Loot trading and server reputation

Classic Discussion
After following the loot trade discussion it seems to me that many a folk forget that reputation also applies to groups. Player reputation is always evoked in regards to a single player ninja looting but suddenly if a group of guildies or friends are the perpetrators nobody can do anything about it and vile ways will spread thru Classic like a plague. Just as you can blacklist a person you can also blacklist a guild. Bigger guilds that only run guild groups anyway pose no threat to the puggers and smaller ones that need randos should be dissuaded from shady occurrences lest they be ostracized. Instead of risking such a fate why would not this group of loving guildmates merely state that the item they seek is reserved? Seems to me a method far simpler than the clandestine attempts at adumbral chicanery.
You don't need to be forgetful to realize that loot-trading will come with changes to how loot will be handled by pugs and the community. Player reputation isn't some magical thing that everyone on the server instantly become aware of.

10/11/2018 16:09Posted by Kiranda
Bigger guilds that only run guild groups anyway pose no threat to the puggers and smaller ones that need randos should be dissuaded from shady occurrences lest they be ostracized.


Wrong. If a group of 8~ guildies have two warriors that both need lets say the ring from mara for pre-bis, they will make two groups with a warrior in each in order to optimize their chances. Each pug in each of those groups will potentially be rolling against 4 other people.

10/11/2018 16:09Posted by Kiranda
Instead of risking such a fate why would not this group of loving guildmates merely state that the item they seek is reserved?


Because they might happen to need a pug in that moment to fill a slot. Reserving puts people off.

10/11/2018 16:09Posted by Kiranda
Seems to me a method far simpler than the clandestine attempts at adumbral chicanery.


It might seem so to you, but people like to take shortcuts, we're wired to take the path of least resistance, if you mess with that the game WILL change.
You assume that it would always be a pre-planned event of targeting an item. In practice it will usually be a couple friends doing a dungeon and realizing it on the spot.

But really we can't of course know exactly how it will play out. It just seems insane that this is even being risked. Blizzard is assuming that this change to looting will have no consequences. That waiting 4 days for a GM to change the ownership of a drop is exactly the same thing in practice as trading freely in all content. It's the type of thinking that has brought us BfA one step at a time.
10/11/2018 16:51Posted by Trajan
You assume that it would always be a pre-planned event of targeting an item. In practice it will usually be a couple friends doing a dungeon and realizing it on the spot.

But really we can't of course know exactly how it will play out. It just seems insane that this is even being risked. Blizzard is assuming that this change to looting will have no consequences. That waiting 4 days for a GM to change the ownership of a drop is exactly the same thing in practice as trading freely in all content. It's the type of thinking that has brought us BfA one step at a time.


+1
If you come into a fkn group with awesome gear you don't have the right to roll on any rare gear at all. Ban epicly geared players from Stratholme. Get badly geared green guys instead who will roll on everything. That way it'll be fair. You guys are all a joke. This is no problem. It's idiotic. Anyone who reasons it will be a problem is a moron.

The only reason it is bad is because it wasn't in Classic and maybe that's enough.
10/11/2018 16:45Posted by Bumkin
Player reputation isn't some magical thing that everyone on the server instantly become aware of.


Exactly. Yet single player ninja looting isn't commonplace. That's the discrepancy I'm trying to point out.

Wrong. If a group of 8~ guildies have two warriors that both need lets say the ring from mara for pre-bis, they will make two groups with a warrior in each in order to optimize their chances. Each pug in each of those groups will potentially be rolling against 4 other people.


In which case the guild in question could be considered small and they would be risking their reputation.

Because they might happen to need a pug in that moment to fill a slot. Reserving puts people off.


Only if the item in question happens to be something the pug also wants. I've been in plenty of "reserved" groups if the item was of no interest to me.

10/11/2018 16:45Posted by Bumkin
It might seem so to you, but people like to take shortcuts, we're wired to take the path of least resistance, if you mess with that the game WILL change.


Some people like to take shortcuts, sure, but what matters more is the consequence of taking such shortcuts. Again, I'm asking why it is that singular players don't seem to be taking those shortcuts but supposedly groups will when the consequence is exactly the same.
I really havent looked the changes up yet but will loot trading really be affected by the server reputation? i mean once its needed or given to a player and that player trades it to someone else you wont see if he traded it. So all they would have to do would be equip an worse item for the targeted item slot need the item and if they win it trade it to their friends. nobody would know he actually has better or the same gear in their bag already.

The best thing we can do is wait and see how it turns out. If it turns out a problem maybe blizz will remove that change, if not then players got to pay extra attention to such kind of thing i guess.

Honestly i'd rather see someone ninja it for their friend than some hunter literally needing everything including casters and tanking gear
10/11/2018 16:51Posted by Trajan
You assume that it would always be a pre-planned event of targeting an item. In practice it will usually be a couple friends doing a dungeon and realizing it on the spot.

But really we can't of course know exactly how it will play out. It just seems insane that this is even being risked. Blizzard is assuming that this change to looting will have no consequences. That waiting 4 days for a GM to change the ownership of a drop is exactly the same thing in practice as trading freely in all content. It's the type of thinking that has brought us BfA one step at a time.


Sure. But why aren't singular players ninja looting all the time but supposedly groups would? There are opportunities all the time; I could sell that item, I could use that item; I could use that item later or in a different spec etc. That's the question I'd like an answer to.
10/11/2018 18:25Posted by Kiranda
10/11/2018 16:51Posted by Trajan
You assume that it would always be a pre-planned event of targeting an item. In practice it will usually be a couple friends doing a dungeon and realizing it on the spot.

But really we can't of course know exactly how it will play out. It just seems insane that this is even being risked. Blizzard is assuming that this change to looting will have no consequences. That waiting 4 days for a GM to change the ownership of a drop is exactly the same thing in practice as trading freely in all content. It's the type of thinking that has brought us BfA one step at a time.


Sure. But why aren't singular players ninja looting all the time but supposedly groups would? There are opportunities all the time; I could sell that item, I could use that item; I could use that item later or in a different spec etc. That's the question I'd like an answer to.


You kind of answered the question yourself. None of those opportunities are "direct upgrade on main spec". Which would be the one that your friend has. And helping a friend feels less like a ninja and more like being a good friend. Shared responsibility is also a real thing. Regular people are not comfortable lighting cars on fire by themselves but as part of a mob it happens.
10/11/2018 18:37Posted by Trajan
10/11/2018 18:25Posted by Kiranda
...

Sure. But why aren't singular players ninja looting all the time but supposedly groups would? There are opportunities all the time; I could sell that item, I could use that item; I could use that item later or in a different spec etc. That's the question I'd like an answer to.


You kind of answered the question yourself. None of those opportunities are "direct upgrade on main spec". Which would be the one that your friend has. And helping a friend feels less like a ninja and more like being a good friend. Shared responsibility is also a real thing. Regular people are not comfortable lighting cars on fire by themselves but as part of a mob it happens.


By "I could use that item" I did mean that it would also be an upgrade but whatever. I think that's a fair point; feeling like a good friend and sure shared responsibility is a thing. But it doesn't make it right and I would argue that people who torch cars with others are generally quite likely to misbehave on their own as well and/or are driven to such acts by extreme circumstance, thus I doubt that loot trading would suddenly "corrupt" large parts of he otherwise supposedly morally sound playerbase. I surmise at the end of the day it comes down to the scruples of the millions (and millions) of Vanilla fans, if Blizzard indeed intends to implement it.
My experience across multiple pine games leads me to believe that if you're being an !@#$%^- within a community, even in a way that s allowed by the game, the community will find ways to police themselves. For example, people were running centralized ban lists for Dota, and wasting 30 minutes due to a leaver inconveniences somebody way less than wasting a couple of hours due to ninja looting.

It obviously won't protect everybody, as some people will just be oblivious to such lists, but that's just 'natural selection' :)
10/11/2018 21:28Posted by Kiranda
By "I could use that item" I did mean that it would also be an upgrade but whatever.


That's not a ninja then :)
10/11/2018 18:25Posted by Kiranda
Sure. But why aren't singular players ninja looting all the time but supposedly groups would? There are opportunities all the time; I could sell that item, I could use that item; I could use that item later or in a different spec etc. That's the question I'd like an answer to.

answer to question "i could sell that item"
scenario a) it's bind on pickup, the ammount the item will sell on vendor is so low that it's not worth ninjalooting.

scenario b) it's bind on equip and valuable item, it is happening, ninjalooting on these happens all the time on vanilla and on pirate servers, there is always that "one" person in group complaining that he "needs" that item for him even if rest of group wants to group roll for it because it's worth of lot of gold, and tries everything in his power to get that item from others, and if he manages to do that, he puts it in AH himself, then there is group with no set rules, and others puts "greed" and then this one guy pushes "need" even if he can't use the item.

answer to question "i could use that item"

well that's not ninjalooting if he can put it in use ? is it ?

the thing is about loot Trading, that it changes the social structure of loot handling of the game, there is no consequences on pushing need anymore on group content.

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