why Warforge and titanforge in m+ Destroys raiding

Dungeons & Raids
You can literally get the best gear in the game with 380-390 ilvl trough M+ warforging and titanforging which are not even hard and are usually done in zombie mode,
without even stepping a foot inside a Raid, What is the point in spending hours and hours of time in a Mythic Raid wiping and progressing when doing a 30-40 min 5-man
DUNGEON is more rewarding and holds better items.
Once upon a time Raiding was the core of the game and had the best gear and unique items in the game.
nowadays you can log in do your M+10 for the week and maybe you get an item and maybe its warforge or titanforged then log out and wait for reset, log in and get a Free Guaranted 380++ Item same ilvl as mythic Raid from the magical chest. with only 40 min of game time per week.
I'm kind of sad that warforge/titanforge probably won't be leaving the game anytime soon since Blizzard really wants to make mythic+ a reliable way to obtain high-end gear. If there wasn't any forging, or even if it was capped, then they would either have to increase the baseline that mythic+ gives (which would make getting gear from mythic+ too easy) or just make it so mythic+ isn't worth doing at all if you're looking for items that could rival mythic raid gear.

In my honest opinion, they should drop the idea of making mythic+ an alternative to mythic raiding and just focus on cosmetic rewards instead, and make a +10 reward heroic raid level gear for example (which it does, but without titanforging!). They could still keep the weekly mythic+ box though.
I like M+. Why am I forced to spend 9-12 hours per week in raid with my guild? Who has time to sacrifice 3 days per week, every week? I don't even like raiding but I need gear if I want to push high keys.

And OP... as you say you can get 385 in M+, you can get ilvl 400 in raids with same titanforge.
Sorry but I totally disagree with the op. So you think that only those who raid should have a chance of the best gear? And M+ is easy?

Not everyone has the time to raid or wants to raid. Mythic+ is an alternative and it’s certainly not easy at the higher keys - the ones that reward the best loot.

For those that don’t raid for whatever reason it provides another element, a challenge, something to work at to obtain good gear, it’s no cakewalk.
19/10/2018 03:26Posted by Blameful
You can literally get the best gear in the game with 380-390 ilvl trough M+ warforging and titanforging which are not even hard and are usually done in zombie mode,
without even stepping a foot inside a Raid, What is the point in spending hours and hours of time in a Mythic Raid wiping and progressing when doing a 30-40 min 5-man
DUNGEON is more rewarding and holds better items.
Once upon a time Raiding was the core of the game and had the best gear and unique items in the game.
nowadays you can log in do your M+10 for the week and maybe you get an item and maybe its warforge or titanforged then log out and wait for reset, log in and get a Free Guaranted 380++ Item same ilvl as mythic Raid from the magical chest. with only 40 min of game time per week.


I have never seen and I'll never see someone that stops raiding because of M+ gear.

Jesus, some of you are just helpless.
I do think that M+ rewards too high ilvl gear for the difficulty rn. All they would need to do is just make a level 12 give you the 370ilvl gear or something like that. Having M+ a chance to give mythic level gear is fine since at high enough level it becomes harder than mythic raiding. Ofc raiding and M+ is two way different things.
I've never liked TF/WF. The system itself are horrible. If they want a upgrade system to "emphasis" on redoing content over and over again they should just add currency for such endevours. Was it Mists of Pandaria that had the +ilvl upgrade system trought tokens... Hard to remember it was quite some time back at least.

They should just add some sort of system for upgrading gear is my point. Every gear drop should be capped: If it's 370 in heroic, you could upgrade the item maybe lets say 3 times for a steady amount of increasing currency, making the items potential max ilvl 385. Hc raids will then be capped at mythic raid ilvl.

Mythic raid gear will then have max cap of (385+15)400 and the mythic chest will be (380+15)395. Maybe also add a means to add sockets and a choosen random stat, maybe by using professions... tbh they need something more to craft. Tailoring could craft sockets for cloth, LW for leather, BS for plate, JC for jewelery etc. then also the little fixit upgrade for speed, leech and w/e.

Then if people love to do content over and over again to farm a resource to upgrade for example a BiS ring or w/e, they simply can do that. It's not like casual players will be burdened by a system for deep end game and will eventually be able to upgrade anyways If they make it a farmable resource from multiple sources(myth+, raids, WQ, PvP, Expeditions). In the end the gear still have to drop and content be done, but it's no longer a lottery to the same extent.

However some players feel they have no agency over gearing, a system were they can target specific stuff whould help this and it whould remove frustration over that the piece who dropped didn't TF and came without a socket... or it's a TF that you cant trade due to Ilvl restrictions.
Go to wowprogress. Find the top 1000 ilvl players in the world. Show me the ONE guy that has done no mythic raiding. Show me the one in the top 10,000 that has done no raiding at all.

The point of doing mythic progress for hours and hours is the achievements that last forever not gear that lasts for a few months.
I am casual, but I also think that this WF/TF system isn't helping the game!
U spend hours of wipes in raid for prestige...not for gear. M+ is the same, everyone who is pushing high keys doesnt do it coz of gear.

There are countless people paying 200-250k for +10 to just get a weekly, so tell me pls, how are m+ ez? and why they shouldnt give a some real reward (which is capped on 370)
People who wants to raid can not find enough online at raid hours and rage at m+ players. If a person does not want to raid or dont have time for raids, Which is 3 nights 3-4 hours they wont be doing raids.
If people dont have other choice they will quit game , they wont be forced to play raid. So stop flaming on m+.
Tf happens for every item from every source. Not special for m plus. Even without titanforged it gives 370, then some people would say, i like raid , dont want to do m plus, please reduce m plus ilvl reward.

Once you clear mythic raid correctly then do the same every week. Mythic plus affixes changes every week.
Last note: if you wipe a lot in raid it also causes toxic environment, people just hold themselves because they know each other. Otherwise it is worse than m plus
So your idea is... If i want to push highest possible keys, i should raid mythic (even if i don't like raiding at all) to be competative?
Great idea man... the fact that they made gear important in m+ (unlike old CM) was bad enough for competative play. Please don't make it worse by proposing this nonsense.
19/10/2018 14:37Posted by Evilmuu
I like M+. Why am I forced to spend 9-12 hours per week in raid with my guild? Who has time to sacrifice 3 days per week, every week? I don't even like raiding but I need gear if I want to push high keys.

And OP... as you say you can get 385 in M+, you can get ilvl 400 in raids with same titanforge.


With one minor difference.

One is on a weekly lockout, the other is not.

19/10/2018 14:42Posted by Cerruti
Sorry but I totally disagree with the op. So you think that only those who raid should have a chance of the best gear? And M+ is easy?

Not everyone has the time to raid or wants to raid. Mythic+ is an alternative and it’s certainly not easy at the higher keys - the ones that reward the best loot.

For those that don’t raid for whatever reason it provides another element, a challenge, something to work at to obtain good gear, it’s no cakewalk.


M+10(highest loot atm) is not even on par with Mythic Taloc. And he is already really easy. It IS kinda stupid for content like that to reward better gear in the weekly chest. Same story with warfronts dropping 370+WF/TF chance.
People comparing a +10 to mythic raiding must not be doing either one of those or they wouldnt say idiotic things like that. I have been doing 17-18 keys and they still dont get close to progression raiding.
Thats why stuff like r.io is so neccessary at the moment. Because everyone can get 375+ by doing worldquests, emissarys, warfronts and a weekly. Ilvl is just completely devalued because of it.

And while m+ is easier than mythic raiding on a personal level already, the organisatory aspect of mythic raiding adds a whole other layer that isnt even a thing for m+ which you can easily pug.

Some boosting groups are boosting 2 DPS at the same time through 10's for the weekly. If 3 people can boost 2 for such high rewards you really cant tell anyone its too hard. Thats just complete nonsense.
You could literally spam them 24/7 for Titanforges. They offer a way bigger variety in stats on certain pieces and pretty much everyones BiS offpieces are going to drop in dungeons.

People just want free loot for trivial content to do their worldquests faster. Yikes.
19/10/2018 14:42Posted by Cerruti
Sorry but I totally disagree with the op. So you think that only those who raid should have a chance of the best gear? And M+ is easy?

Not everyone has the time to raid or wants to raid. Mythic+ is an alternative and it’s certainly not easy at the higher keys - the ones that reward the best loot.


Yes, the m+ difficulties that you need to receive the best gear it can give, is easy. Might vary a bit depending on the weekly affixes and on the dungeon you run, but getting a key to +10 is very easy no matter what affixes/dungeon and you don't even have to complete the +10 in time to get its loot.

ANd while raiding is not mandatory to do high keys, doing high-end raiding does indeed require quite a bit of m+, because just doing weekly reclears of the raid do not yield enough gear on its own. Not to mention, that the best azerite traits and trinkets for pretty much everybody come from mythic+ azerite pieces. Mostly you just take one of the uldir traits for the weekly buff and the rest you take better traits from other pieces. (Yes, yes, weekly chest only, bla bla bla.)

So we have one content, in which you progress like 10 hrs or more total real life time for a single boss, that is only killable once per week, while after that one kill potentially not even going back there, because your raidlead decided, that extending the ID is more important, because you want to be done with progression, so you don't even get to rekill the boss, and one content, that can be spammed over and over again, for which you need..let me just check some of my more recent runs, that we didn't boost someone.... 30 - 40 minutes and even when done multiple times, still yields loot to you. Everytime with the chance of titanforging to oblivion and having the chance of dropping not only a wider variety of useful items, but also the overall better items.

Now i don't know about you, but to me this does not sound like an "alternative" for a pure raider, who has no interest in mythic+ ....
The past two posts pretty much sum up the situation like I see it also and I would add the rated PvP route to this aswell, which is ok too. So you can gear up in different ways, but they are not equal in time spent or difficulty in any way and thats the problem, added with the wf/tf aspect!

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