To all the raid leaders out there

General
When do you decide to change the strategy on a boss fight? As someone who has recently started raid leading this is something I'm struggling with. How do you tell if your strategy isn't working and needs changing vs your team just not executing the strategy that should work?
Sadly, stop thinking and start checking youtube.
After the first week strategies don't fail, but groups do.
12/11/2018 02:17Posted by Megatokyo
Sadly, stop thinking and start checking youtube.
After the first week strategies don't fail, but groups do.


Every raid team I've been part of makes their own little adjustments throughout progress. They may all start with a similar overall strategy but I'm talking about all the little things that make the strategy work for your specific raid team.
you just gotta be aware of what each class does the roles they play how they could play it better and the players history and previous experience , if its someone you havent raided with for long you may want to take them to one side and assess their skill on a raid dumbie (old method havent been a leader of anything for years) teach them the correct way to deal top potential dmg in their class if you spot them doing something wrong.. you prob seen me before claim that i was 99 percentile on ff14 ... that wasn't all me, that was me putting many many hours of work and effort into my team members to make sure they were at peak performance when they needed to be.

raider io is good but it skips a lot of essential steps ... nothing beats hands on tutoring even a bad player can be crafting into a top tier if they are given the right direction.
When you're either not getting any closer to a kill even though there are no massive mistakes with whatever tactic you are using or when it's the same thing messing you up every time for quite some time, some groups just struggle with certain things more than others. Essentially it's never a good idea to keep banging your head against a brick wall getting nowhere, doesn't help with motivation and is fairly pointless. It can't hurt to try something a little different at that point.

12/11/2018 02:41Posted by Midnightfist
12/11/2018 02:17Posted by Megatokyo
Sadly, stop thinking and start checking youtube.
After the first week strategies don't fail, but groups do.


Every raid team I've been part of makes their own little adjustments throughout progress. They may all start with a similar overall strategy but I'm talking about all the little things that make the strategy work for your specific raid team.


This is very true, I've been in raid teams that refused to deviate from the video/guide even when it became painfully clear that it really wasn't going to work for us, least "successful" teams I've been in (to the extent that often even clearing normal was a struggle.

The best raid teams I've been in realized fairly early when the "generic" tactics weren't going to work and adapted them to suit our team. Yes u look at the video for the basics, but then you adapt it to suit your team. Become too "rigid" and you're unlikely to get very far, especially considering the vast number of different raid comps and individual player's and team's strengths and weaknesses. There is always more than one way to kill a boss, do what works for you. It's called a guide not a walkthrough, deviations are "allowed".
12/11/2018 02:03Posted by Midnightfist
How do you tell if your strategy isn't working and needs changing vs your team just not executing the strategy that should work?


What our old RL used to do before our guild disintegrated was sit down with the strat and see if he could figure out how a wipe would look if certain mechanics were executed poorly - will the ranged or melee die first, will someone drop from 100-0 in a global, will healing become increasingly ineffective over the space of a few seconds, etc etc - then watch recordings of our failed attempts, figure out from there what was going wrong, and adjust what we were doing accordingly. We never really changed strats, but we did modify them heavily to cope with the strengths and weaknesses of our particular team.
I've not been a raidleader (or well, not a serious progress one) but I've been an officer. We usually looked again at the tactic when things didn't seem to fall into place as expected. Unless you're doing super cutting edge progress, there aren't a lot of tactics for each boss, but there might be a variant or two, and then there are little things that can matter.

What I did when we were stuck on a boss was take logs of guilds that had killed it recently, with average ilev close to ours - and see how much dmg they took compared to us - and dmg pattern, how much dmg they dealt compared to us and the sorts. One of the last times I recall doing this was at a boss that had some bombs spawn that exploded on impact or on a timer - we were mostly letting the timer run out and avoiding them, but that resulted in a lot of dmg at once which killed people. Turned out other guilds had players with strong dmg reduction pop the bombs so the damage came in little increments instead of all at once.

Also, if you are dedicated, try to see more than one tactic video. Fatboss is great at explaining mechanics, but their way of tackling raid bosses is generally straightforward, and they count of very good players for it. Look for other sources too, sometimes little gimmicks can help a weaker team.
Watch how your people are performing, even on trash or voicechat. Some people might be more active, some might be too much active.

If you are following internet tactics watch differences between given squad and your squad, you will have different classes giving you different options.

Look at what is giving you problems, are you wiping at certain moment, on some ability.

Decide checkpoints on boss, either from experience or by watching the tactics you can set checkpoint for yourself. Every time you reach that checkpoint you look at state of your raid. It can be certain HP, how many casts of certain spell the boss did. It helps you notice mistakes faster.

Sometimes different way of explaining helps. Sometimes people understand when you say "go away with debuff" sometimes you need to explain them to move away even if they dont know what exactly is happening.

Personal experience, when you raid since vanilla and with pretty much same people you know who is capable of what, who has trouble where and you might see similar patterns in fails, so you adjust beforehand for these eventualities.
12/11/2018 02:57Posted by Pixelbear
you just gotta be aware of what each class does the roles they play how they could play it better and the players history and previous experience , if its someone you havent raided with for long you may want to take them to one side and assess their skill on a raid dumbie (old method havent been a leader of anything for years) teach them the correct way to deal top potential dmg in their class if you spot them doing something wrong.. you prob seen me before claim that i was 99 percentile on ff14 ... that wasn't all me, that was me putting many many hours of work and effort into my team members to make sure they were at peak performance when they needed to be.

raider io is good but it skips a lot of essential steps ... nothing beats hands on tutoring even a bad player can be crafting into a top tier if they are given the right direction.


Just xD
I think it's good if a raid leader has played the 3 main roles for a raid. It will give you first hand knowledge of the weaks and strengths that each role faces.

Also, as frustrating as wiping can be, being able to keep your cool really helps. I've been in raids where the RL loses their S**t and noone wants to put up with a torrent of abuse. How ever, checking people know the fight beforehand can be of great help to prevent mistakes happening over and over, because someone didn't know what they were doing.
Do you log the raids? If not, then start doing so, and learn to read the logs. You can live log, or upload logs after raids. That can be very helpfull in cases where you can't pinpoint from the encounter what doesn't work.

An example from my guild was when we were progressing on heroic Argus, and had a lot of P1 wipes. When I went through the logs after raid, I realized from reading the logs that the strategy we used to get away from the cone was incorrect. We were in the belief that we had to wait to run away from the cone until Argus's cone castbar were at 50%, because we had heard that he would otherwise turn with the person he had targeted. It looked like that when doing the encounter too, so we believed it. In the logs however, I saw that a large majority of the raid with take 1-2 ticks of the cone when we told them to wait until the castbar was at 50%. The dmg on the raid would be too large for the healers to keep up over time(and people would have a very hard time surviving the combination of the debuff he cast on selected player, alongside cone ticks. We concluded that we had the wrong strategy to deal with the cone, and started looking for videos to confirm this(don't remember if we found any), but next raid we told our raiders not to wait because once he started casting, his position would be set, and voila, problem solved.

Thanks to logging.

12/11/2018 02:17Posted by Megatokyo
Sadly, stop thinking and start checking youtube.
After the first week strategies don't fail, but groups do.


This is terrible advice.

A Youtube strategy works in theory, but if you can't adjust the strategy to your teams needs when it fails, you shouldn't be raid leading. That's just bad and arrogant leadership.
12/11/2018 02:03Posted by Midnightfist
When do you decide to change the strategy on a boss fight? As someone who has recently started raid leading this is something I'm struggling with. How do you tell if your strategy isn't working and needs changing vs your team just not executing the strategy that should work?


Changing strategies is not a thing, because everyone uses the same ones. Generally every guide uses the same one with a few tweeks here and there. Individual changes may be necessary, like switching the priest from Holy to disc, or telling your paladin to use Devo aura rather than Aura of Mercy, or as simple as changing who gets the inervates/BoW, who gets the better dps position, and who gets to do the dirty work. It all comes to experience, really and what works for you.
Example: Ghuun HC runners, DHs can solo the run by using meta, but if you do not want to waste his dps CD and save it for P3, because you are dying, you can make the switch of 2 people running rather than the DH.
Another example - Fetid HC. During first kills raids were killing only 1 add, leaving the 2nd to be eaten. If your damage is high enough, you can kill both, or even not bother with them and just nuke boss.
The only boss I know of having 2 different tactics that both work is Mother Mythic. And it is more to what kind of setup you have.
12/11/2018 02:57Posted by Pixelbear
you just gotta be aware of what each class does the roles they play how they could play it better and the players history and previous experience , if its someone you havent raided with for long you may want to take them to one side and assess their skill on a raid dumbie (old method havent been a leader of anything for years) teach them the correct way to deal top potential dmg in their class if you spot them doing something wrong.. you prob seen me before claim that i was 99 percentile on ff14 ... that wasn't all me, that was me putting many many hours of work and effort into my team members to make sure they were at peak performance when they needed to be.

raider io is good but it skips a lot of essential steps ... nothing beats hands on tutoring even a bad player can be crafting into a top tier if they are given the right direction.


Mate, no offense, but raid leaders aren't gods of gaming, to know every class and every role and teach those people to play better than they do maining that class. I mean, I'd be pretty impressed if such a player would exist.
Raiding dummies are more or less useless, since everybody can deal decent dmg sitting on their asses and hitting a stationary target. Logs are far better.

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