This week boosted 90% of the bad players to 1.7k

Dungeons & Raids
(Edit: Sorry, I meant 90% of the people that were, say ~1.1k before these 2 weeks)

And that's just brutal.

I go into 16-17s keys with people genuinely not knowing what to do and how things work, they know the major things, but that's about it. You can, no kidding, tank & spank your way to 1.7k this week or last week without any issues.

There's genuinely absolutely no difference between 1.2k and 1.7k by the way it looks.

Why does this matter? Because now M+'s become just a hellhole. The free weeks and free gear lifted people from "poverty" into a worse state.

Some people called me negative. How can one not be? When you see someone being 1.7k and not knowing basic things like movement, cc focus and priority targets, not communicating at all and overall just not knowing when to push what.

This is a sentiment shared by many people I talk to, it's so crushing.

So, how do you fix this?

Affixes / weeks need to be more equal and not allow people to skip important tactics, especially on trash.
I think it's nice to have a little variation in affix difficulty. When you're having to deal with particularly nasty affixes like Fortified + Teeming, or Greivous, then having an easier set of affixes the following week gives you something to look forward to - A little bit of hope and light at the end of the tunnel.

And, it's not my intention to belittle your point at all, it's obviously something that's very important to you and maybe some others, but I think saying 90% of players are at +16's/+17's might be a little off. Personally I'm not an elite player, but I don't think I'm a bad player, and I've never met or talked to anyone doing anywhere near that high since BFA released.
rofl 90% of the players easy to 16-17 XD

you are delusional XD
While I agree with Hunho that the problem is exaggerated, there is no doubt that some weeks are easier than others. This week is particularly easy in my opinion compared to the last 2 weeks.

However, balancing the affixes to make them the same difficulty isn't going to solve the problem. The problem is that players aren't given the opportunity to learn anything useful until they get into M+. In both random heroics and mythic 0 players are usually overgeared and crush the content, ignoring the mechanics and learning nothing. This means that players go into M+ knowing very little and getting surprised when mechanics start 1-shotting them.

Until Blizzard stop showering players with gear and encouraging high ilvl players to run low gear content, the situation will only get worse and worse as time goes on.
Wow, and you're only 1.6k. Literally 90% of the players are better than you if they are all at 1.7k!!!

Or do I sense a little hyperbole from your posts as usual?

I don't actually recall the last thread you made where you didn't prostrate yourself at the altar of raider.io
I can just picture your sneer as you type their names into the website to see if they pass your elitism test. Ewww. This is what M+ has become for some people. It's a bit sad.
13/11/2018 20:52Posted by Midnightfist
While I agree with Hunho that the problem is exaggerated, there is no doubt that some weeks are easier than others. This week is particularly easy in my opinion compared to the last 2 weeks.

However, balancing the affixes to make them the same difficulty isn't going to solve the problem. The problem is that players aren't given the opportunity to learn anything useful until they get into M+. In both random heroics and mythic 0 players are usually overgeared and crush the content, ignoring the mechanics and learning nothing. This means that players go into M+ knowing very little and getting surprised when mechanics start 1-shotting them.

Until Blizzard stop showering players with gear and encouraging high ilvl players to run low gear content, the situation will only get worse and worse as time goes on.


I think there's some interesting points here.

It's true that Heroic Dungeons, and at this point Mythic 0 offers very little challenge and teaches people little. Maybe it would help to have challenging Dungeon content without the pressure of a timer - Where the challenge is in wiping, learning and progressing through as a team, rather than stressing out and raging over a single mistake.

At the same time though, I don't think it's a high priority for Blizzard to be making sure that the players signing up for +16/+17 Mythics in PuGs are as skilled as a third-party's AddOn rating suggests they might be. If you've got enough time in-game to gear up and be running that level of content, then you have more than enough time to try and make friends with other like-minded players, unless you have a toxic attitude.
Agreed.

I hate that there is 2 or 3 weeks in these "BfA Seasons" when you can actually push keys. On other weeks you are playing multiple levels lower.

I abused the first push week. Tyr/Teeming/Volcanic. I didn't bother with this one.

I understand that it's hard to balance affix combinations, but this is not fun at all. Playing like a mad man for a week and doing close to nothing for the next 5.
Or you can disregard m+ score and go after other criteria that suggest players are good, like most intelligent players already does.

If you stop thinking so much of the score and just focus on gathering good players for your run you will have a better time. You also shouldn’t show so publicly how highly you think of yourself just because of your m+ score. Why does it bother you if others are at the same score as yourself?

If I wanted to have 2k r.io score I would, but there is no incentive. Instead I sit at 1.1k, do my weeklys on all my alts, sell raid boosts and would likely decline you to my m+ pug run because your raid progress tells me that bringing you could cause us problems.
14/11/2018 02:24Posted by Kieftilt
Or you can disregard m+ score and go after other criteria that suggest players are good, like most intelligent players already does.

If you stop thinking so much of the score and just focus on gathering good players for your run you will have a better time. You also shouldn’t show so publicly how highly you think of yourself just because of your m+ score. Why does it bother you if others are at the same score as yourself?

If I wanted to have 2k r.io score I would, but there is no incentive. Instead I sit at 1.1k, do my weeklys on all my alts, sell raid boosts and would likely decline you to my m+ pug run because your raid progress tells me that bringing you could cause us problems.


What other criteria can we use if we can't rely on Raider.IO or ilvl? Raid progression? You can be a mythic raider and have very little clue about M+.
13/11/2018 21:54Posted by Mímí
13/11/2018 20:52Posted by Midnightfist
While I agree with Hunho that the problem is exaggerated, there is no doubt that some weeks are easier than others. This week is particularly easy in my opinion compared to the last 2 weeks.

However, balancing the affixes to make them the same difficulty isn't going to solve the problem. The problem is that players aren't given the opportunity to learn anything useful until they get into M+. In both random heroics and mythic 0 players are usually overgeared and crush the content, ignoring the mechanics and learning nothing. This means that players go into M+ knowing very little and getting surprised when mechanics start 1-shotting them.

Until Blizzard stop showering players with gear and encouraging high ilvl players to run low gear content, the situation will only get worse and worse as time goes on.


I think there's some interesting points here.

It's true that Heroic Dungeons, and at this point Mythic 0 offers very little challenge and teaches people little. Maybe it would help to have challenging Dungeon content without the pressure of a timer - Where the challenge is in wiping, learning and progressing through as a team, rather than stressing out and raging over a single mistake.

At the same time though, I don't think it's a high priority for Blizzard to be making sure that the players signing up for +16/+17 Mythics in PuGs are as skilled as a third-party's AddOn rating suggests they might be. If you've got enough time in-game to gear up and be running that level of content, then you have more than enough time to try and make friends with other like-minded players, unless you have a toxic attitude.


I would love to do M+ dungeons without the timer, as having a time limit seems to do more harm than good. Players lose their minds over it and do the craziest things just to beat the timer. The ironic thing is more often than not in their rush to beat the timer, they overextend and cause a wipe which loses them more time.
14/11/2018 02:24Posted by Kieftilt
Or you can disregard m+ score and go after other criteria that suggest players are good, like most intelligent players already does.

If you stop thinking so much of the score and just focus on gathering good players for your run you will have a better time. You also shouldn’t show so publicly how highly you think of yourself just because of your m+ score. Why does it bother you if others are at the same score as yourself?

If I wanted to have 2k r.io score I would, but there is no incentive. Instead I sit at 1.1k, do my weeklys on all my alts, sell raid boosts and would likely decline you to my m+ pug run because your raid progress tells me that bringing you could cause us problems.


Is this a lowkey "r.io" doesn't matter? Because it does. While I exaggerated my post a bit in the sense that there's no difference between 1.1k and 1.7k, in fact, objectively speaking, there is a difference, from my experience, it's small but there is. R.io score still matters and while it might not matter to you (just as it doesn't matter to me, I invite someone that has alot of runs on a key, not score). It really does.

There is no "make your own group", the problem I talked about is that now you can no longer tell who's either good or bad, so you end up destroying most keys.

The welfare gear / affixes boosted people to the point of no return and the little enjoyment I had in this game is now donezo.
There's actually m+ communities/discords you could join, alternatively you can add people and/or join a guild that focuses on m+.

I'm not saying you should boost people that have no idea what they're doing - BUT if you're actually serious about pushing keys you should invest some time forming connections/finding a way to avoid using r.io because it is, inevitably, a bad measurement tool (partly for the reasons you mention).

I can understand why you'd be frustrated but if keys stayed at the same difficulty they would stagnate faster than they actually have. Your issue just seems to be that you're pugging - the solution to this will always be ONLY one, and that's just getting out of the pug world.
14/11/2018 04:45Posted by Destísar
There's actually m+ communities/discords you could join, alternatively you can add people and/or join a guild that focuses on m+.

I'm not saying you should boost people that have no idea what they're doing - BUT if you're actually serious about pushing keys you should invest some time forming connections/finding a way to avoid using r.io because it is, inevitably, a bad measurement tool (partly for the reasons you mention).

I can understand why you'd be frustrated but if keys stayed at the same difficulty they would stagnate faster than they actually have. Your issue just seems to be that you're pugging - the solution to this will always be ONLY one, and that's just getting out of the pug world.


Your points are valid....in theory.

The M+ communities that are out there, that I've also been part of for a long time have nothing happening. The bad people, naturally, want to join your +16 key even if they've done only a 13. The good people already have keys, so you're left with just the "meh". So, you'll get whispers, just not from the even close to right people.

Thing is, even tho I have a few consistent people I do keys with, here's the biggest problem:

All it takes is one person to !@#$ up and the key is over annnnnd usually, we don't have a 5-man premade online at all times, in fact, barely, so it's very hard.

All you can do is pug and hope for the best, really, but it's getting beyond frustrating.

You can't do M+ without pugging, as I said, people are rarely online all at the same time and, frankly, everyone else is doing keys with others, so it's a rotation of people. You have to pug, you do.
I still dont get why ppl are so after score. When i look for pug ppl i just look at the 2-3 highest keys.
People that did every dungeon at +10 are values more then ppl who timed a 14/15 key and only did some on +6 it seems.
13/11/2018 20:52Posted by Midnightfist
While I agree with Hunho that the problem is exaggerated, there is no doubt that some weeks are easier than others. This week is particularly easy in my opinion compared to the last 2 weeks.

However, balancing the affixes to make them the same difficulty isn't going to solve the problem. The problem is that players aren't given the opportunity to learn anything useful until they get into M+. In both random heroics and mythic 0 players are usually overgeared and crush the content, ignoring the mechanics and learning nothing. This means that players go into M+ knowing very little and getting surprised when mechanics start 1-shotting them.

Until Blizzard stop showering players with gear and encouraging high ilvl players to run low gear content, the situation will only get worse and worse as time goes on.


I am not so sure about that. This may sound ironic but there's a lot of things to do in this game. And maybe not all of us can do all the things and know every strat of every trash mob and focus / cc priority by heart.

I mean you have the casuals, which are not necessarily bad players btw, you have hardcore raiders, M+ dungeon raiders, PvP bois, Alt men, Achievement chasers, Mount farmers, etc... The list is endless. The most dedicated players probably do all of this, but I don't think that the average players get time to do more than 2 or maybe 3 of those activities.

The hardcore PvP boi is certainly a good player, he may be even doing HM guild raids twice per week. But if he didn't spend much time doing M+ he will piss off M+ dungeon raiders, because at high tier, that 5 man dungeon becomes more challenging and requires more knowledge than a classic raid.

♦ So unless you lock away certain M+ tiers behind achievements gained through strat requirement challenges, like a solo version of the dungeon you'd need to run on M+ difficulty with an adjusted timer where you will have to prove that you understand positioning, interrupts and all for each NPC type, with no gear reward, only an achievement that unlocks next M+ tier, you will still face this problem.
14/11/2018 02:47Posted by Midnightfist
What other criteria can we use if we can't rely on Raider.IO or ilvl? Raid progression? You can be a mythic raider and have very little clue about M+.

I use warcraftlogs. Just making sure that my DD's parse at least purple on heroic/mythic, those people are experienced enough to learn their class so they'll be aware enough when it comes to the dungeon mechanics.
14/11/2018 05:28Posted by Phodapopo


Your points are valid....in theory.

The M+ communities that are out there, that I've also been part of for a long time have nothing happening. The bad people, naturally, want to join your +16 key even if they've done only a 13. The good people already have keys, so you're left with just the "meh". So, you'll get whispers, just not from the even close to right people.

Thing is, even tho I have a few consistent people I do keys with, here's the biggest problem:

All it takes is one person to !@#$ up and the key is over annnnnd usually, we don't have a 5-man premade online at all times, in fact, barely, so it's very hard.

All you can do is pug and hope for the best, really, but it's getting beyond frustrating.

You can't do M+ without pugging, as I said, people are rarely online all at the same time and, frankly, everyone else is doing keys with others, so it's a rotation of people. You have to pug, you do.


So to sum up you want people above your experience to carry your key and you complain that people queue up who wanna work their way to their score to achieve it and not get boosted? Yes some weeks are easy but m+ hasnt been hard for a few weeks now, people just used this one to push.
We did for example double warlock mage dh tank pala heal for a few 15 dungeons cuz thats what been online. And i was among the first 50 wls to hit a 1k score. So i am "bad" cuz i just now broke the 1,5k?
I’m pretty much burned out on M+ atm and do it less and less even in good weeks because I have to PUG with a friend most of the time and one mistake causing a depleted key will piss me off and I’m tired of getting annoyed at this game.

I realised that it’s just not very fun running dungeons with affixes designed for Legion.
14/11/2018 13:47Posted by Karkia
14/11/2018 05:28Posted by Phodapopo


Your points are valid....in theory.

The M+ communities that are out there, that I've also been part of for a long time have nothing happening. The bad people, naturally, want to join your +16 key even if they've done only a 13. The good people already have keys, so you're left with just the "meh". So, you'll get whispers, just not from the even close to right people.

Thing is, even tho I have a few consistent people I do keys with, here's the biggest problem:

All it takes is one person to !@#$ up and the key is over annnnnd usually, we don't have a 5-man premade online at all times, in fact, barely, so it's very hard.

All you can do is pug and hope for the best, really, but it's getting beyond frustrating.

You can't do M+ without pugging, as I said, people are rarely online all at the same time and, frankly, everyone else is doing keys with others, so it's a rotation of people. You have to pug, you do.


So to sum up you want people above your experience to carry your key and you complain that people queue up who wanna work their way to their score to achieve it and not get boosted? Yes some weeks are easy but m+ hasnt been hard for a few weeks now, people just used this one to push.
We did for example double warlock mage dh tank pala heal for a few 15 dungeons cuz thats what been online. And i was among the first 50 wls to hit a 1k score. So i am "bad" cuz i just now broke the 1,5k?


So, to sum it up, I know almost every single little detail about tactics / dungeons and keep up with the latest stuff high-end streamers do. Other people don't know half of it and I have to wait for others to pick up so I can do keys, where as I would call "do this" on Discord, some people would just not know what to do and all it takes is 1 mistake in the dungeon for the key to go to the trashbin.

Also, yup. You're no different than you were at 1k now that you've pushed to 1.5k or even better as of last week.
1. Make some intervals 'stable' - affixes dont change. In Legion +2 to +3 was 'stable' period (0 affixes). You can make all 10+ 'stable' with preset affixes (can be done in ranges, 10-12, 13-15 etc), this will equalize both gear and 'completion score' for every week.

2. Rewamp rewards. THe notion is to reward more difficult dungeons with more advanced gear (as seen in higher level keystone gives higher ilvl). Then you must take into account that not always higher level keystone is more diffcult dungeon - affixes play role. Then reward algorithm must take into account BOTH level and affix (and equation is required with coefficients, 'weight' for each level and affix, and rules for their interrelation). Say +5 sanguine tyrannical gives (equation calculates both level and affix weights ... ... ) 344 level reward, +5 fortified bolstering (... ...) 352 level reward +5 sanguine quaking (... ...) 339 level reward.

Ofc crude ilvl system with rewards breaking into ranges of 5 will have to go.

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