Feral Rotation Difficulties

Druid
14/11/2012 16:16Posted by Grendiser
2) Halve the damage and halve the energy cost per move.

No, I would personally hate that.
One of the differences between energy classes (rogues/druids) and other classes is that they have those pauses that you dislike so much.

Actually energy is not the only reason I pause. If I have 5 combo points, 4 seconds remaining on Rip, and I have enough energy for Shred, I would wait till Rip has less than 2 seconds then reapply rip. Of course I wouldn't wait if omen of clarity is up or I am at risk of reaching 100 energy.

This play style of Ferals. They are less spamming than other melee classes where you have a button to push on every GCD. I personally prefer that play style and I think it's a good thing that the game offers several different play styles. At least your druid feels different from other classes.


My problem with the pauses is it feels like I'm not doing the potential damage I'm supposed to be doing. Theory being if I could press something every global cooldown, I'd do more damage than what I can do now. The pauses is unsettling in that respect. It's seconds of "I'm losing dps Im losing dps!"
14/11/2012 16:27Posted by Nioniel
My problem with the pauses is it feels like I'm not doing the potential damage I'm supposed to be doing. Theory being if I could press something every global cooldown, I'd do more damage than what I can do now. The pauses is unsettling in that respect. It's seconds of "I'm losing dps Im losing dps!"

When you are not pressing buttons, your auto attacks should be hitting, and your bleeds should be ticking, and this is how the feral druid spec works. Energy is not and should not be infinite, otherwise there is no point of having it as a resource.

Just compare your damage with damage by other feral druids using same gear to know if you are achieving your potential.
I suppose I do ok damagewise. It's not great, but doesn't totally suck either. I gotta say though, it's good to know it's just how it is, and not me there's something wrong with. (with the waiting and all.)
14/11/2012 22:55Posted by Grendiser
When you are not pressing buttons, your auto attacks should be hitting, and your bleeds should be ticking, and this is how the feral druid spec works.


Perfect explanation. Just because you're not mashing buttons doesn't mean you aren't doing damage.
And that is what i think is so cool with kitty's - it's a bit "laidback" in a sense.
I like it 'cuz i'm not really good at melee-dps so i use the pauses to adjust my position

Anyways, many good tips here thankyouverymuch - i think i will become better from now :D
My problem with the pauses is it feels like I'm not doing the potential damage I'm supposed to be doing. Theory being if I could press something every global cooldown, I'd do more damage than what I can do now. The pauses is unsettling in that respect. It's seconds of "I'm losing dps Im losing dps!"


Ha yes how true!

Well it's been a while since I've been here and I just thought I'd let you know in a recent ToES LFR I was in the top 3 DPS / overall damage in the raid! Around the 70K mark if I recall.

Tips for anyone...

DoC although a little harder to weave into your rotation makes for a sizeable DPS boost and forces you to use a free HT after each finishing move. That's 50K odd healing for nothing.

Get an addon such as Droodfocus or WeakAuras to keep a close eye on combo points, procs, CDs and the like. In the midst of a battle with DBM shouting at you sometimes you get the "what was I doing?" brain freeze and a quick glance can make a big difference.

Check out Symbiosis...
http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=202586

Spirit Wolves from Shamans

Death Coil from DK

Fear Ward from SPriests (think Grand Empress fight) also the Priest receives Tranquility as you know a damn handy AOE heal.

Bone Shield from DKs for that extra damage reduction (we're a bit soft atmo - roll on 5.2!)

Thanks for everyones comments :)
My current rotation should be something like: SR (12 sec), FF, Rake, Mangle x4, SR (42 sec), Rake, Mangle x4, Rip [rince and repeat] using Bite <20% add HP.This would be in an ideal world if there wasn't such a thing an energy!My rotation is more like: SR (12 sec), FF, Rake, Mangle x2 -PAUSE- Mangle ... Tigers Fury!.. Mangle, SR (42 sec), Rake -PAUSE- Mangle -PAUSE- Mangle -PAUSE- Mangle -PAUSE-


here your problems ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS USE SHRED there are no boss in mop where i cant get behind the target and shread is a much larger dps increase. tiger fury on every cooldown on 4 CP, activite TF and refresh rake then rip are these scale with the damage buff from TF. if you Use DOC stack this with rake , and rip by taking the PS proc on about 2 second left. or if u dont need to worry about that if u wanta simple rotation use nature vigil marco with berserk to get some decent dps boost every 3 min. SR 100% uptime and rip its better to let rake fall off in high movement fights. and take SOF to solve any energy problems u will get. personally against most people opinion u should have about 8% haste as a gear lvl 90 feral

good luck
why would you ever mangel ?
And as feral (dont know if rogue have the same problem) you can't just smash rake>shred>rake>sherd>rake until you have 5cp or what ever , you need to leard how to use yours energy , for me i often end up not using eny combo building ablility if Rake ans rip are at full duration ist better to w8 a second or 2 to gain some energy before refreshing rip with shred or refreshing rake .
If you what to get better understanding of rotation just go to training dummy . Feral druid dps is almost like playing guitar hero and thats why ist cool
Hi guys - I thought I'd ressurect this thread a little. I'm so far 3/12 in ToT but I've had experience with Tortos and Magaera (depending on others lockouts!).

---
tl;dr I have crap DPS. Is it me or my gear? I'm close to QQ feral for maybe Blood/Frost DK combo and be awesome at both.
---

I will stress I am mainly tank these days but as you can see from my armoury I keep two totally separate sets of gear. The one I am wearing is feral.

I am seeing alot of "why mangle?!?" comments... an interesting discussion is to be had here.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1266986-Trying-to-work-on-kitty-dps-Is-this-expected
Strong points to note Shred only gives +20% bonus damage if rake DoT is active on the target and it's main damage is identical. Also, Shred costs 40 energy vs Mangle 35 energy.


Quick maths based on base damage of 20000
8 mangles (280 energy) vs 7 shreds (280 energy)
Rake active at all times and not counted.

8 mangles = 100000 * 8 = 800000 damage
7 shreds = 120000 * 7 = 840000 damage

840000 / 800000 = 1.05


So for an equivalent energy cost you are getting an extra 5% damage overall.

---
Anyway... onto ToT and my abysmal DPS in kitty. As previously mentioned I'm mainly tank so not really expected to DPS much. I try to keep my gear in good shape just in case.

Last night we expanded to 25 man Magaera so I went DPS... out of 16 DPS players I was lowest DPS and even sometimes lower than the tanks! With DKs and Mages topping 90-100K ... I was waaay down peaking at 74K :(

So... dismayed I departed the group with my tail between my legs.

I have since imported my character into SimCraft and ran various sims:

  • Patchwerk multi target was 102K dps
  • HelterSkelter TWO target boss was 79K dps
  • HelterSkelter SINGLE target boss was 68K dps


What the absolute HELL is going on? All I will say now is I'm glad I'm not feral druid for T15 and actually useful tanking this. Continuing on from the above "shred vs mangle" argument lets take a look a the ToT bosses shall we?

Jin'rokh... depends on how lucky you are with the tank! Do you Mangle in the water or Shred from behind?

Horridon... yeah baby! Keep Rip up on boss and Thrash swipe those mobs. I would expect to be top DPS on this encounter but not yet non-tanked it.

Council... not bad I guess. Keep Rake up on Mar'li and Thrash Frost/Sand dudes. Hardest one for us would be Blanka (sorry! I mean Kazra).

Tortos... ah s*** erm single target front only boss? Spinning turtles that knock you in the air when you get close to them? Wait a minute! Thrash those bats!

Magaera... as mentioned above single target but you can at least be behind them. High movement with Cinders, Ice or Acid Rain mechanics doesn't help matters.

---
I'm NOT the best player in the world but I would like to consider myself above average. My gear is NOT the best but well tuned. I was seriously expecting to be level pegging my peers with a not unreasonable 10K extra dps.
Just been checking out WorldOfLogs for ToT bosses.

The TOP feral dps (compared to all other classes) as follows:

Jin'rokh 120th
Horridon 478th
Council 1052th :(
Tortos 153rd
Magaera 137th

As for the later bosses it's difficult to gauge as there are much less samples available (less guilds and players). We did make it into the top 40 on Ji-Kun and Primordius!

Still a very disappointing result for us Druids! Maybe I should rereoll as Boomkin? ;)
I know dream of cenarius+ soul of the forest is suposed to be the best dps choice atm, but as most fights are not feral friendly (target swap and/or adds that burn fast) I'm using incarnation with natures vigil in pve and not only the dmg is fairly identical to when i had cenarius+ soul of the forest, I'm having a blast out of seeing the pretty burst. The only problem with it is that you got to choose wisely when to use your burst and use it as many times as possible. As for WorldOfLogs feral druids rarely have been on top of it just because is not a very much played class/spec combo and most guilds rather take moonkins that have the same utility and are ranged (wich makes them take less damage overal on most fights).
Bottom line, if you dont have fun playing feral you will probably get tired and disapoited at it since is not one of the easyer to play.

Ps: this is purely opinion based with some experience from normal and lfr, if you look closely I'm atm trying haste and didn't pve that much this expac.

have fun :)
Kirye:
I know dream of cenarius...[snip]


Upon my own reflection and re-reading my post it seems I was having a particularly bad day!

Whenever I'm not tanking I will almost definitely respec into feral for dailies, questing and everything else. It's a great class and I really do enjoy playing it - having rolled four Druids across realms! xD

I guess my disappointment comes when I'm happily mashing away and we wiped (yet again) on Magaera to find myself right at the bottom of the DPS meter (even lower than the tanks). I guess this is a really bad fight to reflect upon since it's strict single target with high movement. All classes seem to suffer with the team made up of 495+ not one member exceeded 100K dps.

I see that 'elite' players keep a stack of Tomes handy and respec depending on the particular fight. I have tried SoTF and Incarnation talents. In this thread I'd plumped for HoTW (for the +6% but never used its ability) and then changed over to DoC. One I've avoided is NV purely because I don't feel I'm much of a "burst" player.

Last night I took a 'night off' raiding and rerolled a DK }O.o{ and have gone Unholy/Blood. I think the constant ToT raiding is taking it's toll! Reset day today so back in from Boss #1. Let's hope I can get Tortos down this week :)
People saying you should NEVER use Mangle is a bit false to be honest, if you're starving on energy and need combo points asap to refresh your Rip you should use Mangle instead of Shred. Also remember to use your Clearcasting procs to refresh Trash for maximum damage output.

Ferals will rise A LOT in logs once we get Rune of Re-Origination and higher ilvl gear, the scaling with that trinket and gear is freaking insane.
Hello... again!

A guild change has prompted revisiting T14 content and we did three of the four bosses from Terrace. I am pleased to say my DPS wasn't exactly bottom but actually varied wildly depending on the boss in question. For those who may not have done it... Terrace is entirely single target with a fair bit of movement in parts. A feral favourite! ;)

Anyway... just been reading up FluidDruid
http://fluiddruid.net/feral-druid-5-2-throne-of-thunder-gear-list/

I guess it's all encounter dependant but I am finally going to drop DoC in favour of NV or HoTW. Hopefully I'll be able to macro it with TF.
I've also gemmed mastery but forged into crit as originally forged into mastery (and raid buffed) I was exceeding 75% mastery. At this gear level I don't think I'll have any issues with that!

A question for all you fellow ferals...

So take a hypothetical situation that you are glued to the Sha of Anger.
You pop TF+Zerk and go to town on his sorry behind...

5CP Savage Roar -DONE!
5CP Rip -DONE!
5CP...

At this point what is my best choice? I've still got 30+ sec on SR, Rip is ticking.
Do I ferocious bite?
Do I wait for my Rip to get to <2 sec and reapply?
Do I continue to Shred/Mangle/Rake and waste combo points?

It's a difficult choice because if I were to FB then the timeframe for getting another 5CP will probably mean that Rip will fall off.
Mangle becomes better than Shred with 2piece t15, you should only use shred when you have a lot of energy from berserk/general proqs

You really shouldn't get the 5CP SR first its a waste of Tigers Fury, using Rip for the 1st 5 CPs makes it do a lot more damage as you'll have your agility pot, Weapon enchant and Trinket proqs up.

If both SR and Rip are fresh then just FB. the only way you would re apply the Rip is if you have gained agility/mastery from trinkets that make it worth it to lose the energy on wasting half the dot.

I only ever pool energy for 10 stack Renektai or Tigers fury coming out in 3 seconds for Rip, never let yourself reach energy cap though always just throw out a mangle/thrash to stop this.
Thanks :)

03/04/2013 04:55Posted by Doggums
Mangle becomes better than Shred with 2piece t15, you should only use shred when you have a lot of energy from berserk/general proqs


Awesome! It's about time too!
Does the T15 additional combo point proc reduce crit requirement? Since you currently get a free combo point on each crit of an ability. I guess we'll stack mastery, then haste?

You really shouldn't get the 5CP SR first its a waste of Tigers Fury, using Rip for the 1st 5 CPs makes it do a lot more damage as you'll have your agility pot, Weapon enchant and Trinket proqs up.


Oops! yes sorry it was purely hypothetical and I've glyphed SR so I try to do an opener like...

Pull Timer 10 sec
Healing Touch (currently to proc DoC)
Cat Form
Savage Roar
Pull!
Faerie Fire
Wild Charge
TF+Zerk+Synapse (macro)
Rake/Shredx4
Rip

If both SR and Rip are fresh then just FB. the only way you would re apply the Rip is if you have gained agility/mastery from trinkets that make it worth it to lose the energy on wasting half the dot.

I only ever pool energy for 10 stack Renektai or Tigers fury coming out in 3 seconds for Rip, never let yourself reach energy cap though always just throw out a mangle/thrash to stop this.


I guess I'm just so used to trying to keep 100% uptime on Rip. Which, as we all know, is practically impossible! I guess it's better to let it fall off and lose a tick. Now with my gear level I'm noticing energy regen is alot more comfortable so I'm sat there with 5CP+Rip+SR not exactly sure what to do :)
Pull Timer 10 sec
Healing Touch (currently to proc DoC)
Cat Form
Savage Roar
Pull!
Faerie Fire
Wild Charge
TF+Zerk+Synapse (macro)
Rake/Shredx4
Rip


Before popping TF + Berserk you want to empty your energy bar and get combo points (so you can apply Rip with TF buff still up). You should also always apply Thrash when you have Berserk up.
Ok so I think we lost track of exactly what I was asking and does anyone have a geniune answer for what happens when you have nothing to do?

This is a training dummy example but I'm curious...

We have Savage Roar up
We have Rake on the target
We have Rip on the target
We've already used TF+Zerk both on CD
We have amassed 5 combo points on our current target

1) Would you FB?
2) Would you continue to mangle wasting combo points?
3) Would you simply do nothing (autoattack) and wait to rip again?
4) Something else...?
If you pve remove mangel from action bar . you should see increas in dps
If you pve remove mangel from action bar . you should see increas in dps


This is not true. Someone already stated in the thread that Mangle overtakes Shred at a certain point, which has been discussed extensively on other forums and confirmed with math and sims. Use Shred only when zerking in order not to energy cap.

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