Is WoW losing it's epicness?

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First off I don't really go on these forums alot, I just browse through mmo-champ for the blue responses. BUT it seems one topic is constantly being brought up, and that's how generic/dumbed-down WoW is getting with every ExPac and patch. This is usually countered by a blue saying something like "(Hardcore) raiders only amount to 10% of the community so it's not the highest priority".

While ofc Blizzard is a company serving it's shareholders who wants their profit margins, it's slowly losing their "prestigious players" to a more casual crowd.
With prestigious I mean the players that go all in and really gives their heart and soul to clear the most difficult encounters, setting a benchmark for the rest of us to strive for. While these players are a small % to the community as a whole, they are the forerunners and give others an incentive to push a little harder to get further. This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc.

Less prestige -> Less incentives -> Less "rolemodels" -> Less skills = Generic

If the game loses it's focus on skills and perseverance, we're only left with the social aspects and I don't really see why we just couldn't sit on FB and play farmville or some pokemon app there?

I could go on and on about this, because I really have enjoyed playing WoW all these years.
I have never been one of the elite players, but I've always had the hopes that "one day I will have that gear, after clearing those hard bosses"

Finally here's a quote from the US forums which I think concludes my thoughts, and leaves a couple of questions to be answered; Discuss! :)

They have not ruined it yet, but Wow is at the tipping point. They have made the game much easier in many ways. Everyone can complete raids (LFR), gold is a joke - anyone cam farm 2K an hour with minimal effort. Talents, downranking, buffs, raid composition have all been beaten to death or killed with the nerf bat.

Hardcore players are losing interest, and the game is being dominated by casuals, and the gimmie it now/its not fair crowd.

I'm starting to lose interest. Non LFR raiding is the only thing left with any challenge. Now compare MV with Karazhan. MV is pull trash, pull trash, kill boss, repeat five more times.
Activision is getting lazy. Look at Diablo 3, it is inferior to Diablo 2 in EVERY way except graphics.

What can we do? Post our disgruntlement and hope it gets better. For me, the removal of talents and the make every class have the same abilities/playstyle movement is ruining the game.

Before DKs actively mitigated, Pallys reactivly healed, Warriors blocked, Druids soaked damage. Now, all tanks are basically DKs :( What's the difference?

Before Priests shielded, Druids hotted, Shamans chain healed, Pallys Flashed. Now all healers can effectively flash, chain and hot :( What's the difference?


Edit: changed the title of the thread, as it attracted flaming comments, rather than constructive discussion :)

I would also like to add that I encourage people to read the WHOLE thread before commenting, as I have tried to rectify many of the wordings of my original post.
Thx
And this couldn't have been added to the thread about exactly the same thing a day or 2 ago because?

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6533613983
And this couldn't have been added to the thread about exactly the same thing a day or 2 ago because?


Because if you read my first sentence, I wouldn't have seen that thread...
But thx for link
And it doesn't really cover the same issues does it?

I talk about things like weapon skill, visiting class trainer, class quests, hunter that needs to learn how to get a pet, learn to use new weapons, find keys to things and so much more !

Now it's just feels like it's a 3D diablo dungoen farming game. Where did the MMORPG part go ?
And this couldn't have been added to the thread about exactly the same thing a day or 2 ago because?


Because if you read my first sentence, I wouldn't have seen that thread...
But thx for link

Ah apologies, well search is your friend for future reference.

No problem, it's probably good to keep all the feedback to a single thread makes it easier for Blizzard to collate and take it in.

If you have any suggestions for it though they can be submitted ingame with the red ?

And it doesn't really cover the same issues does it?

It deals with a perceived simplifying of the game so essentially it is the same thing you just pointed out different things that have been made simpler.
Well it was going this way from the beginning...

So you want to be as fast leveler? - here you go - herilooms.
So you want to be decked out in shiny purplezz? - here you go - badge gear.
So you want to get to instance easier? - here you go - LFD.
So you want to see end game? - here you go LFR.
So you want to be even faster leveler? - here you go - monk with exp buffs.
So you want to be a chef? - here you go - streamlined cooking.
So you want to be a blacksmith? - here you go - streamlined BS.

Comming next....

So you want to be a world first ?

No problem, it's probably good to keep all the feedback to a single thread makes it easier for Blizzard to collate and take it in.

It deals with a perceived simplifying of the game so essentially it is the same thing you just pointed out different things that have been made simpler.


I agree on keeping feedback on the same issues in the same thread, but other than the word "dumbed down" it's two different issues.

While the thread you linked to is about the perceived simplifications, the issues I'm talking about is not 'perceived'
I'm talking about the genericness of classes, instances and gear. See the difference?
run forest run !
Don't play it then??
It hasn't been dumbed down for the masses. It's been dumbed down for money, in the same way that the original design was ramped up for money.

Blizzard will go where there is profit, as with any business. In the past an addictive design that kept people playing all hours (in some extreme cases to the point they neglected children or real life) with a hardcore cult like fanbase was profitable.

Now, a structure which limits peoples progression with caps and encourages casual play is more profitable, while also being healthier and more responsible to the player. You want to complete your legendary quest? Buy gamer time for the entire expansion. It's not "wouldn't it be nice if everyone could get a legendary regardless of skill, lets be nice to those casuals", it's "open it up to the larger percentage of players to keep them paying and playing".

If it wasn't, it wouldn't have changed. To think any major game design issue is influenced by anything other than pure financial profit is a little naive. Even something like CRZ system is primarily done for financial gain. This is why a lot of the time players revolt against something but Blizzard steadfastly come out with "it's for the better of the game". It means it's better for their business.

Your original posts seems to suggest you believe that "prestigious" hardcore raiders are worth more than other players. Quite frankly, they are worth less. If Blizzard had to choose between losing all it's "prestigious" players tomorrow, or the rest of the playerbase, you'd be gone without a second thought. WoW is not a game, it is a business. All you see, the blue posts, the design changes, it's all engineered around taking money from your pocket. Player feedback may well have impact on small changes, but nothing that involves money.

Also I laugh at calling the casual playerbase the "gimme it now/its not fair" crowd. Almost all threads of that nature are coming from the "presitigous hardcore players". QQ I don't like LFR, QQ too easy, QQ i dont like dailies, QQ I wanna sit in stormwind, QQ not a special snowflake. Who's really the gimme it now crowd? I would say it's the "prestigious" players wanting to gain rep and currency purely from raiding and nothing else personally.
I mean the players that go all in and really gives their heart and soul to clear the most difficult encounters, setting a benchmark for the rest of us to strive for. While these players are a small % to the community as a whole, they are the forerunners and give others an incentive to push a little harder to get further. This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc. This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc.


This paragraph makes it sounds like the 'prestigious raiders' are climbing Everest to collect medical supplies or something. They are people spending a lot of time on a computer game, not war heroes. I for one do not aspire to be like them, I just want to enjoy playing Wow.

The fact is that they are a small minority. Focussing your efforts on the wishes of a small minority rather than the large majority is pure folly from any business point of view. Yes, Blizzard are a business, but many people don't seem to realise that wanting to make money and wanting to make a fun game are not mutually exclusive. More money = more resource to create more content for ALL levels of players.

Also. how exactly does adding these other things like LFR, 'Pokemons' and transmogrification detract in any way from the hardcore competitive raiders goals ? That's kind of like saying that putting a bouncy castle in the car park of a football stadium trivialises the football match.

It seems to me that like in most cases when these threads come up, it is mainly just the fact that the more elitist players with more time to spend cannot cope with the fact that they are no longer special snowflakes who can sit preening on Orgrimmar while 'scrubs' inspect their gear in awe. They don't like the fact that other people can have nice things in game when they feel they didn't put in enough 'work'.

The players who are actually competitive are still competing, the 'casuals' are still having fun playing, it's those inbetween that can't cope with the fact that they aren't special any more. Wow is a game. It is supposed to be fun, and it is fun. It is only the endgame that was ever considered hard, and those hardmodes are still there, and they are still hard. So perhaps if disgruntled people started worrying less about how other players choose to have fun then they might have more fun themselves and not have to make another thread like this.
I mean the players that go all in and really gives their heart and soul to clear the most difficult encounters, setting a benchmark for the rest of us to strive for. While these players are a small % to the community as a whole, they are the forerunners and give others an incentive to push a little harder to get further. This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc. This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc.



This paragraph makes it sounds like the 'prestigious raiders' are climbing Everest to collect medical supplies or something. They are people spending a lot of time on a computer game, not war heroes. I for one do not aspire to be like them, I just want to enjoy playing Wow.

Very true, It is nothing special to be good at a computer game I'm afraid to tell you.

WoW has something for everyone. Play the bits you like and enjoy, ignore the other bit's you don't like. If everyone did this then all would be happy.
Don't like the idea of heirlooms? Don't buy them.
Don't like LFD? Don't use it
Don't like LFR? Don't use it
Don't like........... Well you get the idea :-)
The funny thing is, for the masses, the game has never been about skill. It's been about exploration and socialising.

I don't understand how any of these changes affect the 'forerunners' you speak of. The most dedicated players are still playing a completely different game to everyone else. They're maintaining multiple different classes to top level raiding quality, all of them geared, ready to swap to alts to get that 1% better composition and beat the composition.

Blizzard has removed a lot of the clutter and tedium that got in the way. I don't know about you, but grinding motes at the elemental plateau didn't inspire me to be a better healer.

The post on the US forum is also very misguided. Most of the homogenisation he described is drastically exaggerated and misses the whole point of development. I have to wonder how much he's played half of those specs.

And Diablo 2 was a terrible game for anything but the lore and loot grinding.

I'm not without my grievances. Instances feel less and less like you're invading a real place. It's just corridor, room, corridor. PvP is settled in killing people in one stun and the dev team don't want to fix it mid-expansion.

For the most part, WoW is a much better game.
It has however, come at the cost of being a weaker world.

Your original posts seems to suggest you believe that "prestigious" hardcore raiders are worth more than other players.


Ehm? no?
I was talking about the dumbing-down of the game, and how it's slowly degenerating because the game is getting easier and easier to master. I was also trying to hint at some of the reasons behind this: Raid composition has no impact any longer, classes and specs are different only in appearance.
I also admitted that Blizz is for the bizz, but my argument was that when you lose the players wanting to master something hard, the next player doesn't want/need to work so hard and so on. It all ends up in a generic soup, with little to no purpose other than the social aspect.
And this in regard to raiding progression, encounter difficulty etcThat's how I feel about it atleast...

lol @ comments like seeing raiders as warheroes and that there's nothing special about being good in a video game. It's a matter of personal interests. Like soccer, painting, cooking or whatever you might be good at doing. If you play soccer you prolly look up to Messi, if you like cooking Jamie might do it for you etc.
I wrote "prestigious" to communicate that I do indeed understand there's very little prestige in being a wow player regardless of skill lvl, progression or what not.

05/02/2013 14:06Posted by Vickii
Also I laugh at calling the casual playerbase the "gimme it now/its not fair" crowd.
Again another dsicussion..
Please point out for me, where have I've been saying this?
05/02/2013 15:36Posted by Snoopworg
was talking about the dumbing-down of the game, and how it's slowly degenerating because the game is getting easier and easier to master. I was also trying to hint at some of the reasons behind this: Raid composition has no impact any longer, classes and specs are different only in appearance.


You seem to be mistaking logistical obstacles for difficulty.

Making a raid require 3 shamnas, 5 mages, 4 warlocks and 6 paladins to be doable does not make it harder, it just makes it less accesible.

The challenge in the new raids comes more from the requirement to co-ordinate and implement proper tactics, whereas a lot of the challenge in the old raids was having the right people turn up having spent enough hours farming the right resistance gear and potions. That's not difficulty, it's time spent.
You seem to be mistaking logistical obstacles for difficulty.

Making a raid require 3 shamnas, 5 mages, 4 warlocks and 6 paladins to be doable does not make it harder, it just makes it less accesible.

The challenge in the new raids comes more from the requirement to co-ordinate and implement proper tactics, whereas a lot of the challenge in the old raids was having the right people turn up having spent enough hours farming the right resistance gear and potions. That's not difficulty, it's time spent.


I can agree to a certain extent, regarding time spent on resistance gear etc and that bosses are more tuned towards coordination and tactics. To a certain extent, because it was never a definite setup back when class differentiation was more prominent. You had to tweak tactics around the comp of the grp. Remember horde and alli didn't share all classes back then, so there was already two different tacs just out of that.

But I guess my real gripe is the sense of not achieving anything anymore, nothing epic or special anyways.. Achievement here -achievement there, purples all over, spec differences are cosmetic at best, class differences aswell..

I like the competitiveness of games, not the fluffy puffy have a hug, everyone is the same crap sry. I can't think of a single game who's goal it is for everyone to end up as winners.
And in my mind there's only one winner atm and that's Blizzard on the way to the bank..
05/02/2013 12:25Posted by Snoopworg
With prestigious I mean the players that go all in and really gives their heart and soul to clear the most difficult encounters, setting a benchmark for the rest of us to strive for. While these players are a small % to the community as a whole, they are the forerunners and give others an incentive to push a little harder to get further. This is now slowly getting trivialized with pokemon, cute pandas, transmogs, LFR, daily rep gear better than raid gear etc etc.


This is where most arguments just lose it (for me, of course). You might, of course, strive to achieve what others have done, but projecting that same impression onto a majority doesn't really work. The fact is, most of the players probably can't even name the best raiding guild in the world, because they just don't care. So they might give an incentive to push to some folks, absolutely (those in the raiding competition, most likley).

Then you go on and proceed to argue that these other things that have nothing to do with bleeding edge progression raiding, for some reason, "dumb down" the game, when, in fact, it's just expanding the amount of choices you have at your disposal.

05/02/2013 12:25Posted by Snoopworg
If the game loses it's focus on skills and perseverance, we're only left with the social aspects and I don't really see why we just couldn't sit on FB and play farmville or some pokemon app there?

If that's what you feel WoW offers to you, then I'm afraid you are not really looking at what those activities actually have to offer to any player that wants to do something else than bleeding edge progression raiding.

05/02/2013 14:34Posted by Coriandra
This paragraph makes it sounds like the 'prestigious raiders' are climbing Everest to collect medical supplies or something. They are people spending a lot of time on a computer game, not war heroes. I for one do not aspire to be like them, I just want to enjoy playing Wow.

Coriandra sums pretty well how some players feel. While for some of you raiding is everything that exists in WoW, for others is high-end PVP, for others is doing 5-man with their friends, challenge modes, scenarios, pet batlles, heck, it might be just flying around Azeroth just because they can.

The thing is, in a game as massive as World of Warcraft you can make of it whatever you want to, and it can't be a bad answer. As long as you have fun, and feel like you're getting from the game something worth it, then there's no real harm if some people just want to PVP all day long, or if some players would rather see all raid content through Raid Finder without caring at all about world firsts.

Also, please realize that some of the casual players of today, will be the hardcore players of tomorrow; and some, if not all hardcores of today, will be the casuals of tomorrow. There's no benefit in acting like it's two separate ponds that aren't connected and pretending you will always be part of this one pond.
05/02/2013 16:23Posted by Snoopworg
But I guess my real gripe is the sense of not achieving anything anymore, nothing epic or special anyways.. Achievement here -achievement there, purples all over, spec differences are cosmetic at best, class differences aswell..


I'd argue that the sense of achievement comes from getting the kill rather than the loot that drops or the achievement you get. The loot is just a means to an end, and the achievements are just markers. Those things are still there though, for those that it matters to. The heroic epix are higher ilevel for those who care to inspect them.

Also I'd argue that the spec differences are misleading. While it may be true that there were more options in classic, most of them were simply number tweaks which have since been integrated into the baseline spec. There were perhaps more unusual builds possible, but in terms of raiding back then nobody would consider you as a good raider if you had anything other than the cookie cutter strongest build anyway, so it's a little bit academic.

05/02/2013 16:41Posted by Draztal
Also, please realize that some of the casual players of today, will be the hardcore players of tomorrow; and some, if not all hardcores of today, will be the casuals of tomorrow. There's no benefit in acting like it's two separate ponds that aren't connected and pretending you will always be part of this one pond.


Very true. I really think the key is just enjoying your own way of playing the game and not worrying about what different players have or haven't got. I raided regularly from TBC up until Mid Cataclysm and for a reasonable time was among the best geared of all the druids on my server, but it never bothered me that other more casual players could get nice gear from heroics, good for them. These days I don't raid anymore, I prefer to just play more casually, and it doesn't bother me in the least that I can't get access to top tier gear. I just want to enjoy playing my own way.

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