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17/07/2012 13:38Posted by Draztal
And as I said a while ago, the only way to have a proper discussion is to actually see both sides of the coin. Some of the people posting here just refuse to even consider the fact that there's another side of the coin (or if they do, just to demean them).


The problem with the 'other side of the coin' is that there seem to be very few people, outside the Blues, who agree (that we can see via our own experiences or forusm) that LFR and DS nerfage are the pinnacle of WoW.

The argument is currently 'LFR was great because tons of people used it' but we can see that tons of people were effectively forced to use it (and have vocally stated they did not enjoy it) meaning that measure isn't valid.

Give us a player survey saying more people enjoyed LFR than did not, and we can read more into it then - until that point, it's just hot air...
One of the things that frustrate me about you, Draztal, and probably about Blizzard as a whole, is how you're not remotely sympathetic to people who have a different idea of what is good than what Blizzard's current design direction is.


I am sympathetic. And through 81 pages of discussion, I've tried to join a discussion with those players. There're few things that have really been made clear during this thread; and many of my questions and points have either been ignored or discarded, while the thread has mostly kept going on in their reasoning about why things should go in a different direction even when questioned about how things might look from a different perspective.

You could try to understand our points, yet instead you attempt to undermine us at every turn, twisting around our arguments to make it sound like we're a bunch of arrogant jerks who are only interested in being special snowflakes at the expense of other players.


Not at all, but if you want to argue something, there's got to be more flesh to it than "bring TBC back" or "because 1% of raiders seeing the last boss is good" or "because casual players don't deserve what we do".

And as I said a while ago, the only way to have a proper discussion is to actually see both sides of the coin. Some of the people posting here just refuse to even consider the fact that there's another side of the coin (or if they do, just to demean them).


And yet, you ignore my main question.
Why can there not be some content for casuals and some for hardcores?
Why must everything be nerfed so the people who cba or are unable to learn the game, to be able to see the top end, by removing the challenge from those who only enjoy to progress through hard work?
Inbefore making it harder themselves by using bad gear.

I repeat myself again, why is the system not built on WOTLK base + LFR?

LFR, easy and accessible to everyone. (What LFR DS is now)
Normal, challenging to normal raiders. (What Normal Ulduar was)
Heroic, really challenging mode, for those who wish to challenge themselves to the max. (What HC ICC and Ulduar were)

Why?


Not at all, but if you want to argue something, there's got to be more flesh to it than "bring TBC back" or "because 1% of raiders seeing the last boss is good" or "because casual players don't deserve what we do".

And as I said a while ago, the only way to have a proper discussion is to actually see both sides of the coin. Some of the people posting here just refuse to even consider the fact that there's another side of the coin (or if they do, just to demean them).


People want to get a huge reward for killing stuff like Deathwing 25 HC. But to see Wolfstabzor the worgen rogue in BoE PvP gear killing the LFR deathwing doesnt motivate me to kill DW 25 HC AT ALL. We want the abillity to say like "Look, I killed deathwing! I'm good at this game!!" and currently, since everything is nerfed / Pug-able we cant do that right now. I've been against LFG and LFR since release and I think you should consider removing this. Gearing shouldnt be something you can do in 2-3 days. Same thing with PvP. Farm 25k honor in 2 days ish and be geared. Then just do weekly arenas... I want people to see that I put lots of effort into this game and motivate new players to do the same to "have a epic character just like I have". That may sound selfish but thats the reason ive been playing this game for so long, I saw someone with epic gear and a cool weapon a cool title on a cool mount and I was thinking "I WANNA HAVE A CHARACTER JUST LIKE HE DOES!" And I started playing more often. But since Wolfstabzor can grab the gear with 2 week /played makes me wanna quit.
17/07/2012 13:41Posted by Whitebeardo
Except that when pugging, your gear IS their perception of your ability sadly - meaning you must do LFR.

And so gear with the green 'Raid Finder' text shows you're a bad player incapable of obtaining better, right?
LFR is endgame for me. No LFR = no game after clearing heroics. Why LFR is endgame for me? Just because having tier set, weapon and etc., no matter what quality are this items, from current content is enough for me. I don't want to kill the same bosses again and again to get the same items, but with higher stats - it's just pointless. Kill bosses to get gear to be able to kill more bosses, etc...you know. All I need - is a feeling, that I'm participating in raiding too. And that I don't have to look with envy at all this cool raiders. They are talking about bosses, about tactics, about gear, about weapons, about content. And before LFR, all you could do, was to envy and to query this crappy LFD again to get useless valor for gear, that you won't use anyway. Or try to kill 1-2 bosses(or even trash only due to pugging was killed since Cataclysm) with PUGs, hoping purely for good luck. I don't want it to happen again. I'll better quit this game, then realize again, that I'm getting only half or even lesser content.
17/07/2012 13:38Posted by Draztal
One of the things that frustrate me about you, Draztal, and probably about Blizzard as a whole, is how you're not remotely sympathetic to people who have a different idea of what is good than what Blizzard's current design direction is.


I am sympathetic. And through 81 pages of discussion, I've tried to join a discussion with those players. There're few things that have really been made clear during this thread; and many of my questions and points have either been ignored or discarded, while the thread has mostly kept going on in their reasoning about why things should go in a different direction even when questioned about how things might look from a different perspective.

You could try to understand our points, yet instead you attempt to undermine us at every turn, twisting around our arguments to make it sound like we're a bunch of arrogant jerks who are only interested in being special snowflakes at the expense of other players.


Not at all, but if you want to argue something, there's got to be more flesh to it than "bring TBC back" or "because 1% of raiders seeing the last boss is good" or "because casual players don't deserve what we do".

And as I said a while ago, the only way to have a proper discussion is to actually see both sides of the coin. Some of the people posting here just refuse to even consider the fact that there's another side of the coin (or if they do, just to demean them).


Yet I (and others) have done exactly that. Many of us have tried to explain that for us, it is not about being better than "the rest", it is about a sense of accomplishment - whether that takes the form of bosses you haven't seen before in a watered down difficulty, unique-looking equipment as a reward, "graduation" into the next tier of content or simply progression at our own pace instead of the pace Blizzard artificially dictates for us. You don't tend to answer these posts at all, and if you do it is to point out how wrong we are to believe such.

I don't raid anymore, period. I don't really play the game anymore, and it's because for me, all sense of accomplishment and true progression has been removed with the constant gear/tier resets, the continual nerfing and counting more difficulty levels as "more content".
I've always been a stalwart supporter of making more content available to more people; and I still am, but not in the way Blizzard does it.

Yes, I want you to bring back the ideas of TBC, but not necessarily all of them - I want you to bring back a sense of adventure, of storyline, of progression - that beating the final boss of a tier actually means something other than more loot drops with the same boring stats and boring graphics as the rest of the instance. I want to work for my kill, and I want to have the same feeling of accomplishment as when I beat Kael'thas or vanilla Onyxia/Ragnaros the first time. I want you to apply targetted nerfs to instances when it's needed, not blanket nerf everything and expect people to be happy about it. I want you to provide players with the tools necessary to beat the bosses on their own through becoming better at the game, not reward apathy.

But what I want, most of all, is for Blizzard to admit that hey, we might actually have a point somewhere in the midst of our whining, instead of just pretending like we're elitist jerks.
Except that when pugging, your gear IS their perception of your ability sadly - meaning you must do LFR.

And so gear with the green 'Raid Finder' text shows you're a bad player incapable of obtaining better, right?


Of course not. Consider this.

If someone is LFM for DS10 and you only had HoT 378 gear, and a dude with full 384 LFR gear is after the same spot (and you are within reason to all other extents equal) - do you think they would pick you?

That's the point here - you HAD to go LFR in many cases.
My thoughts regarding LFR.

For me, the LFR system really ruined the end of the expansion. I had been looking forward to the Deathwing encounter for a long time since I've always loved the "big dragon" encounters, such as classic Onyxia and Nefarian in BWL. Unfortunately I was unable to play during the Firelands patch due to other commitments, but when the Dragon Soul patch arrived I queued up for the first four bosses. Once we had cleared the first four bosses (I had no idea what was happening, I basically just healed everything that needed healing and the bosses went down), I queued up for the last four bosses. The LFR system placed me in a raid that had already killed the first three bosses so I found myself standing in front of a dying Deathwing without really understanding why. We managed to kill him on our first try and before I knew it I had killed Deathwing - the last boss of the expansion and one of the core characters in Warcraft lore. I was filled by a sudden emptiness so I requeued for Dragon Soul to experience the three bosses before Madness. Once we had one-shotted them I participated in killing Madness again to experience everything in the correct order, but the emptiness remained.

In retrospect, I should have tried to form a guild group and progressed through DS normal instead of ruining everything the way that I did. But unfortunately we didn't have many active players in my guild at the time, and to join a pug I needed the DS achievement or at least Firelands gear. Therefore, LFR was my only option and as such, I guess it is a good compliment to regular raiding if a few improvement are made:

* Loot is way to good if you consider the amount of skill needed to down the bosses. I suggest that blue items (with the appropriate ilvl) drop in LFR to retain the epicness of regular raids (and the epicness of epic items for that matter).
* Have the same lockout for LFR, normal and heroic so I don't have to run LFR every week to maximize my upgrades.
* Disable queuing from cities. Right now, when I'm playing the game, I'm hardly ever leaving Orgrimmar. I've seen a few people die in DS who can't find the entrance to the raid when they are in spirit form... Which is pretty messed up.

My 2 cents.

The 4.3 heroic dungeons and Dragon Soul when the patch was released are a good measure to get an impression on how the content will look difficulty wise.


How can you even say that 4.3 Heroic Dungeons were difficult? It is a rushed over content with boring fights. I could play Spider Solitare while healing through that dungeons.

Now the two Zul Dungeons, those were hard and challanging and fun until you decided to nerf them becuase of too many casuals QQing.
The cata lauch HCs were perfect diffcult wise.
Even an arseburger could finish them if they used brains.
But if you ignore the need of tacs you couldn't get anywhere.
The cata lauch HCs were perfect diffcult wise.
Even an arseburger could finish them if they used brains.
But if you ignore the need of tacs you couldn't get anywhere.


Agreed - lot of fun, good difficulty level! Same for Zuls (initially)
Of course not. Consider this.

If someone is LFM for DS10 and you only had HoT 378 gear, and a dude with full 384 LFR gear is after the same spot (and you are within reason to all other extents equal) - do you think they would pick you?

That's the point here - you HAD to go LFR in many cases.

I'm more discerning, I'd check their armory, gems and enchants and ask them about alts. I guess that's why when I pug it, I always clear.

My 'other' point was though, that the LFR gear is incomparable to the 397s and 410s with the green text, people who care still spot the difference. And when you use it, you can definitely see the difference on Recount/Skada.
The cata lauch HCs were perfect diffcult wise.
Even an arseburger could finish them if they used brains.
But if you ignore the need of tacs you couldn't get anywhere.


I remember when a guildie tank had just dinged 85 and we tried Halls of Origination heroic for the first time. He charged into the first pack and got absolutely decimated and we laughed so hard. The pack wasn't particularly difficult once we used the 2 CCs and interrupts available to us, but eventually it was still nerfed... :(
17/07/2012 13:49Posted by Qtlol
But to see Wolfstabzor the worgen rogue in BoE PvP gear killing the LFR deathwing doesnt motivate me to kill DW 25 HC AT ALL.


Why? He's killing LFR Deathwing. While you're aiming to kill Deathwing on its hardest incarnation available.

So you saying "Look, I killed Heroic Deathwing! I'm good at this game!!" still stands on its own as something remarkable.

17/07/2012 13:49Posted by Qtlol
I've been against LFG and LFR since release and I think you should consider removing this.


Why would we remove something that is popular and that our developers have mentioned several times in the past that they are very happy with their popularity? This "let's punish everyone else because I don't like it" is not really an argument.

By this reasoning, let's go back to MUDs, because those were the true ways of a hardcore player, where you would even end up drawing the dungeon on paper because you weren't sure of where your character was. And you know what? That'll be good for the gamers because we just got it too easy in the 90s with all those 2D graphics and maps.

17/07/2012 13:57Posted by Tieena
Yet I (and others) have done exactly that. Many of us have tried to explain that for us, it is not about being better than "the rest", it is about a sense of accomplishment - whether that takes the form of bosses you haven't seen before in a watered down difficulty, unique-looking equipment as a reward, "graduation" into the next tier of content or simply progression at our own pace instead of the pace Blizzard artificially dictates for us. You don't tend to answer these posts at all, and if you do it is to point out how wrong we are to believe such.


I don't believe you're wrong. But all those arguments have something in common: exclusivity. And that's fine. I mean, it's a valid point and it's feedback I can pass to the developers.
However, at the end of the day, those posts still ignore what I've asked. Why is it such a big deal that other players, in a much longer amount of time, can get what you're getting now?

Why those players that can't devote as much time, or don't have as much skill as you, should be excluded of experiencing content?

Yet you can demand content that is up to your skill level? Why? I mean, they have as much right to demand content fit to their skill level as you have to demand content at your skill level.

If one argument is valid, there's no reasonable way to say the other argument isn't just as valid (if you do, then you're basically arguing that you are more valuable than other players).


The thing is they have content at their level. There are lot of different people playing this game. Not everyone is interested in raiding. I would even go so far as to say that majority of the people is not interested in raiding for one reason or another. And before the latest "improvements" everyone has had content for themselves, whether it be solo content in the forms of questing and rep grinds, 5man dungeons, and now 3 different levels of raiding. Everyone has content.

What you're trying to do is dumb it down to the skill level of the worst players. You already did this to leveling and 5mans, thus removing interesting content from a large number of players. Now you're doing the same to raids. It's not actually allowing more people to see the content, everyone who is interested in raiding, can already see it either through LFR or normal modes, depending on their skill level and schedule. What you're doing is removing the meaningful content from the rest of the people, who thought that the current level of difficulty was ok for. So while you might be giving more content for some, you're removing it, or making it boring for a large number of people as well.

There should a be a solution to give everyone meaningful content, by keeping content at difficult levels, and saying to people that "it's ok to stay at normal". Everyone doesn't need to progress through everything. Having 3 different progression paths, LFR, normal and HC, would allow a lot more people to have meaningful content for a longer period of time.

And if you're saying 10% guilds have killed Madness HC, do you really think that a lot larger number of players is actually interested in killing Madness HC? Most of them don't care, they've already done it on LFR and normal, which is enough for them. They're already bored with the instance, and don't want to struggle with yet another difficulty. Aiming for a lot higher number of completion is not going to happen, as there isn't as much people interested in HC raiding.

You should be happy that you have 10% clearing HC, 50% clearing Normal and 75% clearing LFR (made up numbers, but the point stands). People are happy with they're progression, and shouldn't be pushed to something they don't care about in the first place.

Instead you could pay attention to the lackluster leveling and 5man experiences, thus offering even more content to the large majority who isn't interested in raiding, but would rather play alone or in a small group of friends. Currently that kind of content does not exist.

Not at all, but if you want to argue something, there's got to be more flesh to it than "bring TBC back" or "because 1% of raiders seeing the last boss is good" or "because casual players don't deserve what we do".


Where exactly is the flesh to your argument? You just seem to disagree that hard pve content only doable by a small percentage, with corresponding rewards is a good thing. That's fine, but that's no more flesh than we're giving saying it is.

Here's some flesh; The underlying argument is about design philosophy. The various attitudes to which have been repeated over and over again so I won't bother typing them out (but one could). The simple fact is there is a player base that have picked up a certain attitude towards design philosophy which stems from, surprise surprise, the game itself (or how it used to be). That having to work towards something that is a fixed difficulty whilst you yourself get better (gear/skill/experience) is a good thing, regardless of whether you ever achieve it, and that those that do should be rewarded. This attitude was fed by Blizzard with things like titles being removed when trivialized (Hand of the Adal etc.) and mounts being removed/constrained (black proto drake/ glad mounts for best pvpers).

Now your just telling us that this attitude is wrong. Or, at the very least, this is no longer your attitude, and that people who still feel this way about the game, that this was a good design philosophy for the game, need to deal with it.

Ok, fine. Your game. But at least acknowledge that whilst the majority of the player base might be happy with this new design philosophy, there is a good portion that aren't, the vocal majority of people in this thread for starters. Don't reply to our posts and tell us we have no argument, or twist around what we're trying to say because a lot of us aren't the best at communicating. Be honest and tell it how it is. That you had a design philosophy previously that a lot of us embraced and loved and that now you don't want to continue with it for reasons we can all figure out. It's that that leaves these kind of players frustrated and alienated.
I would like to congratulate Blizzard for finally contributing to all threads on these forums, rather than concentratiing on the "fun" threads.

When I first started playing wow, many moons ago, I played as a mage. I found it both challenging and fun, I plodded through the first few levels learning what the character could do and what the game was about. Then I hit Loch Moden, it was awesome, the mobs on those islands needed sheeping (ask a new PvE player what that is) and frost novas. I would maybe take one of the mobs down and blink away to get out of combat, I leant this after a few deaths. Damn, it was brilliant, it maybe took a good hour to do one quest and instead of complaining how hard it was I embraced the challenge and was hooked. Further on in the quests lines of that zone we had to find groups and guilds for help and knowledge for the group quests to kill elites. this created a community of which there is scarcely any semblance of now. I am one one many of the early subscribers that are frustrated at the recent policy of "nerf" everything so every everyone can all content. Why haven't you rescaled lower level mobs in tune with the changes in characters abilities and stats? I'm not suprised new players are bored to tears with levelling and quit after a short time (show us some statistics of new account longevity), if you start a game on extremely easy mode you will get players complaining when the game becomes very hard, Blizzard created the current population that ask for nerfs.

I'm not the best player, far from it, but I know what I have to do and get one with it. Whether it's grinding for rep/mats/proffs or improving my gear and character knowledge. I have never killed the final boss of any expansion, even the ones that were nerfed, before the next expansion and yet I am still here. What this game is in desperate need of is challenging encounters at every level, I would regularily skip quests that I couldn't do and maybe pop back later when at a higher level or better geared, yet I still continued to play. If I don't finish in the top 10% of raiding guilds, so what?

What I'm trying to say is that I believe alot of your longer subscibers became long term customers, not by walking through content but through the challenge this game provided. Get back to the roots of World of Warcraft, it's not too late is it? I take time out to write this, full in the knowledge that my experience of the game may be read by a blizzard employee but ultimately disregarded as just one persons' ramblings, I am just one subscriber amongst your millions.
Why is it such a big deal that other players, in a much longer amount of time, can get what you're getting now?

Why those players that can't devote as much time, or don't have as much skill as you, should be excluded of experiencing content?

Because the progression is gone.

There is no reason for a new player to go to Tier 11 or Tier 12.
So basically, they aren't getting now what people got back then.
There is no progression besides the current raid. For many people, there is only one tier: Tier 13. The last of the Cataclysm raids.
It was like that in WLK, because TotC made Naxx and Ulduar unneeded.

They are excluded of experiencing the content because of how the game rewards people.*

*This is why I'm looking forward to LFR in the next expansion; people will be able to experience the content. I'm still not happy with the gear dropping, though.

Why those players that can't devote as much time, or don't have as much skill as you, should be excluded of experiencing content?


Why must players, who cannot or do not want to, invest as much time as we might, get excactly what we get, by removing it from us?

Seriously, I ask it again.
Why is the just one difficulty; "For casuals"
Why isn't there 3 instead?
LFR, which is good for now, easy enough.
Normal, which would offer a good challenge for those who want to raid.
Heroic, which would offer nearly impossible odds for those who wish to face them.

Why must all difficulties, be made towards people who cannot invest that much time?

LFR, easy and accessible to everyone. (What LFR DS is now)
Normal, challenging to normal raiders. (What Normal Ulduar was)
Heroic, really challenging mode, for those who wish to challenge themselves to the max. (What HC ICC and Ulduar were)

Why?


This.
We already have LFR for bads/people who just want to see the content, so why has normal mode become so easy (you can say whatever you want, but normal ds is EASY)? And why are hardmodes constantly nerfed?
Seriously, i don't get it.. It's ok to show all the content to everyone, but this has become to go too far.. and from what i've seen this will continue in pandaria, but at least we'll have those feats of strenght that are better than anything and a good step in the right direction.

(sorry if i'have done mistakes, english is not my language)

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