This is why Titanforging is ruining the game.

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24/10/2018 10:15Posted by Solaris
24/10/2018 09:56Posted by Electrocutie

How pathetically elitist do you have to be to begrudge a random person from having a bit of happiness from a computer game for a few days?


I don't consider myself elitist or hardcore, I put a few hours in after work every day.

I think that character PROGRESSION is the core concept of an MMO. You put in time, do increasingly difficult or challenging content and you get rewarded for it with better gear. You're building your character.

Getting handed cookies at random for taking part in low end content for some faux happiness because you got lucky is completely against what an MMO should be. I'm happy when I get a drop I'm running a dungeon for and put in the time, not because I get a lucky +25-40 ilvl titanforge.


Again how is getting a drop or no drop different than getting a drop or a TF drop?
24/10/2018 10:33Posted by Tsjoh
Without TF he now had a certain upgrade. TF is removing so many happy moments.


So let's say it was a certain upgrade now but next week gets an item for that slot again. Is it still the fault of titanforge?
Also how does this even matter, the end result is the same. At the end of the day, with or without titanforge, you still have a person with 355 in all slots and 1 slot with 380/390.

Seriously the amount of things blamed on titanforge, it's almost a running joke by now.
24/10/2018 09:35Posted by Tsjoh
When you play for some time on 'your highest level', you get nothing anymore. I have no problem with that.

Exactly my point. My "highest level" is the pure basics.
I have no problems with it either as it is my own choosing. I'm just saying that once they introduced TF/WF, the motivations for continuing to do that lowlevel content got better.
If they were to flat out remove it, it would take away a possible reward instead of it never being there in the first place, which in turn would leave to an increased overall negative experience - at least for me. (Because lets face it, doing highlevel keys are challenging and that's the motivator. There's nothing remotely "challenging" about the content I do so the fun and satisfaction needs to come from something else in order for me to keep playing it).

Again, I am not saying I deserve better gear from lower content just because I can't be arsed to do higher content, I am saying that it is a motivating factor to keep playing. The alternative is to not play at all.

I totally get where you are coming from and I understand your arguments well. I am just merely presenting the other side of the coin.
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I don't consider myself elitist or hardcore, I put a few hours in after work every day.

I think that character PROGRESSION is the core concept of an MMO. You put in time, do increasingly difficult or challenging content and you get rewarded for it with better gear. You're building your character.

Getting handed cookies at random for taking part in low end content for some faux happiness because you got lucky is completely against what an MMO should be. I'm happy when I get a drop I'm running a dungeon for and put in the time, not because I get a lucky +25-40 ilvl titanforge.


Again how is getting a drop or no drop different than getting a drop or a TF drop?


You have a goal - you know what you want, where it drops. You can target it.

If it drops - awesome, you got what you wanted. It feels great.
If it doesn't - damn, try again another time or at reset

If it drops and DOESN'T war or titanforge - Oh, cool I guess. Gotta run it again to get that BIS item.

There's no satisfaction in acquiring gear any more because you know it could be better if it didn't titan or warforge.

When I used to raid in older expansions and got a nice tier piece it was such a great feeling. Is it a great feeling if you get a drop that's +25 ilvls over what other people got for no reason whatsoever? No. No it isn't.

RNG Drops are a big part of an mmo, I get that. However adding random ilvls onto items to keep you chasing a carrot or to provide people with a small piece of instant gratification is bad game design and unhealthy for the game in my opinion.

No one wanted it until it was brought into the game in MOP or whatever, now people seem to vehemently defend it.

My opinion on this is probably unpopular, but I think instant gratification is destroying a lot of what makes games fun. RANDOM PROCS! RANDOM STATS! RANDOM ILVL GAIN! WOO!
24/10/2018 08:38Posted by Alronius
That's not the point. Fact is: OP put in way more work for his loot and he was rewarded for it and then some.
No, that IS the point. Doing a +7 may be the same level of effort for some people as a M0 is for others. There is no way of knowing so there is no way of judging people unworthy when a game isn't based on YOUR standards. One cannot be unfair if the other is not because your logic is completely subjective, you cannot make a concession for one and not the other. Sorry, that's hypocritical and devalues your point.
Means nothing, he still won't even touch mythic raiding even if he 400 ilvl.
24/10/2018 10:44Posted by Solaris
If it drops and DOESN'T war or titanforge - Oh, cool I guess. Gotta run it again to get that BIS item.
No, you got that BiS item. There is no need to keep farming for WF or TF. That's your problem, not a system flaw.
https://ibb.co/d1uzd0 this is even better though.
24/10/2018 10:44Posted by Solaris
...

Again how is getting a drop or no drop different than getting a drop or a TF drop?


You have a goal - you know what you want, where it drops. You can target it.

If it drops - awesome, you got what you wanted. It feels great.
If it doesn't - damn, try again another time or at reset

If it drops and DOESN'T war or titanforge - Oh, cool I guess. Gotta run it again to get that BIS item.


No that is wrong. You are targetting that 370/385, if you get it you should be happy. If it Titanforges that is just a nice little bonus.

The baseline is 370/385, not 380/395. This is a mentality problem on your side.
24/10/2018 10:53Posted by Naurissa
24/10/2018 10:44Posted by Solaris
If it drops and DOESN'T war or titanforge - Oh, cool I guess. Gotta run it again to get that BIS item.
No, you got that BiS item. There is no need to keep farming for WF or TF. That's your problem, not a system flaw.


Of course it's a system flaw.

If you're happy not having the best gear that's fine.

Having the best gear used to be an achievable GOAL people set for themselves. Now it's impossible. You literally cannot reach that goal because of Titanforging.

I used to have many goals - get the full tier set, etc. What goal do I have now for itemization? there are no goals, there's no tier sets, there's nothing to achieve.

I'll accept it's a mentality issue of not being satisfied that I can never truly get the best gear possible. Fine, that's a flaw on my end.
24/10/2018 01:24Posted by Marinkonk
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/230064214218244097/504446185596125185/unknown.png

Guy went in mythic 0 as a 260 ilvl and got this.How is this even possible?Whats the point of hardcore raiding if you can get 380 gear from m0 dungeons.


Is that a bug ? can it even TF so high ? loL Wtf
24/10/2018 01:39Posted by Tymaar
The odds are extremely small
Dis, mon
I think people need to stop with the fallacy of thinking they can get bis gear anymore.
No, that IS the point. Doing a +7 may be the same level of effort for some people as a M0 is for others. There is no way of knowing so there is no way of judging people unworthy when a game isn't based on YOUR standards. One cannot be unfair if the other is not because your logic is completely subjective, you cannot make a concession for one and not the other. Sorry, that's hypocritical and devalues your point.
Yes it can as long as you don't equate the one thing to the other one thing

What you are suggesting here is that some players should get ilvl loot equal to +7 from +0 because a +0 is just as hard for them as a +7 is for others, do you not understand why different gradations of competence exist or even where they come from? competence differs on the individual level and rewards that are not aimed at the competence but at compliance is a net loss in statisfaction to the human psyche in the long run, the 5 seconds of that dopamine spike from a high titanforged

I'm not saying that those are your words nor am I trying to put words in your mouth, you probably didn't even intend to say anything close to what I wrote down but that is what you are indirectly claiming with texts like these

What you are doing is dangerous, you are trying to remove method of definition from the many and you're trying to push it onto the individual, a good biblical example (not religious but tales of wisdom) of what happens when you do that for too long is the story of the tower of Babel, where nobody understood eachother because one person's definition of an object no longer matched anyone else's definitions
24/10/2018 10:15Posted by Solaris
I don't consider myself elitist or hardcore, I put a few hours in after work every day.

"I dont consider myself hardcore" ......"a few hours every day".........
You guys are missing the point. I am not envyus or anything. The game is turning into a !@#$ing casino. Do you want gambling game or you want to fairly rewarded for your efforts? Enough with this bull%^-* rng. If you want titanforging in some way make it with profession. Rng is killing the mmorpg experience of this game(if there is something left of it)
24/10/2018 11:25Posted by Kamazh
I think people need to stop with the fallacy of thinking they can get bis gear anymore.


No one thinks this because it isn't possible and I think that's a big problem. I liked going for BIS gear and a lot of other people did too.

24/10/2018 11:30Posted by Uvireath
24/10/2018 10:15Posted by Solaris
I don't consider myself elitist or hardcore, I put a few hours in after work every day.

"I dont consider myself hardcore" ......"a few hours every day".........


I mean, I enjoy the game.

If 2-3 hours per evening is 'hardcore' then surely all definition of that word is lost.
24/10/2018 10:40Posted by Gannet
24/10/2018 10:33Posted by Tsjoh
Without TF he now had a certain upgrade. TF is removing so many happy moments.


So let's say it was a certain upgrade now but next week gets an item for that slot again. Is it still the fault of titanforge?
Also how does this even matter, the end result is the same. At the end of the day, with or without titanforge, you still have a person with 355 in all slots and 1 slot with 380/390.

Seriously the amount of things blamed on titanforge, it's almost a running joke by now.

Both WF/TF and slot machine system are issues in gearing system.

In past, I had clear path how to gear my char. Baby steps, feeling my char growing in power to be able to do harder content to get better items and so on.
Now there's no clear path. It's annoying and discourage to play.

To keep it simple:
Imagine putting effort fills the bar called EFFORT.
Receiving reward resets EFFORT and fills bar JOY based on quality of reward and EFFORT consumed (whichever is lower).
When in TBC I worked towards getting Bulwark of Azzinoth on my warrior that was long journey and required A LOT effort (fire resistance set, keeping def cap, keeping hit cap, def stats, progressing through T4/T5/T6). I stored a lot EFFORT and when I finally got my precious shield that was the most epic feeling I've ever had in WoW - cause reward was equal to effort put.
Now - I can't aim for anything. I store EFFORT by doing M+, PvP, sometimes heroic/mythic Uldir. I finished M+10 sweating (holy pala + grievous + undergeared group), now time for reward - azerite power. Reward quality = 1/100, effort put = 100/100. Reset to 0. Disappointment. Ok, I have guaranteed reward from M+ chest.
Weekly chest time! Opened - [Cloak of Useless Stats], 5 ilvl upgrade with versa/mastery (two worst stats for me), instead feeling joy, I constantly feel like I'm wasting my time.
Doing M+0 - I put almost no effort in that playing like a monkey. Boom, lucky titanforged 380 belt. Ummm, ok?

Someone said, I shouldn't aim for items and instead play the game. Ok, right, but gearing my char is also part of fun in this game (at least it used to be). I enjoy PvP and M+ with my friends, but if I had to do this content without people I know, I really doubt if I would still play.

Gearing system is complete garbage, I'm not talking only about titanforging now. If they won't change it in next xpac then many, many, MANY people won't keep playing this.
24/10/2018 11:31Posted by Marinkonk
You guys are missing the point. I am not envyus or anything. The game is turning into a !@#$ing casino. Do you want gambling game or you want to fairly rewarded for your efforts? Enough with this bull%^-* rng. If you want titanforging in some way make it with profession. Rng is killing the mmorpg experience of this game(if there is something left of it)


The game had a ton of RNG when it was at it's peak (late TBC - peak WOTLK). It became less and less over the years with token vendors, guaranteed loot, badluck protection.

Your statement makes no sense.
24/10/2018 01:47Posted by Dejarous
How exactly is the game ruined because of things like this?


How indeed?
Maybe 260 ilvl can steal a mythic 15 spot because his io score instantly bumped to 1000? Or mythic/heroic raid spot? Oh, I know, this lucky and undeserving guy will now get realm first! Oh boy, titanforge can ruin this game...

Cry more. Who are you to judge and say someone does not deserve a few pixels we call "items"?

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