for a reason... It's based on community feedbacks. Starting from 1.1-6 would absolutely makes no sense at all. Why would we want a lesser polished version and then wait for updates to have things fixed? Genuinely asking.

All the best
+1 to that.
Some people take this "no changes" thing way too far. 1.12 is stil vanilla and like you said all the changes are made for a reason. Who wants server crashes/immense lag/absolutely broken classes or abilities etc... when they KNOW they will get patched IN vanilla?

We're already getting gated progression like raids and events like opening of the AQ gates and even the NAXX event! Do you guys really want to look forward to "getting my much needed class revamp in vanilla"? that would take up much more dev time and would cause confusion.


I definitely want to relive class revamps. I want to relive vanilla not something that never happened during vanilla i.e molten core as the first raid in 1.12. It's not so hard to understand I think?

Everything is very mapped out in 1.12 and it would be nice to actually go back and play earlier iterations where nobody knows whats up and down or what specs are actually good. Like no elemental precision for mages makes frost bad since arcane actually has +%hit in its tree. So arcane mages > frost mages. Fury warriors w/ dual wield would be bad and you would have to go slam w/ 2h I guess.

All of that stuff is fun. Having to rediscover and redo the vanilla stuff that happened back in the day. You know, reliving the old wow.

Seems like a lot of people agree that the earliest version of AV should be in and I feel the same way about the rest of the game. It got easier and easier and it loses a lot of the charm that way. That's not just a seatbelt imo.
09/11/2018 10:03Posted by Chargem
08/11/2018 15:31Posted by Deveon
...+1 to that.
Some people take this "no changes" thing way too far. 1.12 is stil vanilla and like you said all the changes are made for a reason. Who wants server crashes/immense lag/absolutely broken classes or abilities etc... when they KNOW they will get patched IN vanilla?

We're already getting gated progression like raids and events like opening of the AQ gates and even the NAXX event! Do you guys really want to look forward to "getting my much needed class revamp in vanilla"? that would take up much more dev time and would cause confusion.


I definitely want to relive class revamps. I want to relive vanilla not something that never happened during vanilla i.e molten core as the first raid in 1.12. It's not so hard to understand I think?

Everything is very mapped out in 1.12 and it would be nice to actually go back and play earlier iterations where nobody knows whats up and down or what specs are actually good. Like no elemental precision for mages makes frost bad since arcane actually has +%hit in its tree. So arcane mages > frost mages. Fury warriors w/ dual wield would be bad and you would have to go slam w/ 2h I guess.

All of that stuff is fun. Having to rediscover and redo the vanilla stuff that happened back in the day. You know, reliving the old wow.

Seems like a lot of people agree that the earliest version of AV should be in and I feel the same way about the rest of the game. It got easier and easier and it loses a lot of the charm that way. That's not just a seatbelt imo.

It's super sad that we're already seeing the same arguments used by people wanting classic server before they were announced, but now based on what patch to start with in Classic.

I'm sorry to say but yes, it is hard to understand why you'd want that back. Maybe YOU would like your classes broken or stuff that just wasn't viable for any reason, to KNOW that in x months it was going to get revamed anyway. It's also delirious to expct this from a dev's point of view. If that would be the case you'd see lots of posts here like "omg my class is so broken why didn't you give us the revamp now??"
Not starting with 1.1 talents, makes this just as good as a private server experience, it's not an authentic vanilla experience, it's a recreation of the last patch with some tweaks, the earlier content will be much easier than what it was intended, I still have a bit of hope that they'll do this proper (with the correct talent progression from 1.1 to 1.12) but it seems less likely by the day.
09/11/2018 10:20Posted by Deveon
I'm sorry to say but yes, it is hard to understand why you'd want that back. Maybe YOU would like your classes broken or stuff that just wasn't viable for any reason, to KNOW that in x months it was going to get revamed anyway. It's also delirious to expct this from a dev's point of view. If that would be the case you'd see lots of posts here like "omg my class is so broken why didn't you give us the revamp now??"


1.12 is not devoid of broken either so I don't see your argument? If we go with 1.1 to 1.12 at least we will have a few different viable specs as we go and it's a lot more authentic. And if anything this is a trip back in time and 1.1-1.12 is the time frame of vanilla. Not the last months only.
09/11/2018 10:33Posted by Chargem
09/11/2018 10:20Posted by Deveon
I'm sorry to say but yes, it is hard to understand why you'd want that back. Maybe YOU would like your classes broken or stuff that just wasn't viable for any reason, to KNOW that in x months it was going to get revamed anyway. It's also delirious to expct this from a dev's point of view. If that would be the case you'd see lots of posts here like "omg my class is so broken why didn't you give us the revamp now??"


1.12 is not devoid of broken either so I don't see your argument? If we go with 1.1 to 1.12 at least we will have a few different viable specs as we go and it's a lot more authentic. And if anything this is a trip back in time and 1.1-1.12 is the time frame of vanilla. Not the last months only.
Until we actually reach patch 1.12 in "real time" and then what? A decent build with all classes already at their "peak" so to speak is imo better to start with, instead of having every bug and broken thing in game from the start.

Let's agree to disagree, I see your point but I just don't have the same opinion.
09/11/2018 12:59Posted by Deveon
09/11/2018 10:33Posted by Chargem
...

1.12 is not devoid of broken either so I don't see your argument? If we go with 1.1 to 1.12 at least we will have a few different viable specs as we go and it's a lot more authentic. And if anything this is a trip back in time and 1.1-1.12 is the time frame of vanilla. Not the last months only.
Until we actually reach patch 1.12 in "real time" and then what? A decent build with all classes already at their "peak" so to speak is imo better to start with, instead of having every bug and broken thing in game from the start.

Let's agree to disagree, I see your point but I just don't have the same opinion.

to say that 1.12 talents are not broken, is retarded
09/11/2018 13:17Posted by Shebinka
09/11/2018 12:59Posted by Deveon
... Until we actually reach patch 1.12 in "real time" and then what? A decent build with all classes already at their "peak" so to speak is imo better to start with, instead of having every bug and broken thing in game from the start.

Let's agree to disagree, I see your point but I just don't have the same opinion.

to say that 1.12 talents are not broken, is retarded
Less broken might be a better term maybe.
09/11/2018 10:22Posted by Shebinka
Not starting with 1.1 talents, makes this just as good as a private server experience, it's not an authentic vanilla experience, it's a recreation of the last patch with some tweaks, the earlier content will be much easier than what it was intended, I still have a bit of hope that they'll do this proper (with the correct talent progression from 1.1 to 1.12) but it seems less likely by the day.


If that happens, I fully expect you to roll a 31 pt survival hunter or druid until revamp, otherwise it's pretty hippocritical.
I think that's starting at 1.12 is fine. Anyway they CAN'T do from it from 1.0.
They don't have source anymore and it'll take so much time of work.

But the fact that 1.12 is not the true vanilla experience is totally right too.
I'm a no change but they need to adjust things to recreate the old experience feeling. Leveling will be nearly the same but end game won't.

Itemization will take too much time of work and knowing that stats will improve later, will make people wait with items till it's upgraded

The only way to create a good end game experience is stats tunning of trash and boss. It doesn't take a lot of time to do so and will make it feel more "authentic" even if not totally the same. (changing strat of boss is not good and a REAL change).

For example : More HP&DPS : longer fight = oom = death if not properly geared even if you know how to do IT perfectly you can't fight against stats.

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