we consume content too fast?

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03/08/2012 09:25Posted by Tieena
I think that's fair enough, but you have to agree that it is at least relevant to the topic at hand. It shouldn't usurp the main discussion though, but it bears mention and should be able to be brought up without anyone going into lockdown mode.


Fair enough, what I meant is, please don't turn it into the main topic of the thread. Makes sense now? :-)
03/08/2012 09:35Posted by Draztal
I think that's fair enough, but you have to agree that it is at least relevant to the topic at hand. It shouldn't usurp the main discussion though, but it bears mention and should be able to be brought up without anyone going into lockdown mode.


Fair enough, what I meant is, please don't turn it into the main topic of the thread. Makes sense now? :-)


Right, and I agree! This thread is too important to be lost to a different topic.
03/08/2012 01:49Posted by Anvarra
It isn't like people haven't given feedback on the problem issues, either, but Great Leader knows best and will continue his Reign of Error (e.g. No Choice Quest Rewards say 'hi').


I agree with this. They keep saying they want us to make choices in game and play the game in the manner we like. However, more and more is the game being played for us and we have to do less and less ourselves (e.g. LFR, "go AFK and Get Your Free Epics" and the above mentioned lame "No Choice Quest Rewards")

I think this also highly contributes to the feeling of having too little content and "consuming it" too fast.
On topic: I sometimes wonder if it would be best to have the main storylines be resolved in 5-man dungeons and have raids be all about major military operations parallell to those. Like, for example, if the Lich King was defeated by a small "elite strike force" in the Halls of Reflection, and the ICC raid would've been all about dismantling his dangerous war machine to provide protection and a distraction for the small strike force.

It would have some downsides, certainly, but also some positives. If those sorts of 5-man dungeons were on a lockout (perhaps 3 days like ZA/ZG of old, or 5 days like Onyxia?), not part of the random dungeon rotation and more difficult than the regular dungeons (but not excruciatingly so) they could still provide a satisfying challenge to overcome and would allow everyone to finish the story without necessarily having to "cheapen" the challenge of raids.

I don't know. I haven't thought it over that much. It's a difficult topic. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on it though, I think it could have some potential.


Charming idea. I guess after having ran it a few times the rewards will be what gets people to keep running them though, so that will be tricky in relation to the raiddrops.

It might to having less of a feeling of 'epicness' for raid endbosses though. I was quite pleased with killing the LK after a sufficient amount of wipes not just because the way it was tuned but also because of the story line.

Having different content on different lockouts sounds very interesting. I think your ideas have potential!
On topic: I sometimes wonder if it would be best to have the main storylines be resolved in 5-man dungeons and have raids be all about major military operations parallell to those. Like, for example, if the Lich King was defeated by a small "elite strike force" in the Halls of Reflection, and the ICC raid would've been all about dismantling his dangerous war machine to provide protection and a distraction for the small strike force.

It would have some downsides, certainly, but also some positives. If those sorts of 5-man dungeons were on a lockout (perhaps 3 days like ZA/ZG of old, or 5 days like Onyxia?), not part of the random dungeon rotation and more difficult than the regular dungeons (but not excruciatingly so) they could still provide a satisfying challenge to overcome and would allow everyone to finish the story without necessarily having to "cheapen" the challenge of raids.

I don't know. I haven't thought it over that much. It's a difficult topic. I'd love to hear people's thoughts on it though, I think it could have some potential.


Charming idea. I guess after having ran it a few times the rewards will be what gets people to keep running them though, so that will be tricky in relation to the raiddrops.

It might to having less of a feeling of 'epicness' for raid endbosses though. I was quite pleased with killing the LK after a sufficient amount of wipes not just because the way it was tuned but also because of the story line.

Having different content on different lockouts sounds very interesting. I think your ideas have potential!


Thanks. :)

The reduced feeling of 'epicness' for raids is definitely one of the downsides, I agree. If Sindragosa had been the last raid boss of ICC but had gotten the Lich King-final boss fight-treatment in terms of epicness, would that have been enough?

Rewards are another tricky topic. I shouldn't get into that though, as I think the entire gearing model is broken right now. ;)
below is a post I made regarding classic realms, i think it fits nicely into this thread also

People dont want Vanilla servers and TBC servers, they want that game model

You start at the bottom and work to the top, even at the end of the expansion. Take for example now, you can ding 85, go to the AH buy a few peices of gear to fudge the ilvl, and que for Twilight HC's or LFR. There is no reason to do old HC's (unless your achievement hunting / mount farming) and certainly no reason to do the likes of BWD, BoT, TotFW and FL for excatly the same reasons.

Contrary to belief I very much doubt that the majority of players in wow want to be spoon fed, you should at least learn to walk before you start aiming for gold at the olympics. This all in all is the reason why the community is the way it is and why the standard of player base are how they are.

It is not nostalgia they seek, it is what made wow great they seek, which is structured progression, with no short cuts.

If short cuts are to be made it should be right at the end of the expansion after the notable end expansion boss / raid has been cleared. That is when you should open the floodgates for everyone to see the content.
This thread subject worries me, but the official responses, although appriciated, worry me even more.

It feels just like....defending something you have experienced and are still experiencing evey day to someone who can make a difference and improve it, but he just doesnt want to hear it.

Arguably the most frustrating thing in life.
I will try to bring up a question from the Conference that is very closely related to the topic of this thread.

In the last years the gaming industry shrunk by 33%, but the biggest names in the increased their sales with 13%. This means people are less likely to experiment and prefer to choose the big names as less risky and with more value.

The person asked why Activision-Blizzard are focusing on Mobile platforms (Skylanders and Pet Battles for mobiles) when previous experience with casual platforms Wii games and Facebook games turned out very bad. The person asked why they chase the casual players instead of focusing on keeping the more loyal and lasting gamers.

I liked that question, but i don't remember Blizzard's answer. It was very dodgy and i was half asleep :S
It has to be realised, I think a massive part of enjoyment (for all raiders) is being able to show off titles/achievements/gear for downing the harder content. The point is ,(and why a lot of people get frustrated about the nerfs), if you're nerfing hard content, the people who killed it post-nerf can wave around the same titles/gear/whatever. With a few of the replies saying "how does it affect YOUR gaming experience?", I don't think the idea that people want to show off to players less progressed has quite been grasped, and is in fact the very reason people (me included) get pretty annoyed. The feats are an improvement to this I guess, but they should have some other reward attached to them like a mount in my opinion! ^^
03/08/2012 09:17Posted by Draztal
I was really hoping that the subs topic would stay out of this thread at the risk of it getting locked.

Since you mention it, yes, if the topic changes towards that, we'll have to lock it and ask you to post in the existing thread that covers it.


I wonder if such censure would be in place had the subs risen by 1.1 million. I think its fair enough to want to keep the thread on topic but implying that it might get locked if people allude to the loss in subs as a direct consequence of game design and the core philosophy is more than a bit rich. Its a bit like trying to debate racism without mentioning the colour of someone's skin.
Staying on topic I would like to know (Blue posters too) You don't have to give dates but when did you / your guild kill heroic DW. 0% 5% 10% etc?

Are you happy at the speed it took you to kill him, was you even in full epic gems? / full heroic gear - trinket / weapons?

My guild (when I was on my rogue Taishici if you do not believe me) got the kill on the 7th of Feb, 2 months after the release and the week of the 5% nerf. Only one guild on our server got it per nerf (who have now disbanded and are world rank 37 and the 20th 25man guild to kill him)

Every week we was shaving off more damage on the tendon as we got more gear. we shaved off even more when we dropped our locks and hunters and loaded the raid with mages and rogues, Our problem was the first lift of the 3rd plate and keeping people alive.

But as for you (blues too) What was your "Wall" before then nerf that stopped you getting the kill and what wall % was it?
lets take a look at this schedule shall we?

September 25: MoP launches
October 2: Mogu'shan Vaults (normal) opens
October 7: Mogu'shan Vaults (LFR) opens, those who cleared normal Vaults can access heroic mode
October 30: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (normal) open, with Terrace only accessible by clearing Heart
November 6: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (LFR) open; queuing for Terrace requires clearing Heart. Those who cleared normal Heart can access heroic Heart, same for Terrace.

as my son (Lambey) pointed out a number of times, releasing LFR this early into a patch means content gets done on week 2 its out.
personally me AND my son feel the schedule needs to be adjusted to the following:

September 25: MoP launches
October 2: Mogu'shan Vaults (normal) opens
October 7: those who cleared normal Vaults can access heroic mode
October 30: Heart of Fear and Terrace of Endless Spring (normal) open, with Terrace only accessible by clearing Heart. LFR difficulty for Mogu'shan Vaults opens.
November 6: Those who cleared normal Heart can access heroic Heart, same for Terrace.
November 27: Lfr for Heart Opens.
December 11: Lfr for Terrace Opens.

This means that even a month later, the content has NOT been burnt out by the casual gamers. it also allows raiders to feel somewhat superior as they are seeing content others arent, while also providing incentive for players to at least TRY normal mode raids!


If others want to try and burn the content in two weeks through LFR. How is your gaming experience diminished by it? I can't honestly understand what's the big deal on people that isn't you doing something that you don't want to do. I mean, what could you possibly do when someone that is not you storms Mogu'shan Vaults on the LFR...

Also, I'll remark this:
it also allows raiders to feel somewhat superior as they are seeing content others arent

Perhaps we should just tell the devs that we should close all raids until the Top 10 guilds clear them on heroic, so that they can feel superior to everyone else as they are seeing content that you, the raiders not-as-good-as-them aren't seeing. Does it make sense?
Why does a blue poster does not know about the current state of the expansion?
That actually THERE ARE feats of strength for killing heroic bosses unnerfed in the current state of beta.
And the people I play with are greatly appreciative for this type of recognition.

By the way... How could I, a fairly casual player, know about these and an official representative person of blizzard entertainment just don't? Fascinating!
Why does a blue poster does not know about the current state of the expansion?
That actually THERE ARE feats of strength for killing heroic bosses unnerfed in the current state of beta.
And the people I play with are greatly appreciative for this type of recognition.

By the way... How could I, a fairly casual player, know about these and an official representative person of blizzard entertainment just don't? Fascinating!


If you check my previous replies, you'll see I've mentioned the Cutting Edge feats of strength several posts ago.
If others want to try and burn the content in two weeks through LFR. How is your gaming experience diminished by it? I can't honestly understand what's the big deal on people that isn't you doing something that you don't want to do. I mean, what could you possibly do when someone that is not you storms Mogu'shan Vaults on the LFR...


You should drop the attitude and sarcasm. It's not becoming.

I'll say this: It does affect me. It affects me when people quit because of burnout and boredom and my server becomes a ghost town. Log in to Scarshield Legion and have a look around. Huh. Imagine that.

It affects me when I hypothetically level my monk to 90, queue up for a random dungeon and everyone is already decked out in LFR epics, overgearing the instance. Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

No one plays this game in a bubble. It's not a singleplayer game.

Edit: Oh, and it also has a huge effect on the metagame in which people grow accustomed to the ease of acquiring gear, resisting any change in the other direction and-- oh wait, that already happened for Cataclysm.
Looks like LFR was a huge succes, a 1,1 Mil drop in subs, that's awesome (this is noy counting the anual pass holders that also quit).
Looks like making the game so that anyone who can press a qeue button kinda ruined your main end game, raiding.
You can keep claiming LFR was a huge succes and so many people love it, but the subsciber drop is there. Maybe It wouldn't be bad to create some content for the Better raiders themself (not content that's get cleared within 3 weeks of release, which consist out of 75% rehashed stuff).

You keep saying that you're a Raider yourself etc, but then how can you even say you aren't 'forced to run LFR'? Gear Upgrade is gear upgrade. You do it because you wanna give your 100% to the team, when you want to progress and you don't want to do LFR cause it ruins the raid (which it does, since you see all content the raid has to offer, before clearing it with your guild, as you said yourself, not alot of guilds DS in week 1), then you don't do everything possible for the raid team, this might result in Benching raids, and your team might not be convinced of how motivated you really are.

Now go ahead and ignore this post, just like you did with my other ones, so you don't have to defend yourself and keep replying the same BS arguements.
Looks like LFR was a huge succes, a 1,1 Mil drop in subs, that's awesome (this is noy counting the anual pass holders that also quit).
Looks like making the game so that anyone who can press a qeue button kinda ruined your main end game, raiding.
You can keep claiming LFR was a huge succes and so many people love it, but the subsciber drop is there. Maybe It wouldn't be bad to create some content for the Better raiders themself (not content that's get cleared within 3 weeks of release, which consist out of 75% rehashed stuff).

You keep saying that you're a Raider yourself etc, but then how can you even say you aren't 'forced to run LFR'? Gear Upgrade is gear upgrade. You do it because you wanna give your 100% to the team, when you want to progress and you don't want to do LFR cause it ruins the raid (which it does, since you see all content the raid has to offer, before clearing it with your guild, as you said yourself, not alot of guilds DS in week 1), then you don't do everything possible for the raid team, this might result in Benching raids, and your team might not be convinced of how motivated you really are.

Now go ahead and ignore this post, just like you did with my other ones, so you don't have to defend yourself and keep replying the same BS arguements.


I agree with you.. but you have to remember that WoW have been on the top list for so many years, they wont keep on the top forever and you know that.

But yeah i agree with the LFR system, this game have becomed a singleplayer game instead of the social fun game it used to be
http://p2.bahamut.com.tw/M/2KU/36/0000688036.JPG

This guy.
03/08/2012 11:40Posted by Draztal
Perhaps we should just tell the devs that we should close all raids until the Top 10 guilds clear them on heroic, so that they can feel superior to everyone else as they are seeing content that you, the raiders not-as-good-as-them aren't seeing. Does it make sense?
No, you make no sense. Unless you're one of those with a one track mind and really believe that raiders do it for prestige, gear or rewards. You mention there's many different kind of guilds in terms of progress. Extend that attitude towards what people want out of raiding as well.

Otherwise you're not partaking in a debate but just preaching from axioms, and that's as bad as explaining everything from a religious point of view; since one of the axioms is that non believers are wrong anyways.

Discussion, much more interesting then you telling me why I raid and how I enjoy it.

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