Blue post about haste changes to protection paladin

Paladin
It's here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7593740975?page=45#884

And the relevant part is:

Paladin
- For Protection, we do have plans to try and lower the value of haste relative to dodge and parry. We don't want to make haste terrible for paladins, but we agree that it's odd for it to be better than more traditional tank stats. It might require a nerf to Shield of the Righteous to do this, but our goal is not to nerf survivability overall. We just wanted to provide you some context if you see odd changes to tanking abilities.


I'm very unconfortable with such a move in the middle of an expansion.

- First, Blizzard made a case for active mitigation in this expansion. Parry and Dodge don't fit in this scheme. Not only are they passive, they're random, thus leading to spiky damage you can't do anything about. What's important for a tank is not reducing total damage taken over a 10-minute fight, but controlling the smoothness of damage taken each instant.

- Parry and Dodge may be the traditional tanking stats, but are they interesting? Are they fun? In Cataclysm, the spotlight shifted to Mastery, and I found it much more fun than before, even though taking less damage remained a mostly passive exercise. In MoP it became active work, and Haste is a valued companion for it, alongside Hit and Expertise (I hated missing 1 hit out of 4 in Cataclysm). At long last I feel that my techniques are really used to tank, and not to dps between defensive cooldowns.

- Making Haste an interesting stat has very nice and useful side effects. 1) It makes protection paladins able to benefit from Bloodlust, not only for burst dps, but also for burst mitigation. Some bosses have a very hectic last phase where this is feels welcome and appropriate. 2) I've always loved the protection palatank because it's a tank that "takes care of the raid", which many tools to heal others and mitigate damage taken by others. The combination Haste + Glyph of battle healer feels very, very good for this.

What would I suggest, if there's really a need to change something? Completely give up on Dodge and Parry, at least for protection paladins. The 5% from base Dodge, and Parry rating from Strength, are more than enough to slightly lower the global damage taken numbers, and they don't interfere too much with interesting gameplay. Let us stack on Haste and Mastery, since it gave us the best tanking gameplay (best as in fun) I've seen in this game, fluid and dynamic.

Tweak some numbers so that stacking Haste (and a bit of Mastery) while removing Dodge and Parry doesn't make us overpowered, but please leave Haste and Mastery as our first priority and avoidance as our last one. If you try to give some importance to avoidance, I think I'll simply go back to stacking Stamina, at least I'll have some measure of control over it.

Thanks for your attention. :)
Hello!

I saw that post earlier too, and I hope this won't happen. Especially since I don't think asking most of paladin tanks to change their gear so close to 5.2 is a good idea. (My current BiS items don't have any parry/dodge on them.... )

If they really want to make a change, then maybe buff mastery-builds a little bit, so it will be a alternative to a haste-build. Right now it is a no-brainer to chose haste over mastery, which could be changed. (Lowering base absorption of SotR, with higher increase/mastery? ) But enforcing parry/dodge right now is a really bad idea.
I just dont see them pulling this off without pissing off every proteciton paladin out there.

Our gearingis now extremely fun with a sense of progression. If we would not stack haste our rotation would be very boring and stale, extremely slow. Haste makes our class fun and enjoyable.

Also, no way they can enforce dodge and parry without changing how it works and I don't see that happening in mid expansion. It is either haste or mastery now. And I do not see how stacking mastery is any better than haste to be honest. We already did that for 1 expansion now and it was boring as !@#$.

Not to mention that if we were forced to mastery stack we would be less viable than the other tanks in raids.

Our dps is also very far behind the other tanks, we are barely on par WITH haste. If they made haste unattractive for us they would have to buff our damage output.
I don't see a easy way to change haste for prot pally's. But than i absolute my haste build

I can see that for some fights mastery would be beter haste.
Big melee hits but slow, than mastery would def win from haste.

If there would be more bosses like blade master, believe also sha(never done this on normal) and to a certain degree garalon.

But i don't know how this would effect on the others tanks
We are Paladins, what else are they going to do but nerf us non stop. Has not changed in 8yrs, why in Gods name would it change now?
Hey, leave us paladins alone!
I just dont see them pulling this off without pissing off every proteciton paladin out there.

Our gearingis now extremely fun with a sense of progression. If we would not stack haste our rotation would be very boring and stale, extremely slow. Haste makes our class fun and enjoyable.

Also, no way they can enforce dodge and parry without changing how it works and I don't see that happening in mid expansion. It is either haste or mastery now. And I do not see how stacking mastery is any better than haste to be honest. We already did that for 1 expansion now and it was boring as !@#$.

Not to mention that if we were forced to mastery stack we would be less viable than the other tanks in raids.

Our dps is also very far behind the other tanks, we are barely on par WITH haste. If they made haste unattractive for us they would have to buff our damage output.


My thoughts exactly. If you were to change the way haste works, making it a nerf to fun, I swear I will reroll.

Nobody chooses Prot Paladins in PVP anymore, and you are going to nerf the fun part of us? Over my dead body!
There's not much I can say that hasn't already been said. Haste gives you more control and allows the tank to time his ShotR perfectly to avoid all the spiky stuff (Sha of Fear's Thrash or Garalon's Swipe come to mind) instead of just relying on your dodge/parry/block and hoping they take the heat off you. This is not only more fun to play as it also makes for a far better experience for the healers. Just misfire a ShotR against Sha of Fear, lose half (or more) your HP in one hit and you'll know what I mean.

And if the issue is tanks taking over DPS gear: When did this become an issue? What about the agility tanks? And the hybrid caster DPS? In the rest of GC's post I didn't see him say they would nerf Spirit-Hit conversion for Shamans, Druids and Priests, nor would they try to nerf the value of Haste or Crit for Monk/Druid tanks. If it's not a problem for them, why is it for us?
Stacking Haste is the most awesome thing ever happened to Prot paladins.
Is just very fun to play a prot paladin with high haste, it gives a more unique style of tanking, and even if it may be a little odd, is very cool, and every prot paladin I know just love this.

And besides that, I've never heard anyone complaining about Prot being OP or anything, we still deal less damage then Blood DK, Warriors and even Monks, so why change a thing that everyone loves?
You'll not only make a lot of people angry because the class will be more boring, but also because many of us invested a lot in haste gear, we upgraded with valor our haste gear, we did LFR as Ret just to obtain this haste gear, many of us just don't have dodge/parry/mastery gear, you can't just nerf haste for Prot in the middle of the progression, we don't want to feel like we need to begin gearing again after months from MoP release.

We're perfectly fine, maybe the most balanced spec of the game, so don't ruin it and go focus on the other ones please.
Yes, really hope some blue can pass this over the class developers. Haste is the only thing that makes protection paladin enjoyable right now. Remove its value and we got nothing left.

Dodge and parry is not fun.
Mastery is not fun.
Haste is fun.

I would probably reroll if haste was made useless for us.

Paladin tanks are in an extremely good spot in terms of gameplay right now, why change that? Every paladin I have talked to so for on my realm agrees. ( Small sample size ofc though )

Just to also add:

As others have said, this is nothing about nerfing us or buffing us. I couldn't care less. However, haste directly effects our GAMEPLAY. How we play our character. I do not really give a damn about the rest. Haste makes our gameplay better. A change in this would just ruin everything that they have worked and achieved on with prot paladins in this expansion. I haven't enjoyed tanking this much since T11. And then it was the raid encounters that allured me, not the class. Now the class itself is insanely fun.

So no reason why you would completely rebalance a class ( Obviously we would need more damage on our spells and more survivability if haste was removed as a tanking stat ) for the sole purpose to ruin our gaming experience? That feels like a very bad way to use your resources.

One of the other points that has been made. When we get say mastery or parry. We don't really notice that dodge and block. I mean, sure we become tankier, but it is harder to actually notice a gear upgrade. You are not sitting "Hey, that new armor I got made me parry 0.22% more attacks this raid. Awesome"
With haste, you actually notice the changes "Hey, my GCD got lowered by 0.1s with all the changes I did with my gear!". You get a sense of progression that tanks never had before, other than maybe stacking stamina and seeing how much HP you can achieve, but that is not even remotely comparable.
From the US forums, GC's answer to this: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7593740975?page=48#949

Is there a reasoning behind this? It honestly feels like you're taking the opinions of a mysterious part of the playerbase (like the same portion who you quoted as "not liking DivPurP because it was too RNG") and changing the entire spec paradigm around it. Why push for MORE class homogenization when the game already has WAY too much?


The game just isn't currently designed to support it. It creates potential problems such as:

- A Prot paladin competing with a Frost DK or Ret paladin over gear, meaning there isn't enough DPS plate to go around.
- A Prot paladin considering a tier set with dodge and parry on it to be "garbage" because it doesn't stack all haste.
- A Prot paladin looking at a Ret 2pc set bonus that she normally wouldn't touch because now the stats aren't that bad either.

In a world where tanking plate didn't exist or every loot system used the personal LFR one or 100% efficient reforging then it might work.

We understand that having a lot of haste feels fun and visceral and is more dependable than dodge and parry. We'll try to come up with a solution that keeps that in mind.


I'm a bit disgusted. The system is fine, dynamic, well-suited to the needs of real tanking (smoothing damage, not reducing total damage taken) and not overpowered. And they want to force us to give some value to useless stats like dodge and parry... What does it take to explain why stats that passively create spiky damage profiles are not what we need?

Such a change in the middle of the expansion would be in bad taste to say the least.
Gear problem is really the last thing that bothers you Blizz...guardian druids are in the same position with rogues/ ferral cats and monks...so you will change how crit works for them too?
Why change something that is not broken?? Why cut the fun, most important thing in this game?
The solution is so simple:

Just replace dodge/parry on prot tier gears with HASTE... so u'll be sure a prot pala won't avoid those plate pieces with garbage stats (parry/dodge as already mentioned above).
It's so damned hard to find an easy piece of plate with just:
haste/exp,
haste/hit on it.

Reducing haste benefits:
less healin from battle healer glyph,
less divine protection used (assuming talent unbreakable spirit)
less dmg (really? less than this?)
more spiky dmg (and don't say mastery stacking provides a less spiky dmg cos it isn't... u'll only benefits fro an extra 7-9% passive block...)

If they want mastery to be a valuable stats it has to "cover for something" cos in its current state u'd better havin a 70% uptime of a 45-50% sotr rather than a 55% uptime of a 55-60% one.

The only thing they should be worried about is the healing from battle healer glyph which apparently isn't even considered.
Blizzard's reasoning for changing things this way was active mitigation, making tanking more dynamic. Stacking more haste and therefore increasing Holy Power generation is an incredibly dynamic way to look at the whole system.

In the way that we now need to cap hit and Expertise, haste is a "DPS" stat. I admit it took some getting used to, but I tried haste and mastery, and haste won out by a long way.

I totally agree with the suggestion that Parry/Dodge are redundant. Blizzard's logic was to give us more of a role in controlling our damage. Tanking is more fun now than I can remember it being for a long time. Don't take us back to the situation we had with CTC capping. All that happened was I got to the cap and then let my gear do the mitigation for me. Effective, yes. Fun, no.

If this does come in, it will need to be handled sensitively, or a whole raft of raid tanks will be in trouble. I for one have been actively avoiding Parry/dodge where possible. And one thing on the subject of the plate DPS gear-it's the same as the cloth competition with spirit=hit.

Please don't nerf my fun
24/01/2013 10:00Posted by Jadhzia
What would I suggest, if there's really a need to change something? Completely give up on Dodge and Parry, at least for protection paladins. The 5% from base Dodge, and Parry rating from Strength, are more than enough to slightly lower the global damage taken numbers, and they don't interfere too much with interesting gameplay. Let us stack on Haste and Mastery, since it gave us the best tanking gameplay (best as in fun) I've seen in this game, fluid and dynamic.


Yes there really is a need to change something. Plate dps loot is a high demand chapter. Dks, Ret Paladins, Dps Warriors are included here. Haste is the best secondary stat for both Rets and Dks. Just changing the Prot Tier to haste changes nothing.You still have items like cloak+bracers+belt+feet+the offpiece+ 2x rings+2x trinkets to be contested.

In the end Blizzard will hit haste hard. I imagine SoTR will be changed completely to be based exclusively on Dodge and Parry.Or maybe SOTR will get an enforced cooldown beyond the 3x Holy Power .Its the only way to make it work for what they want. This will nerf your "fun" but active mitigation is about using an ability at the proper time, not having it up as often as SOTR is up now.
Other classes want "fun" as well, 100% up-time on Shield Block, no cooldown on Death Strike & AMS...give give it is more fun.

..and you say it is not OP and a "normal" passive build is as more viable even?
Yet none of you is geared/reforged that way?

When the masses go for 1 option --> OP.
I think most people misunderstand the current change to Paladins.

The change to Grand Crusader means that Parry and Dodge have some synergy with Holy Power generation - which was the only way to make them appealing.

This change is a nerf to all Prot Paladins on single target tanking, but should work out as a nice buff to AoE tanking, because of the extra procs. I think the average number of mobs needed to provide more procs is 3, (that is based on 15% haste and 30% avoidance on gear, of course it changes with different proportions of stats on your gear). But this new system favours dodge and parry over haste.

However, that is the only change to Protection Paladins. Sanctity of Battle is as it was beforehand.

The main thing to take into consideration is:
Did anyone consider the Grand Crusader Procs as good for Holy Power generation as just reducing the Cooldown of Crusader Strike/Hammer of the Righteous and Judgement? I certainly didn't. Haste was good because without any procs, it reduced the ramp up time of Holy Power. Increasing your haste guaranteed you would gain more Holy Power. That hasn't changed in any way.

The only thing that this change does is make Dodge/Parry gear more attractive and more viable, so that a Paladin won't see that as useless to him.

But then again, if you never saw Parry and Dodge as good stats then there is something wrong. For pure damage reduction they are by far the best, so having some on your gear is never a bad thing. You just want enough haste to be able to control some of your damage mitigation.

However, Sha of Fear was mentioned above, and there is never any chance of you not having Holy Power for a Thrash unless you played your rotation wrong on that fight, irregardless of your haste. All encounters that require your active mitigation for a specific mechanic will have timers that can be managed by every class. That time is 9 seconds for every single tanking class. Paladins can reduce that time, but have no need to when mechanics won;t be designed to require less.

About gearing, if you consider the top spec for each of the 3 plate melee dps classes:
DK - Mastery prio (DW frost), Warrior - Crit prio (SMF) and Retri - Haste prio.
If there are sufficient options in the tier for gear, then Paladins are the only ones who will really want all haste gear that drops. So right now, gearing is not as bad as it seems, with a 13-boss tier there should be 1-2 items for each slot so hopefully things shouldn't be as bad as people fear.

To sum up, Haste is still the best stat in my opinion, I will continue to favour haste over other secondary stats, however Avoidance has never been really bad and has been made slightly better and gearing shouldn't be quite as bad as people fear with the buff to avoidance, traditional tanking plate should be better during progression, unless there is noone who will really benefit from the haste gear.
Regardless of the above nice analysis Astur, essentially they are nerfing the Protadin dps on either build. Now since even all that haste was never OP i find it very hard to find the logic behind it, but i can try:
1) Loot conflicit: Personally, when lei shen's final orders dropped my raid's fury war and Frost Dk where Heartstoning for the next raid while i was asking if anybody needed it. Pretty much the same ignorance happend for the HOF 1st Boss haste cape and ring on 2nd boss cause these classes dont need haste trinkets since they'd rather go for dual str trinks (its their best stat) and as far as other pieces are concerned they'd rather go for crit + haste stuff instead of haste hit too.Finally, taking into consideration how every proper raid i know of uses either 1 fury war or 1 DK dps, its hard to think how loot conflict was ever the issue.
2) OPness: Hardly an issue since i was so glad about the haste build on Teamspeak my raid wondered why. Apart from the dps increase (which still sucked compared to other tanks) and the smile on my face for finally being able to "actively mitigate" stuff.
3) Dodge+ parry geared undervalued: Isnt that the same for DK too? I bet all the DK's out there would give their dodge and parry to the Devil for half the mastery cause they can enchant 4% parry double all the parry with dancing rune weapon and DS the hell out of them to mitigate stuff. Oh, they can also laugh at breath mechanics with Anti-magic shield and all that while being the top tank dps.

So , just cause we were born with a shield we are doomed to go back to passive mitigation? GC procs from dodge parry doesnt make sense at all cause if u go avoidance build u sacrifice expertise and lets not mention how that hinders ur holy power generation, dps and you'll be casting SoTR once a minute or be forced to go holy power pooling. So the only ppl that could be happy out of this are RP'ers who can now pray to the light for a dodge or parry since they wont be mitigatin sht.

Haste build will no longer have that much dps either cause GC procs go to dodge parry, so stating all this is to show how:
- All Pala builds Dps just got nerfed, maybe not as hard, but we already did suck on this abit
- Either go back to passive mitigation and smoke while u tank or be double stressed and still suck at dps if u go haste
- Evening out all our stats since it looks like no matter what u prioritize anymore ur mitigation will probably be more or less the same and ur DPS will always suck.

So is this change to wipe the smile of our face? Encourage RP so we can pray to the Light for another change? Make us reroll? Balance the OPness that never was there to begin with? Resolve the loot conflict issue only raids with 2 tanks 2 fury wars 1 retri pala had?( I dont know anybody who raids in this setup....)

I really, really cant see the logic behind it. Oh and on top of it, its not available to test on PTR cause its a "secret". So we basically have to suffer an entire patch so you can get feedback? Really?
We have like +6 gearing strategies. All of them are viable--more or less. Even Control/Haste still works if you want to push it. Yeah, it is fun and some really good tanks can do wonders with it provided they actually watch SotR uptime and delay its application when needed. But in principle, from devs point of view, Haste tanking is a similar abomination as shockadins were back in time. I sort of understand Blizzard that they have stats boxed... Haste and Crit for damage dealers, Dodge and Parry for tanks and Mastery for all based on spec. If suddenly players go out of these design boxes, something is wrong and they have certainly more data to look into as we. As developers they had to act. Honestly, I expected much harder nerf to Haste tanking and possibly a bit more damage buff to Control/Mastery-Avoidance tanks. We can be happy they have been so soft to us on this matter.
i just want to add to all u guys out there giving controll mastery build a hard time do u actually reguraly check sacred duty or other theory crafting websites if u were up to date on this u would know that in 5.2 theck has proven that even though controll haste is slightly ahead controll mastery is pretty much on par and over longer fight durations is actually ahead on overall damage smoothing + in the current tier gearing up into 522 gear or higher u will have points when u have to take suboptimal pieces and your haste will take a battering from this so there for controll mastery is the way u want to go for gearing untill u can get hold of the viable peices for a haste set

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