This is why Titanforging is ruining the game.

General
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29/10/2018 14:11Posted by Tahra
26/10/2018 15:21Posted by Shortbolts

And I'm tired of people who have barely done ANYTHING to understand this.


I have pathfinder part 1. I am exalted with all the factions on the alliance side.
How is that barely done anything.

RAIDING IS NOT ALL THERE IS TO THIS GAME!!!!
In fact for MANY MANY MANY players raiding isn't important AT ALL.
For me, all that raiding is, is: Some new transmogs to collect and a storyline to complete.

TF was NOT made for raiders. It just wasn't.
It's not for you. Ignore it. Go away. Leave us alone.

26/10/2018 15:21Posted by Shortbolts

you also have only done 3 bosses on Normal, yet you are only 5 item levels behind me,


So what? That has no influence whatsoever. It really doesn't matter what my ilvl is compared to you. It SHOULDN'T matter to you (the fact that it does says more about you and your personality than anything else).

26/10/2018 15:21Posted by Shortbolts

The AMOUNT of work I've put into this game compared to you is huge, yet the ilvl difference between us is tiny.


Again; WHO CARES.
Also; I probably put more work into the game if you look at our entire WoW 'careers'.

But again... WHO CARES???!!!!
I couldn't care less what your ilvl is. Really. No f-s given. Whatsoever.

26/10/2018 15:21Posted by Shortbolts

You've barely done the content, yet you're on par with me when it comes to gear. Does that SERIOUSLY seem fair to you?


Yes. Because I HAVE done the content. RAIDING IS NOT THE CONTENT! It's one choice of a whole list of choices.
I'm offended that you say that I've barely done content, because I've done a LOT. I have over a year of playtime on my main character alone. That is not nothing. That is dedication. That takes effort. And before you bring it up; no that time was not spend AFK-ing. Afking in a town is useless and something I don't do. When I log in, I actually play.

The fact that you raid doesn't make you special. The game is the game. And people play this game in many different ways. Yours is not the one and only correct way.


So you should have the ilvl that the difficulty of content you have done rewards, there is nothing wrong with that.

I really hope that they get rid of TF so much or atleast cap it to +10 ilvl of the base drop.
29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

It was data mined by an unintended leak. So no it is not "made up" it is closer to fact than the fiction wow has 3+ million subs and thriving. The point is if WoW had 5 millions subs blizzard would gladly say so and deny this embarrassing leak. Fact is they can not unless they wanna be sued so hard for lying they be bankrupt before 2018 ends cause their subs are not at 5+ mil but less than 2.5


The poster of that info was told by a Blizzard rep that the info was false.
That's enough for me. You might need to remove that tinfoil hat mate.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

Did I say everyone was trolling? Did you read properly? No probably not as it was simply one of the reason stated why anyone white knights and argues for TF being a good system for the game. Suggestion; go read some books and improve that reading comprehension, you surely need it.


No need for such a blatant aggressive response. I was going over your different 'reasons' and this was just the first one you mentioned, which seems weird because I seriously doubt more than maybe 2% of all people in favor of TF are actually trolling about it.

I can read very well btw, thanks.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

I probably played this game before you even knew it existed so yes, i am fully aware of the ins and out of the game systems in place.


I kind of doubt that since I was actually in the beta all those years ago, but kudos for trying to seem knowledgeable.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

What worked and what did not work. What made people pleased, happy and playing the game and what made them angry and leave the game. In general those asking for its removal can present a multitude of arguments for its removal, meanwhile those arguing for its continues existence can but muster but a few, most of them screaming of entitlement in a game with a monthly premium for the very reason of avoiding having any need of entitlement and cheap thrills like lower tier free to play game models has to advertise with.


Oh the bias just oozes from all your pores.
No, there's not a multitude of arguments by people in favor of TF's removal. In fact, I keep seeing the same few, old tired 'reasons' ...

- I'm petty and jealous of other players
- I don't want other people to get what I get because I'm BETTER!!!
- I set unrealistic goals and I want my things NAO!
- RNG RNG RNG

That's pretty much it. Those reasons, different wording. Over and over.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

Either way the overwhelming majority voicing their opinion against the system


Wrong.
What you see is the fanatic few throwing a tantrum over and over.
What you don't see is the actual majority that doesn't mind TF at all or who actually like it and they don't have any reason to post.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

and RNG within the RNG being one of the main reason stated by people dropping their sub one is only to presume it can not be a very good and healthy system for the game.


People dropping their subs at the moment has very very little to do with TF. It has everything to do with the various OTHER problems BfA has. You are so biased and looking for a scapegoat you are creating your own reality.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

If the ones that are supposed to enjoy it, clearly reject it is hard to really tell them they are wrong, unless you wanna jump on the blizzard train and call us all "stupid" and being too incompetent to actually realize what we want to spend our money on.


Nonsense because the system clearly isn't meant for players like you.
Oh and btw, players like you definitely are NOT the majority of the playerbase.
More changing of reality I suppose?

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

In everyone best interest I believe it is better if the game is something that 5+ mil approve of and play rather than less than 3 mil people, regardless of what a minority of players thinks, at the end of they day the majority has to rule, especially since we can all agree hard cold cash is all blizzard ever care about so.


Again you're turning this around.
The majority likes it. The vocal minority of tryhard, fanatic players dislike it (overal of course, I'm sure there's some fringe cases).

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

Yes people are pleased with the odds being perfectly balanced in everyone's favor until those odds in one way or another comes back a bites you in the !@#.


No, because like I have said earlier in another post; not everyone is like you.
Not everyone is petty. Some people don't mind if others get nice stuff. Some people can be happy for others. Some people are *gasp* actual good people.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

I am perfectly fine seeing my raids power grow as we progress and distribute the gear equally among our players. Thing is that is no longer a guild decision,


Again with the egocentric thing. How about being happy for a complete stranger? What's actually wrong with that?
And the fact that it's no longer a guild decision as you say, is not TF's fault.
That's down to Blizzard's PL decision, which is something else entirely.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

and it is also a hard cold fact that if someone subsequently grows in gear faster than you and thus produce higher numbers than you due to stats alone and not through actual merits you are more likely to get benched when the boss requires higher numbers.


Not if you play with actual decent human beings.

29/10/2018 18:09Posted by Dramputation

In a player controlled environment


I just want to comment on this, because... Player controlled environment is causing those last few problems you're mentioning. Players who only care about numbers. Players who, despite knowing they don't NEED tf, will still demand it from people. Players who, when given an inch, will take a mile and ask, no demand, more. Players that only care about themselves and will walk over others whenever given the chance. Players when given any power are corrupted almost instantly and will abuse it whenever and however they can.

Yeah, player controlled environment. No thanks.

Just to be clear; I'm not saying everyone is like that (thank goodness they're not), but the things you are describing are caused be exactly the kind of people and the kind of mentality as I mentioned. If you are honestly part of a guild that acts like that (and I'm suspecting you are not and were just using hyperbole), I would distance myself from them as soon as possible.
29/10/2018 21:29Posted by Sebarial

So you should have the ilvl that the difficulty of content you have done rewards, there is nothing wrong with that.


No there isn't. Except for the little fact that when a character's done advancing, there's a good chance that player will get bored and quit. Blizzard doesn't want that.

If they don't get a good alternative 'carrot' or other way to keep those kinds of players playing, then TF will remain. So, here's the challenge; provide a good alternative and maybe Blizzard will start to listen. To use an analogy: just removing TF or making it a useless system is only removing the bloody bandaid; you're not actually healing the wound. Provide Blizzard with a new way to heal that wound, or at the very least stop the bleeding. If you don't, your pleas for removal will continue to fall on deaf ears (because like it or not; the system DOES work - maybe not for you, but for the majority it is).

29/10/2018 21:29Posted by Sebarial

I really hope that they get rid of TF so much or atleast cap it to +10 ilvl of the base drop.


I really hope they keep it forever.
But fyi, capping it at +10 is just about the same as removing it. So asking for either is not acceptable nor realistic.

Capping it at +25 would be more realistic. But like has been said over and over by others, chances of a high proc are SO VERY LOW already that it really doesn't matter. If you get a TF proc, it's mostly going to be a lower number anyway.
People dropping their subs at the moment has very very little to do with TF.

But does it have very very very little to do with TF? How littler is "very little" than little? And how do we measure?

If you mean people leaving saying "I am leaving because I am outraged by TF!" then yes, there are very very few of those - very very very very few, even. :P

But people rarely leave en masse because of any one thing. The nearest I can think of was the "no more flying" announcement in WoD, which didn't happen (and I think that was staged anyway).

People unsub when the game isn't keeping them engaged, like in droughts at the end of expansions, and that is not because of any one thing.

A sizeable number of people want to work towards a definite goal. Titanforging removes that possibility. That removes a part of their motivation to play. It contributes towards making them feel unengaged. And so it will add to the unsub rate among such people. How many are there, and how significant is the effect? I doubt even Blizzard has a solid idea, but I'm sure they're probing that, and looking for the spot to pull back from it.
I originally posted following almost 2 years ago:
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17614414967
it has more complex reasoning and even possible solution without advocating WF/TF removal.
Solution which would work forever and would improve several other aspects of game which feel next to useless now
I think WF and TF makes more people stay than leave. Knowing you might get a little nice surprise is exciting.

I'd say the boring azerite system makes more people go.
29/10/2018 23:50Posted by Gráinne
People dropping their subs at the moment has very very little to do with TF.

But does it have very very very little to do with TF? How littler is "very little" than little? And how do we measure?

If you mean people leaving saying "I am leaving because I am outraged by TF!" then yes, there are very very few of those - very very very very few, even. :P

But people rarely leave en masse because of any one thing. The nearest I can think of was the "no more flying" announcement in WoD, which didn't happen (and I think that was staged anyway).

People unsub when the game isn't keeping them engaged, like in droughts at the end of expansions, and that is not because of any one thing.


And that's exactly why I said 'very very few' and not 'none'. :)

29/10/2018 23:50Posted by Gráinne

A sizeable number of people want to work towards a definite goal. Titanforging removes that possibility.


But that's just it; it DOESN'T do that.
It removes a particular goal; getting all BiS gear.
You can still work towards getting the ilvl of the difficulty you are doing. If you happen to get a TF proc while doing that; nice bonus.

Players who do higher difficulty content WILL have higher average ilvl. Like it has always been.

29/10/2018 23:50Posted by Gráinne

How many are there, and how significant is the effect? I doubt even Blizzard has a solid idea, but I'm sure they're probing that, and looking for the spot to pull back from it.


If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that the effect is not very significant. And I'll explain why (even though I have done so before in another post):

If you look at problematic systems (or systems not liked by the majority of the playerbase), Blizzard has a certain MO. They will react with changes. If those changes still don't have the desired effect of turning that system into a beloved feature they will most likely drop that system in the next expansion or change it very drastically.

I'm only taking a few recent examples for this in consideration (but there are more and older examples):

- Legendaries in Legion.
They made several changes over the course of Legion's lifespan. Some were very fast alterations (hotfixed) and most were patched in later.
They discontinued the system in BfA.

- Azerite gear in BfA.
They made changes already (hotfixed) and have promised quite a few upcoming changes which will be patched in.

- Island expeditions in BfA.
They have made several hotfixes already and like Azerite gear, have made promises of more upcoming changes which will be patched in.

- Titanforging in Legion (and now BfA).
They kept TF intact throughout Legion (and so far have made no changes and/or promise of changes in BfA).
The system was continued in BfA with a few alterations to take care of some balancing issues.

See the difference?
If MANY people have a problem with a system; Blizzard WILL act.
The fact that they did not act on TF throughout Legion's 2 year run, says a lot.

That leads me to conclude that the people who dislike TF are in fact just a vocal minority (which doesn't mean they are wrong for not liking the system. It just means that they shouldn't expect that system to be changed or removed just for them).
30/10/2018 00:16Posted by Tahra
If MANY people have a problem with a system; Blizzard WILL act.
The fact that they did not act on TF throughout Legion's 2 year run, says a lot.

Like "how little is very very little?" we are left asking "how many is many?" Numbers are so much better than the counterfeit authority of adjectives, but we don't have them, and even if we did, they would still be insufficient, because there are questions both of extensivity and intensivity.

I dislike Titanforging, but it's not very important to me. It would maybe make my top 50 or top 100 problems in current WoW, but surely not the top 20.

But often, we can't exactly identify whet we like or dislike in the game. We may know that we're excited, or that we're less interested, but breaking that down to identifiable causes is often beyond us. How many times on these forums we have seen, basically, "WoW just isn't interesting me like it used to". Then some people put it down to staleness or burnout, and that can certainly be one factor, but I think there are usually others, many smaller factors that add up.

Titanforging is a manifestation of Blizzard favouring RNG over sustained effort. In Legion, the epitome of Blizzard favouring RNG over sustained effort was the Legendary Lotto. I believe TF would have drawn much more attention and criticism in Legion if it hadn't been overshadowed by its more imposing Slot-Machine Big Brother.

There isn't really a right or wrong here. Some people are energised by gambling, and in different degrees, at different risk levels. Some people are demotivated by it. Blizzard is trying to play the numbers, themselves betting that more people are or can be enticed into following the gambling trail than will be turned off by it.

I do believe that if they feel the strategy is not paying off, they will change it. That will be one reason they asked about it in their recent survey. I'm not sure how effective that will be, though; whatever about the self-awareness of people actively playing, how accurately will unsubbed people analyse their recations, with a distance from the game?

I wasn't going to get into this point, but while I'm here:
It removes a particular goal; getting all BiS gear.
You can still work towards getting the ilvl of the difficulty you are doing. If you happen to get a TF proc while doing that; nice bonus.

You can work towards arbitrary goals, like counting all the trees in Drustvar. You absolutely can. But they are arbitrary, and feel arbitrary, and so, usually unsatisfying.

Someone could work towards a full set of ideal 370s, and I'm sure in previous expansion many people worked towards, and were satisfied with, their Heroic BiS. But now every one of those 370s will taunt you, because it could have been a 395 with socket.

TF makes every drop a disappointment.
29/10/2018 23:50Posted by Gráinne
...
But does it have very very very little to do with TF? How littler is "very little" than little? And how do we measure?

If you mean people leaving saying "I am leaving because I am outraged by TF!" then yes, there are very very few of those - very very very very few, even. :P

But people rarely leave en masse because of any one thing. The nearest I can think of was the "no more flying" announcement in WoD, which didn't happen (and I think that was staged anyway).

People unsub when the game isn't keeping them engaged, like in droughts at the end of expansions, and that is not because of any one thing.


And that's exactly why I said 'very very few' and not 'none'. :)

29/10/2018 23:50Posted by Gráinne

A sizeable number of people want to work towards a definite goal. Titanforging removes that possibility.


But that's just it; it DOESN'T do that.
It removes a particular goal; getting all BiS gear.
You can still work towards getting the ilvl of the difficulty you are doing. If you happen to get a TF proc while doing that; nice bonus.

Players who do higher difficulty content WILL have higher average ilvl. Like it has always been.

29/10/2018 23:50Posted by Gráinne

How many are there, and how significant is the effect? I doubt even Blizzard has a solid idea, but I'm sure they're probing that, and looking for the spot to pull back from it.


If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that the effect is not very significant. And I'll explain why (even though I have done so before in another post):

If you look at problematic systems (or systems not liked by the majority of the playerbase), Blizzard has a certain MO. They will react with changes. If those changes still don't have the desired effect of turning that system into a beloved feature they will most likely drop that system in the next expansion or change it very drastically.

I'm only taking a few recent examples for this in consideration (but there are more and older examples):

- Legendaries in Legion.
They made several changes over the course of Legion's lifespan. Some were very fast alterations (hotfixed) and most were patched in later.
They discontinued the system in BfA.

- Azerite gear in BfA.
They made changes already (hotfixed) and have promised quite a few upcoming changes which will be patched in.

- Island expeditions in BfA.
They have made several hotfixes already and like Azerite gear, have made promises of more upcoming changes which will be patched in.

- Titanforging in Legion (and now BfA).
They kept TF intact throughout Legion (and so far have made no changes and/or promise of changes in BfA).
The system was continued in BfA with a few alterations to take care of some balancing issues.

See the difference?
If MANY people have a problem with a system; Blizzard WILL act.
The fact that they did not act on TF throughout Legion's 2 year run, says a lot.

That leads me to conclude that the people who dislike TF are in fact just a vocal minority (which doesn't mean they are wrong for not liking the system. It just means that they shouldn't expect that system to be changed or removed just for them).


It was tolerated in Legion because it was a good expansion, so yeah it was annoying but the rest of the expansion was good so we lived with it. In BFA there is pretty much only endgame content and WF/TF ruins the endgame feel for alot of players that want a goal that they can work towards.

Other players getting items that they should not get in that content is only a small part of it, the most annoying part is that you can never finish gearing your character for the current tier.
If the gear was only able to warforge like what it was in mop no one would complaint.

Because it was like Chery on the cake.

Now with tf its more then a chery, why you think we have trinket imbalance in legion and now bfa?

The rpg element is taking your character to the top difficulty with the best gear avaiable.

Because now killing 5 murloc worth more then killing ghun mythic,because of the chance the trinket by killing those murloc is way better then the one that drop from last boss of a freaking raid.,If the gear was only able to warforge like what it was in mop no one would complaint.

Because it was a like Chery on the cake.

Now with tf its more then a chery, why you think se have trinket imbalance in legion and now bfa?

The rpg element is taking your character to the top difficulty with the best gear avaiable.

Because now killing 5 murloc worth more then killing ghun mythic because of the chance the trinket by killing those murloc is way better then the one that drop from last boss of a fricking raid.,If the gear was only able to warforge like what it was in mop no one would complaint.

Because it was a like Chery on the cake.

Now with tf its more then a chery, why you think se have trinket imbalance in legion and now bfa?

The rpg element is taking your character to the top difficulty with the best gear avaiable.

Because now killing 5 murloc worth more then killing ghun mythic because of the chance the trinket by killing those murloc is way better then the one that drop from last boss of a fricking raid.
Tahra, you're right about one thing, Blizzard reacts when majority is unhappy with specific feature - they fix it, BUT if they don't care about minorities the small chunks of playerbase begin to quit the game.
The game first begins to go downhill if Blizzard have to cather to the loud vocal minority. Its the majority that counts, why do you think they should cater to minorities? You got it completely upside down, minority QQers with often ridiculous demands is not and should not ever be a priority to appease.
30/10/2018 06:50Posted by Sebarial

It was tolerated in Legion because it was a good expansion, so yeah it was annoying but the rest of the expansion was good so we lived with it.


There was constant complaining. I've had these discussions throughout Legion.
Face it; you're a minority. You're not going to have it your way.

30/10/2018 06:50Posted by Sebarial

In BFA there is pretty much only endgame content and WF/TF ruins the endgame feel for alot of players that want a goal that they can work towards.


Work towards getting the raid sets. Work towards getting raid achievements. Work towards clearing all the content. There's your goal. Have you cleared it?

30/10/2018 06:50Posted by Sebarial

Other players getting items that they should not get in that content is only a small part of it, the most annoying part is that you can never finish gearing your character for the current tier.


And for other players that is a GOOD thing. Always something to do.
You can be happy with less. You don't need BiS.
30/10/2018 08:05Posted by Verdill
Tahra, you're right about one thing, Blizzard reacts when majority is unhappy with specific feature - they fix it, BUT if they don't care about minorities the small chunks of playerbase begin to quit the game.


Yes, but it's better that small chunks quit rather than huge parts of the playerbase, is it not?
30/10/2018 07:48Posted by Grômmar
If the gear was only able to warforge like what it was in mop no one would complaint.


I don't know why you felt the need to repeat the exact same text several times. That's spamming and that's against forum rules.
And there would be complaining: all the people who would be bored with the game and ready to quit would be complaining.

30/10/2018 07:48Posted by Grômmar

Because it was like Chery on the cake.


It still is.

30/10/2018 07:48Posted by Grômmar

The rpg element is taking your character to the top difficulty with the best gear avaiable.


That's not RPG. Look it up and find out what it really means.
Sure, gearing is often a big part of RPG games (not always though), but 'best gear available' is just silly hyperbole. Also the difficulty has NOTHING to do with RPG.

30/10/2018 07:48Posted by Grômmar

Because now killing 5 murloc worth more then killing ghun mythic,because of the chance the trinket by killing those murloc is way better then the one that drop from last boss of a freaking raid.,If the gear was only able to warforge like what it was in mop no one would complaint.


Pure. Nonsense.
Killing a raid boss is STILL the better way to gear up.
Stop spewing your hyperbole nonsense please.
I genuinely hope that none of the people spouting about keeping the majority happy, so it's fine to ruin things for a minority ever open up a business. That sort of model is just stupid. One should never intentionally alienate any percentage of an already existing consumer base regardless of whether the majority is happy or not.

One may argue that it's fine because they can be replaced, but that's not guaranteed, those people already buying your product are, retention is a vital part of any consumer driven industry. It's also fair to say that at some point you will run out of new customers to replace them with, particular products naturally only appeal to a particular consumer base (a vast minority of the population generally).

You could also argue that it's still OK because the business is still making money, only a "minority" will stop buying the product. And yes, that's true, for now... But long term it's a bloody stupid idea. If you keep changing a product that people are happy with and each time you do so in a way that alienates a different "minority", eventually those minorities add up and you're left with a situation where the only majority is those who no longer use the product.

Case in point, this game. There is no one single reason people stopped playing, but guaranteed there were a ton of various "minorities" that left because of changes to a product that they were happy with... Too many changes and oh look, the clear majority of people who have played wow at one stage or another no longer play.

It is absolutely 100% a good idea to attempt to cater to the majority, just not in a way that adversely affects any minority. Losing customers is losing customers, minority or not.
Tahra, you're right about one thing, Blizzard reacts when majority is unhappy with specific feature - they fix it, BUT if they don't care about minorities the small chunks of playerbase begin to quit the game.


true, but thread that barely reached 12 pages in 6 days and includes in 80% responses from the same 10 people us hardly majority.

unless you are desperate to compare it to removal of flying which reached 1000 + pages in first 24 hours.

you are projecting stuff.

and argument about BiS is flawed from get go since blizzard do not want you to chase BiS.
30/10/2018 12:31Posted by Amaleim
I genuinely hope that none of the people spouting about keeping the majority happy, so it's fine to ruin things for a minority ever open up a business. That sort of model is just stupid. One should never intentionally alienate any percentage of an already existing consumer base regardless of whether the majority is happy or not.

One may argue that it's fine because they can be replaced, but that's not guaranteed, those people already buying your product are, retention is a vital part of any consumer driven industry. It's also fair to say that at some point you will run out of new customers to replace them with, particular products naturally only appeal to a particular consumer base (a vast minority of the population generally).

You could also argue that it's still OK because the business is still making money, only a "minority" will stop buying the product. And yes, that's true, for now... But long term it's a bloody stupid idea. If you keep changing a product that people are happy with and each time you do so in a way that alienates a different "minority", eventually those minorities add up and you're left with a situation where the only majority is those who no longer use the product.

Case in point, this game. There is no one single reason people stopped playing, but guaranteed there were a ton of various "minorities" that left because of changes to a product that they were happy with... Too many changes and oh look, the clear majority of people who have played wow at one stage or another no longer play.

It is absolutely 100% a good idea to attempt to cater to the majority, just not in a way that adversely affects any minority. Losing customers is losing customers, minority or not.


The majoirty of people who played wow at one stage or another and who no longer play is simply because Of Xs and one of those major Xs is because of the game catering to minorities and putting people into other peoples power.

Communities feature in bfa and expanded systems stemming from Xs can easily fic modern wow..

EVery iteration of wow has also been a cancerous community clone of it self, the only reason wotlk is viewed as so wonderful is because it had many players, and the reason many of them no longer play is , is because they got severely burned in wotlk and every expansion after.
29/10/2018 21:29Posted by Sebarial
29/10/2018 14:11Posted by Tahra
...

I have pathfinder part 1. I am exalted with all the factions on the alliance side.
How is that barely done anything.

RAIDING IS NOT ALL THERE IS TO THIS GAME!!!!
In fact for MANY MANY MANY players raiding isn't important AT ALL.
For me, all that raiding is, is: Some new transmogs to collect and a storyline to complete.

TF was NOT made for raiders. It just wasn't.
It's not for you. Ignore it. Go away. Leave us alone.

...

So what? That has no influence whatsoever. It really doesn't matter what my ilvl is compared to you. It SHOULDN'T matter to you (the fact that it does says more about you and your personality than anything else).

...

Again; WHO CARES.
Also; I probably put more work into the game if you look at our entire WoW 'careers'.

But again... WHO CARES???!!!!
I couldn't care less what your ilvl is. Really. No f-s given. Whatsoever.

...

Yes. Because I HAVE done the content. RAIDING IS NOT THE CONTENT! It's one choice of a whole list of choices.
I'm offended that you say that I've barely done content, because I've done a LOT. I have over a year of playtime on my main character alone. That is not nothing. That is dedication. That takes effort. And before you bring it up; no that time was not spend AFK-ing. Afking in a town is useless and something I don't do. When I log in, I actually play.

The fact that you raid doesn't make you special. The game is the game. And people play this game in many different ways. Yours is not the one and only correct way.


So you should have the ilvl that the difficulty of content you have done rewards, there is nothing wrong with that.

I really hope that they get rid of TF so much or atleast cap it to +10 ilvl of the base drop.


They dont get the same i level or same gear proggression, pls enough BS , and TRIVIAL CONTENT which can DROP THE FORGED I LEVEL .

CAN BE DONE BY ANYONE EVEN SHOCK HORROR THE MYTHICERS CAN DO IT!.
The poster of that info was told by a Blizzard rep that the info was false.
That's enough for me. You might need to remove that tinfoil hat mate.


So whenever someone in charge tells you something you listen and agree with it regards of what is said? Great. Does not remind at all of a certain country in the 1930s... Critical thinking was it and proper analysis. Mega-Corporates ethics and daily business practice might also be something to look in to.

I was going over your different 'reasons' and this was just the first one you mentioned, which seems weird because I seriously doubt more than maybe 2% of all people in favor of TF are actually trolling about it.


So less than 2% in favor of TF that are being vocal about it on the internet are trolls? "sure".

I can read very well btw, thanks.


You are only proving otherwise with every post.

I kind of doubt that since I was actually in the beta all those years ago, but kudos for trying to seem knowledgeable.


WoD beta?

- I'm petty and jealous of other players
- I don't want other people to get what I get because I'm BETTER!!!
- I set unrealistic goals and I want my things NAO!
- RNG RNG RNG

That's pretty much it. Those reasons, different wording. Over and over.


1. E-peen and progression goes hand in hand and is the corner stone of of any MMO. Not everyone can own and drive a Ferrari same goes for wearing the best equipment in MMO games, especially in WoW as everyone was not able to over come the most difficult and time consuming tasks in the game. And people liked it that way. Otherwise more people would simply be playing. The product is theoretically unlimited, but no one is interested.

2. But that is more the argument of those in favor of TF, actually the first point is more or so as well. People expect random luck to be the basis of what they deserve in this game, and be it so it rewards them with the best item in the game - it was "deserved". Things should not be earned, but rewards for logging on to the game and participating in 30 minutes of the lowest tier of content. In a consumer society were basic human psychology dictates we always want to earn and own things others do not such a bland mechanic is nothing but short of disastrous, as seen by the wasteland wow again is slowly becoming.

Everyone could reach the best rewards in the game before, if they just gave it enough time and effort. Those that put their heart and drive in to it would get to the end quicker than others. Some people are just better at video games than others and subsequently more deserving of unlocking the most sough after rewards locked behind the most difficult challenges.

3. Yes RNG! RNG is boring, it is random, it is tiring, and surprise the majority of us are healthy fully functional individuals in modern society and not desperate gambling addicts looking for the next quick fix. Drop RNG was more than enough time gating for rewards after overcoming a certain tier of challange, further RNG on top of that.. well here we are, lots of hate, frustration and disappointment with the game.

Again with the egocentric thing. How about being happy for a complete stranger? What's actually wrong with that?
And the fact that it's no longer a guild decision as you say, is not TF's fault.
That's down to Blizzard's PL decision, which is something else entirely.


How is it egocentric to wish loot upon my raids members so we can grow stronger together and reward the players that deserve it with appropriate loot? Do you even know the implications and the annoyance over getting duplicate loot but with higher item lvl? Always having to be the devils advocate when distributing gear, or again leave it up to chance and roll for it. Like it or not people emotions are always involved and when something is gonna become "unavailable" as certain TF items are as they simply roll so well. I'll rather have my raiders say "its fine you can take it this week, it is a good upgrade for you!" rather than "oh it is never ever gonna drop again and I know its a 5% upgrade for you but its a 1% upgrade for me and yea its not gonna drop again so..."

TF is a big part of that problem and PL may be a different entity but it certainty goes hand in hand with this current loot system and itemization. All i know is when the raiders are happy the game is thriving. Less loot drama=happier raiders. Happy pvp players never hurt either. Like it or not these two are the two core groups and cornerstones of the WoW community, everything in between are ultimately side orders that either server and funnel in to these two activities or simply just exists in their own little bubble.

Not if you play with actual decent human beings.


Decent human beings are actually the ones not letting the other people in the raid suffer and feel like they are smashing their heads against something unbeatable just because they do not wanna make a good decision. Most people raiding are adult enough to understand results, and more often than not orientated in that direction and in my experience as such most people are very civil about it. TF and the loot drama that it ensures causes way more issues in my experience. Fixed ilvl is in everyone best interest as it ensures that no matter what type of individuals are in the raid at the end of the day people are happy.

29/10/2018 23:27Posted by Tahra
I just want to comment on this, because... Player controlled environment is causing those last few problems you're mentioning. Players who only care about numbers. Players who, despite knowing they don't NEED tf, will still demand it from people. Players who, when given an inch, will take a mile and ask, no demand, more. Players that only care about themselves and will walk over others whenever given the chance. Players when given any power are corrupted almost instantly and will abuse it whenever and however they can.

Yeah, player controlled environment. No thanks.


Its just hilarious thou when looking at the hundreds of changes blizzard made to this game in the last 3 expansions and to loot especially, the toxicity has only escalated. You can not blame that on the generation shift alone, especially since the majority playing the game are still born in the 90s and downwards. More things are left to RNG now --->less player control than before. That is probably one of the biggest changes. Especially with all the match making going on in the game. Before if you wanted to have a chance at the best rewards you had to join a guild, raid and act accordingly. Now just join LFR, be toxic all you want and hope for TF. Better yet run some M+ dungeons, leave any moment you like, you do not even have to do difficult keyies even with good players, just do low ones and hope for TF.

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