Community? Not in WoW.

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11/01/2012 15:17Posted by Tieena
The bottom line is that the OP is right. Cross-realm everything might have had a lot of positives, but it definitely had some downsides as well. Some acknowledgement of this from Blizzard's end would be great, instead of just hearing how awesome it is that such huge numbers of dungeons are being run every day.

So much this. So what if more dungeons are being run every day, what are the reasons for this? Valor Points? The now sanctioned over-valuation of loot and item level? People aren't necessarily doing all those extra dungeons because they want to, they've been allowed to become a necessary means to an end, rather than left as an end in and of themselves purely in order to promote their use to bring those figures up. That philosophy isn't I think a healthy one, because people who don't really want to be there and are just feeling pressed into it by the nature of the system are the ones who toxify it.
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective. The continued popularity of the cross-realm LFD tool, and now the LFR, indicates that a great number of players are just fine with using it for quicker access, rather than attempting to group up with people on the same realm.

Also, implying that every group in LFD/LFR is filled with people you'd gladly never group up with again is exaggerating the actual situation. There are many of us who use the tools a lot, and rarely experience this.

Having said all that, the future BattleTag system will go a long way to improving the ability to build and maintain cross-realm friendships, eliminating the need to fill groups with as many 'randoms'.

why? because a longer queue time would most definitely be preferable to waiting 10-20 minutes for what can only be described as a brain meltingly bad time with a bunch of nuisance players who can do what they want and NEVER suffer any backlash from the servers community

an extra 10-15 minutes per queue for a community that can once again tell greedy and uncouth players to gt*o again? oh dear god yes! yes please!! where do i sign for this???


I would rather say that it is FORTUNATE that it is a subjective opinion, because otherwise it would mean LF-tools are actually a bad thing.... ;-)

I hardly do any dungeons so I can't speak about what people you are grouped with from own experience. I do know however, that a lot in the game has changed in the players. The playerbase has grown immensly compared to the beginning, meaning a lot more different people with different plans, desires and dedication are all in the same game now. "Back in the days" you had to be in a guild to do a dungeon or raid, until the PUGging showed up. Finding a group that way usually took pretty long because first you had to find people looking for the same dungeon/raid, then they had to be the right role, then they had to get to the dungeon and in each of those steps things went wrong and took time so that often it took more time to get a group to actually start then it took to run the instance. Not even to mention what happened if you lost a group member for whatever reason.

After the biggest expansion in the playerbase Blizzard recognized a possibility to free us from that often difficult task of getting a group together by combining all those players on all those servers looking for a group. If you see what the LF-tools save us in time and effort it is a pretty great tool.

I do agree that it doesn't support the "together" feeling. It is not that the LF-tools have created that problem but they sure helped "spread the disease". I think it is an additude that comes with a much larger playerbase anyway, and it is also a consequence of the anonymity of being on the www.

However, i do feel a lot of people just take the easy road and then complain it is all bad and they have no other options. In life, every decision has consequences. Usually, choosing the easy way has some kind of negative consequence, mostly the fact that you loose the feeling of having to work for something. Also, I believe that a lot of people help maintain the "problem" by giving in to it. "You only get idiots in these groups" isn't a very good starting position because it makes you start from negativity. Expectations have a nack of fulfilling themselves, so if you are looking for problems, you will probably find them. You could also use the LF with an open mind and positive attitude. The chance that you won't immediately see "bad things" happening, even if someone screws up.

Since there are also a lot of people enjoying the instances and battlegrounds it can't all be bad so you can still get "good people" in your groups. And the BNet- ID Tagging or whatever will only improve that.

But to get back to decisions: no one is forced to decide to use the LF. Getting a group the old fashioned way is still possible, and will still take a lot more effort. If you really feel that you only get bad groups through LF, why use it? No one is forcing anyone to do something. People should take a little more responsability for their own lives, although it is sooooo easy to put the problem on someone else...
@OP

Servers are just technical barriers and not the holy grail of all things. And these people who complain about community, don`t they have a guild ? Also, some time ago there were significantly less people interested in raiding overall since raids were not friendly at all, it was always some time consuming stuff that would burn people who wanted to see content but couldn`t put the time.

Back then there were few raiding guilds so ofc you knew who was better. On Neptulon on Alliance side I think there were around 6-7 guilds that you would call decent, now there are many more and ofc no one can remember 25 guilds.

A community is people with who you share some common goals, tastes, people you can have fun with and generally spend time. You can do that with a guild and ofc out of guild too but generally in a guild. There are many more guilds now so the community sense is all there. There are leveling guilds, there are "casual" guilds, there are raiding guilds and progression raiding guilds, etc. There is a whole array of people so for someone who is interested to up his game and find someone closer to his goals there are solutions out there, there are communities.

A community can be built around a goal but it won`t happen during a dungeon or even a pug raid. A community grows or dies because of what happens in-between and that requires time also, which many don`t have. People that come after their jobs don`t have as much time as before they didn`t have one or when they studied so the LFD and LFR allows them to be prepared for end game as good as they can. If you are interested only in LFD and LFR you don`t need a community, but you didn`t need that before they were introduced either. LFR especially its for more of a solo playstyle and its used by the rest to gather some stuff they can use while raiding.

The nostalgia of looking for heroics is rather silly. I played a DPS back then and it was horrific to wait and find a party. If I didn`t start one, with a tank or healer from the guild, I would have no chance of even doing more than 2 a day. The waiting was painful since it had little to do with my capability of playing but rather to the class I was stuck in. I decided to roll a healer mostly because of that, because I could find a party faster with a tank/healer class.

I might know only the first 2-3 guilds on my server and not all and that is just fine. As many who still play they have a community in which they play and if someone doesn`t there is for sure one out there. I think the ideal should be no physical limitations but that won`t happen anytime soon. If you want to be a part of a community you`ll surely find one. Making a dozen threads about the lack of it is a personal experience, which is valid from your pov, but utterly fails when you make more out of it then a personal experience.
From a personal experience and being in the same guild with many people from September 2005 I saw a lot of people and let me tell you something, not many are that social to being with. Not many have the same views or goals as you so in fact you have no community to build there with people, even if U know them or not. In LFD I saw more people being nice and chatting, the little that it happens, than the ones being jerks. In WOTLK Beta I met only nice people on a random server I had joined. So there are people out there that you can find a common thing to build a community. If you aren`t in one then you are very specific and obnoxious about it or you didn`t search.

The world community is always about you, your community. If its not about you, why does it matter about what other people are doing ? I`m sure that there are very nice people outside Neptulon so being on this server isn`t the most extraordinary thing, it just happened and as in all places, you`ll find people with who you can connect and some with who you can`t. If you don`t have a community around you I`m afraid its only your fault and not Blizzard or whoever you want to blame for your personal shortcomings.

And since the "game who should not be named" community came into discussion here with the no LFD or LFD with realm only. From a personal experience and from a community I was apart which plays MMO I can tell you that most folks I knew who plays that game started and quited every other MMO and everytime they jumped the boat so I wouldn`t make to much of that community since it will soon fall apart just like it did before since MMO are played by humans and not robots. Personally I wouldn`t want to make part of that community and I am not. Some are eternally not content or its just not their thing so catering to those people can only be the doom. Gladly, Blizzard took the other way which has its disadvantages but at least it lets you enjoy all the aspects of the game and its about you and the time you want to invest that will take you further.

Not many with who I play today can afford to spend 4 hours ingame everyday anymore and LFD and LFR didn`t destroy the guild at all. In fact many people came back for Cataclysm because the system allowed them to play what they want when they wanted at the level they wanted. No more silly gating, silly setup requirements, silly attunements or all that stuff. They are good players that only have something more important to do then ask for a party for 1 hour when there is no one in guild that can help at that time. The game is going into a good direction, maybe not as fast paced as it was before since I`m sure enthusiasm is not as high but at least for me I feel I can do more things that I want and I pay for.

PS: Oh and the +1 posts at the beginning of the thread are just ridiculous. That is for guild shoutbox website not for the WoW forums. Anywhere else those would have been deleted as nonsense. Its like the "like" phenomenon where every zombie can click a button and believe he did something important from the comfort of his chair.
The bottom line is that the OP is right. Cross-realm everything might have had a lot of positives, but it definitely had some downsides as well. Some acknowledgement of this from Blizzard's end would be great, instead of just hearing how awesome it is that such huge numbers of dungeons are being run every day.

So much this. So what if more dungeons are being run every day, what are the reasons for this? Valor Points? The now sanctioned over-valuation of loot and item level? People aren't necessarily doing all those extra dungeons because they want to, they've been allowed to become a necessary means to an end, rather than left as an end in and of themselves purely in order to promote their use to bring those figures up. That philosophy isn't I think a healthy one, because people who don't really want to be there and are just feeling pressed into it by the nature of the system are the ones who toxify it.


No one is forced to run all those dungeons to race to gear. That is a decision each player makes themselves. No matter what Blizzard will come up with, people will always find a negative way to see it, because that is easier than standing by your own choices and accepting the concequences.

Blizzard has done what the players asked for. Players wanted easier access to gear because it all took too much time. As a consequence Blizzard acommodated that and now people race to that gear, to race trough the content to complain there is nothing to do. You can still do all things the "old" way, you can still do all the questing and find your own groups and get your points and marks that way. It is not mandatory to get the best gear as soon as possible, that is a free choice. There are no "necessary" means to an end, they are merely POSSIBLE means...

People all forget that they should play a game for entertainment and enjoyment, not "because they have to"... If you are not playing for yourself, because you like doing that, then you are really doing something wrong...
11/01/2012 14:01Posted by Takralus
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective. The continued popularity of the cross-realm LFD tool, and now the LFR, indicates that a great number of players are just fine with using it for quicker access, rather than attempting to group up with people on the same realm.


While true it doesn't mean that all of these people are enjoying it though :(

It might just be the nostalgia, but apart from time involved with setting up a group from trade-chat/general in order to venture in to Scholomance, the experience once it was in progress/completed was awesome. This is something that newer players won't experience and i can't really blame them for not trying. It wouldn't hurt to add an incentive that much would it? (perhaps a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries for each player).

A good community breathes longevity into this game in my opinion (and from experience).
11/01/2012 15:59Posted by Cìd
Blizzard has done what the TERRIBADS asked for. TERRIBADS wanted easier access to gear because it all took too much time.


Fixed.


This is true, and i back this statement up.
11/01/2012 14:01Posted by Takralus
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective. The continued popularity of the cross-realm LFD tool, and now the LFR, indicates that a great number of players are just fine with using it for quicker access

There's a Russian saying: "The mice were sticking themselves, crying, but kept eating the cactus." Or something like that.
11/01/2012 15:47Posted by Greena
I saw a lot of people and let me tell you something, not many are that social to being with. Not many have the same views or goals as you so in fact you have no community to build there with people


This sounds like the people you get grouped with in the LFX systems. You are correct to think they should be avoided in guilds or on servers aswell.



11/01/2012 15:52Posted by Aerea
No one is forced to


Oh please, this tired argument is used to derail game discussion everywhere since it can be applied mostly anywhere with such ease. "Why dont you quit the game then?". You obviously lack the motivation or inclination to make a productive post about the issues raised, so why both?

I have not ventured into the forums for a long time. To see that it is still such a place where veiled trolling and competition of hollow prides are taking the place of contructive discussion make me sad. I will again distance myself from this, so go ahead and take some last words. They should make you feel better.
11/01/2012 15:20Posted by Beloresin
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective.
Because your realm transfer service suck, because you don't even dare to listen about the WHOLE DEAD SERVER ? Because this is what you really want.....


Agree with this, more and more realms are going low on pop and it sucks, especially for things like pugging (in before LFR) and Auction House. To basically get half the things you want you have to transfer an alt to another realm, buy it there and then transfer back. -.-
Yes. "Dead realms" are a problem that LFR/LFD won`t ever fix since the economy of the server is screwed up, the same with server imbalance. That is a true problem that Blizzard handled very bad. When I say handled I think its an overstatement, they acknowledged it and did nothing with no hope that it will get fixed in the future. Hopefully they`ll have something prepared for Mists of Pandaria since even with that I don`t think there will be enough new players to fill those servers up. I think people on those servers will be happy to find a better place even if that comes with people sounding the doom of Warcraft, silly thinking that a MMO can only go up, nothing does.

But that is another subject that was addressed by Blizzard already in an unhelpful way, be it because of technical reasons or not. That needs to be fixed but there seems, and I underline seems, that they don`t want to do anything about it at the moment. That can hurt them I think.


So much this. So what if more dungeons are being run every day, what are the reasons for this? Valor Points? The now sanctioned over-valuation of loot and item level? People aren't necessarily doing all those extra dungeons because they want to, they've been allowed to become a necessary means to an end, rather than left as an end in and of themselves purely in order to promote their use to bring those figures up. That philosophy isn't I think a healthy one, because people who don't really want to be there and are just feeling pressed into it by the nature of the system are the ones who toxify it.


No one is forced to run all those dungeons to race to gear. That is a decision each player makes themselves. No matter what Blizzard will come up with, people will always find a negative way to see it, because that is easier than standing by your own choices and accepting the concequences.

Blizzard has done what the players asked for. Players wanted easier access to gear because it all took too much time. As a consequence Blizzard acommodated that and now people race to that gear, to race trough the content to complain there is nothing to do. You can still do all things the "old" way, you can still do all the questing and find your own groups and get your points and marks that way. It is not mandatory to get the best gear as soon as possible, that is a free choice. There are no "necessary" means to an end, they are merely POSSIBLE means...

People all forget that they should play a game for entertainment and enjoyment, not "because they have to"... If you are not playing for yourself, because you like doing that, then you are really doing something wrong...

Let's say for argument I'm levelling a Shaman, because I am. I honestly don't mind levelling, it allows you the opportunity to learn things about the character piece by piece without bombarding you with everything all at once. However, I want to raid on that Shaman, but once I get to 85 I'll be gear gated from the raid system I want to use for it. Tell me how, without entering an endless chain of "heroic" instances I can get past that gear gate? I can't, it's impossible even with vast sums of gold, which in turn can only be obtained by a 'grind' of some description. Everyone has that problem, and it's the nature of the 'progressive' design of 'Normal -> Heroic -> Raid'. It's putting people in places they clearly don't want to be, and it's no surprise when people are less forgiving when put into those situations.

Again, the problem here is gear inflation, and the over-valuation of gear itself. Something sanctioned by the now internal 'gearscore' system that became so toxic during Wrath. I'd be much happier with a system whereby 5 mans, 10 mans and 25 mans had much more parity, because the challenge in and of itself in defeating an encounter is what I play for. 'Lower level' content does nothing for me, and I resent the necessity in having to go back through it for each and every alt just to get to the point I want to be at. Back in TBC, Heroic modes were introduced to bring in a kind of parity with raids for the 5 man content in order to keep them fresh. Wrath saw them nerfed into becoming just a part of gear progression, and Cata has now seen them removed in all but name, but MoP will see them reintroduced under a new label, 'Challenge Modes', and while I welcome that, it does seem a strange situation to have landed in in the first place.
11/01/2012 15:09Posted by Takralus
On the contrary, I never said it's the perfect system, I was simply offering a different point of view. We're always looking for feedback and ways to improve our features. Player feedback regarding dungeon groups and long wait-times contributed to the development of the dungeon finder tool in the first place. Now, in response to new feedback, BattleTags will address some of the issues players currently face when meeting potential friends on different realms :)


I understand that cross realm LFD was part of Blizzard's fix for underpopulated faction/realms, but by insulating players from the consequences of their actions, it has broken a much more important part of the game - meeting people in dungeon groups, getting to know them, and perhaps adding them to a friend list or ending up in the same guild as them. As such, the cure is worse than the disease.

Which I wrote... a year ago. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1549667832?page=1


Piling on a new short term, short sighted fix in order to deal with the consequences of a previous short term, short sighted fix isn't a good thing to do in the long term.

If you do meet someone decent in LFG, perhaps you'll add them to your "Battle.Net tag" where you wouldn't have RealId'd them before... but I can't imagine why I'd ever whisper them, and it's not going to make much difference. I'd be very weirded out if someone I'd done a random with yesterday whispered me today.

Before LFD, if I had a good experience with someone in a dungeon, next time I saw them in /1 or /2 shouting "LFM", I'd think "yeah, they're alright... I wasn't planning to do a dungeon, but I will do with them", and after a couple of good experiences you might add them to the friends list, and after that you might throw them a guild invite.

There are people who I liked a lot and got on with well who realm transferred away. Before they left I added them on RealId, but I don't have much to say to them any more. We're not on the same server, not in the same guild, we don't raid together - it would feel weird to whisper them and say "pst - wanna do a dungeon?". If what was a good relationship based on being guildmates can't survive a server transfer, what earthly good is a Battle.Net tag supposed to do?
11/01/2012 15:57Posted by Kanx
Unfortunately, that opinion is very subjective. The continued popularity of the cross-realm LFD tool, and now the LFR, indicates that a great number of players are just fine with using it for quicker access, rather than attempting to group up with people on the same realm.


While true it doesn't mean that all of these people are enjoying it though :(

It might just be the nostalgia, but apart from time involved with setting up a group from trade-chat/general in order to venture in to Scholomance, the experience once it was in progress/completed was awesome. This is something that newer players won't experience and i can't really blame them for not trying. It wouldn't hurt to add an incentive that much would it? (perhaps a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries for each player).

A good community breathes longevity into this game in my opinion (and from experience).


No, unfortunately some people don't always enjoy the groups they find themselves in through the Dungeon Finder. But do you believe limiting the pool of players to your own realm, or offering an incentive to manually search for your own group will solve this?

Finishing a dungeon with a great group before the Dungeon Finder tool was available was indeed a fantastic experience, but I personally still get that feeling now when I'm grouped with a nice bunch of people.

We're not dismissing your thoughts here by the way, please continue the discussion :)
my thoughts exactly Stark

but i agree that it would be a drastic change to remove that system.

perhaps if a battle group was created with only one realm on it, and those who prefer the old method of grouping moved there.



While true it doesn't mean that all of these people are enjoying it though :(

It might just be the nostalgia, but apart from time involved with setting up a group from trade-chat/general in order to venture in to Scholomance, the experience once it was in progress/completed was awesome. This is something that newer players won't experience and i can't really blame them for not trying. It wouldn't hurt to add an incentive that much would it? (perhaps a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries for each player).

A good community breathes longevity into this game in my opinion (and from experience).


No, unfortunately some people don't always enjoy the groups they find themselves in through the Dungeon Finder. But do you believe limiting the pool of players to your own realm, or offering an incentive to manually search for your own group will solve this?

Finishing a dungeon with a great group before the Dungeon Finder tool was available was indeed a fantastic experience, but I personally still get that feeling now when I'm grouped with a nice bunch of people.

We're not dismissing your thoughts here by the way, please continue the discussion :)


Sadly i don't im afraid - but i suppose that's going down the path of discussing the current difficulty of 5 mans.

I'm hoping the Challenge mode dungeons will live up to my expectations. On the back of that, is it known if this will have a 'LFD' option or even a local server based LFG tool? (could be a good way to meet new people on your server when you're not running it with your guild)

edit: I also do believe that being able to pick and choose your group would increase the chance of you enjoying/succeeding in your dungeon - i.e. being able to not group with the Paladin named 'Angeldemonhunterx' from <defenders of light> wearing full PvP gear.
11/01/2012 16:26Posted by Takralus


While true it doesn't mean that all of these people are enjoying it though :(

It might just be the nostalgia, but apart from time involved with setting up a group from trade-chat/general in order to venture in to Scholomance, the experience once it was in progress/completed was awesome. This is something that newer players won't experience and i can't really blame them for not trying. It wouldn't hurt to add an incentive that much would it? (perhaps a Satchel of Exotic Mysteries for each player).

A good community breathes longevity into this game in my opinion (and from experience).


No, unfortunately some people don't always enjoy the groups they find themselves in through the Dungeon Finder. But do you believe limiting the pool of players to your own realm, or offering an incentive to manually search for your own group will solve this?

Finishing a dungeon with a great group before the Dungeon Finder tool was available was indeed a fantastic experience, but I personally still get that feeling now when I'm grouped with a nice bunch of people.

We're not dismissing your thoughts here by the way, please continue the discussion :)

That feeling was because success wasn't guaranteed. You had to work together, to communicate. Now, success expected without so much as a 'Hi' on /p. Anything short of that frustrates people. Why? Because the only reason they're there is to get that gear to get into a raid or their VPs to convert to CPs to improve their PvP gear, not for the sake of doing the dungeon itself. It's all gear, gear, gear, gear...

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