Epic isnt epic

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It's always been like this and always will be.


Well it shouldn't, that's the thing. In Vanilla even with content being released, geting epic items still felt epic. Seeing someone with full T3 was like watching a supersports car going on your street. Today that's not the way it goes and I just miss that. !@#$ me right?
ITT: too many SLSF
I don't really understand why the OP is complaining about it, it's not like something that's only just started happening.


Must no support changes. Must not fight inflation. Must not add fun. Complexity is bad
31/07/2013 10:51Posted by Lex
3) Why would you care what others have


Because this attitude is everywhere around, even in real life. God how hard is to understand that it's in human nature that they want to be better and above the others, they want to have something others don't.

It's perfectly normal that epic feels no longer epic, if everyone has access to something.. it loses it's value.

Following that statement we can clearly say that epics felt more epic before 4.3.


you would have to be a very sad person to need to feel superior to everyone else

be happy and be happy at other people who are happy :)
I am sick and tired of see'ing threads like this its beyond a joke now and no wonder the comunity is in such a bad joke .

Listen only time epic where epic was in Vanilla even then the only decent epics where Naxx and BWL everything else was fairly easy to get .

TBC when the first point system came in you could if you had time spam dungeons ,get crafted and do kara and be full epic in a day .

You have Item lvls just focus on that ,if you want to moan about something think at stuff irl and see the bad things going on there dont waste my and others time crying about pixels that CAN NOT help you be better irl.

Its a game enjoy it and if you dont like it leave but stop trying to drag others down with you .

Really makes me wanna scream atm its just qq and whine over everything get over it and deal with it ,i personally think this expansion alongside TBC are my fav and ive been playing since 2005 feb .
31/07/2013 13:13Posted by Natas
Must no support changes.


Why would I support a change that I don't care about.

Gear is gear, Seeing people in full T3 (vanilla) or equivalent T16 now a days doesn't mean anything due to trasmogrification.

Just because its purple doesn't mean I'm going to feel better about myself if more people running around next to me in Orgrimmar are in blues.

Now one thing I would support is a more advanced character creation tool that rivals something like... say for instance, APB.
Seeing someone with full T3 was like watching a supersports car going on your street. Today that's not the way it goes and I just miss that. !@#$ me right?


You must have been on a very well progressed server to see somebody in full t3 before TBC there was hardly any guild world wide that had cleared it .
Why should 25 be promoted? Because it's harder to get 25 people following a tatic than 10 people? Just make 10 mans harder, easy.


To run a 25 men guild or raid, is harder. It doesn't matter where the "hard" does come from, you can say its harder to manage 25, its harder to play with 25 or its harder to gear 25 - it doesn't matter.
But a 10 is easier in many ways and that's not about mechanics, but about the whole work behind it.

Just like LFR is the easiest, as you only hit a button.

And if you blame LFR players for their laziness, then you must do the same with every 10 men player that refused to raid in a 25 men group :)

But I assume, you do raid 10s? :D

Dunno why your obsession to note that 10's are inferior to 25's but anyway they still require more effort than LFR. Also with the suggestion above about attunment, which I think you skiped, it would be more challenging to get epics then.


They do require more, of course. But they are inferior to the effort of a 25. That's all what I am trying to bring across.

The attunement process could easily be done by proving grounds. Let players not be able to enter LFR unless they have gold. If the PTR difficulty stays, then this isn't total faceroll, but it could also be a long quest chain like at TBC.

I really don't care, but I don't like the general attitude that LFR is bad, but normal even though inferior to HC raiding, 10s inferior to 25´s should still be rewarded equally. :)
Sorry to burst your bubble. But epic stopped being epic in TBC.
you would have to be a very sad person to need to feel superior to everyone else


Let me clarify this line of thought for you.

If you look at darwins pyramid for example, the ultimate achievement of ones life is self realisation, which in other words means the feeling of being a sucessfull human, to be part of something. To give meaning to his life.

To give meaning to your life or to give your life purpose you need to feel that it matter, to know that you matter you have to be something, know something, do something that is unique, something that other's can't do, something that makes you the best avaliable choice, something that makes you the best.

So yes, we always strive to be the best at something in our lifes. This will mean, to be superior to other's in a particular aspect. Now you should feel happy because you're good, not because other's are bad.

That's the thing he meant when he said that you want to be superior I guess.

Really makes me wanna scream atm its just qq and whine over everything get over it and deal with it ,i personally think this expansion alongside TBC are my fav and ive been playing since 2005 feb .


Dude, chill we're just being nostalgic about something that's missing, not gonna QQ about it I've been here as long as you, I've acepted it. What's wrong with reviving those memories and debating how it could be re-implemented?

You must have been on a very well progressed server to see somebody in full t3 before TBC there was hardly any guild world wide that had cleared it .


Yes indeed I was, there was one guild that cleared it and two other that were close to it but then TBC came out.

I really don't care, but I don't like the general attitude that LFR is bad, but normal even though inferior to HC raiding, 10s inferior to 25´s should still be rewarded equally. :)


I guess we have diferent opinions then.

I did 25 man raids up until mop when I started doing 10's and honestly it just goes much more smothly because it's much easier to get a set of 10 reliable people than 25, nothing more nothing less. It doesn't take more effort, it's the same dificulty once you've got 25 reliable people. Dunno why you should be better rewarded for that alone. It should be more about effort to get into the raid and about the dificulty of the raid, not about it being 10 or 25.

And note that I'm not saying LFR is bad. The reward system of it is.
did you not read the updated PTR notes?

They are bringing out a new level of gear between epix and legendary

its a sparking white colour called Iaslsf

(I'm A Special Little Snow Flake)

1) Colour represents the power / strength of an item not its rarity

2) The days of wow being an elitist snowflake land excluding the vast majority are gone never to return, huzzah! There are still unique rewards for those of exceptional skill anyway.

3) Why would you care what others have


You are funny!

/sarcasm.

rewards for those of exceptional skill anyway.


yes, more "epics" of the same quality that everyone else has.
Personally i couldn't care less abut the color of the gear, it's the stats that matter to me. If they put in a vendor with green gear with better stats than my purples i would get that immediately.

I did have an idea a while back, now before posting it i would like to state i do not run normalheroi raids so would never get this.

grey: common items
green: uncommon (standard quest reward and dungeon trash)
blue: rare (Hc dungeon and major quest line completes)
Purple: lfr and Valor
Silver: normal raid
Gold: Heroic raid
Orange: Legendary quest line items

Now the stats wouldn't change, normal and hc raid gear would still be the same ilvl and quality it is, but by giving it a different color it would put an end to all the pointless complaining about it. Then all the special snowflakes could go around bragging they have silver and gold epics, and those of us that care more about stats than gear color wouldn't be affected at all.
These kind of threads seems to be going in a loop and goes and comes in cycles. It doesn't matter if they add 100 000 different style of armour types, people will always complain that it's "not epic any more".

Colour doesn't matter any more, it's the Ilevel that matters. The better gear is found in "harder" raids (in my opinions, the raids are too easy, not based on my accomplishments but the fact that raids are downed mere weeks after release).

The best would be that they removed colours in total and let people choose the gear from stats. Looks doesn't matter either any more, since you can transmog any look that you like to your gear.
Then all the special snowflakes could go around bragging they have silver and gold epics, and those of us that care more about stats than gear color wouldn't be affected at all.


Geez people are missing the point, it's not about the colour of the item. It's about the epic feeling of being able to get the item. Take out the colours. Do you feel epic about geting heroic ilvl items? Well I don't, the normal gear and Raid finder one looks exactly the same and the effort to get that doesn't compare to the one to get heroic one. Colours just make it easier to distinguish what is easy obtainable form what it isn't.

After a while when a new patch comes out you would look at that equipment with a proud feeling, now what's to be proud to have that gear if it is easly obtainable by everyone?

Colour doesn't matter any more, it's the Ilevel that matters. The better gear is found in "harder" raids (in my opinions, the raids are too easy, not based on my accomplishments but the fact that raids are downed mere weeks after release).


Well at least make the heroic gear have diferent looks?
If you look at darwins pyramid for example, the ultimate achievement of ones life is self realisation, which in other words means the feeling of being a sucessfull human, to be part of something. To give meaning to his life.


That's not Darwin's pyramid (whatever that is meant to be) that you're talking about, it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And the top of it is not self-realisation, it's self-actualisation, which is defined as realizing personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences.

To give meaning to your life or to give your life purpose you need to feel that it matter, to know that you matter you have to be something, know something, do something that is unique, something that other's can't do, something that makes you the best avaliable choice, something that makes you the best.


I hope you're not using Maslow to argue this, because that's just plain wrong. Maslow's self-actualisation doesn't revolve around doing something that is unique, it revolves around fulfilling your own goals and reaching your own potential. You don't have to do something completely unique in order to achieve this, you just have to reach your own, set goals. You don't have to beat other people, you don't have to better than anyone else, you just have to achieve what you want to achieve.

31/07/2013 14:43Posted by Thrashin
So yes, we always strive to be the best at something in our lifes. This will mean, to be superior to other's in a particular aspect. Now you should feel happy because you're good, not because other's are bad.


Or, you know, you could be happy because you are happy. You don't have to be superior to someone else to be happy.
I don’t think this will change any time soon but I must say that I sympathize with what you’re saying, This isn’t a “special snowflake syndrome”. Sure, there might be a little bit of that involved, but it’s mostly a matter of perception, and perception is a very important factor in driving motivation.
If a colour is associated with rarity, that colour becomes important by itself, and that’s something that only the most old school players probably understand, still feel, or miss.

What I’m saying is, there was a time when having 1 single purple item was something absolutely amazing, they were not only the very best items but they were also incredibly rare.
That rarity was a consequence of a combination of many things:
- Raids were hard to get into.
- Only a very small minority was actually able to raid.
- Players were much less skilled than they are nowadays, so killing raid bosses was done at a much slower pace. Content was also updated much less frequently.
- Apart from the very first 40man raids (Molten Core, Ony), the chance of getting any epic items at all was incredibly small (world drop BoEs)

So the colour purple meant two things, extreme power and rarity.
But the game soon evolved, more raids were introduced, and all these new items that came with it were epic.

Nowadays purple means power, rarity hmm… not so much, maybe at the very beginning of an expansion.
But you see, that’s exactly the same that happened in vanilla, the only difference was that raids were a lot less accessible and less diverse (so, less overall chance of getting raid drops), and the patch turnaround with new raid content was much slower, which means, less availability of epic items. There were also no catch up mechanics set in place, so players had to go through all the clearly defined gearing paths of green-blue-purple (quests, 5man, 10man, 40man), and also follow a progression path with raids ZG/MC, Ony, BwL, Naxx.

We don’t want to restrict raiding again to <1% of the player base, and that’s the only way to go back to purple being rare again. Reducing LFR gear to blue wouldn’t make a big difference, there’s plenty of other sources of high ilvl gear that would need to be changed to blue, and even if we did that and only normal + heroic would drop epics, we would never have the same level of rarity as in the old days, content is just so much more diverse, more regularly updated and players are way more skilled.
I don’t think this will change any time soon but I must say that I sympathize with what you’re saying, This isn’t a “special snowflake syndrome”. Sure, there might be a little bit of that involved, but it’s mostly a matter of perception, and perception is a very important factor in driving motivation.
If a colour is associated with rarity, that colour becomes important by itself, and that’s something that only the most old school players probably understand, still feel, or miss.

What I’m saying is, there was a time when having 1 single purple item was something absolutely amazing, they were not only the very best items but they were also incredibly rare.
That rarity was a consequence of a combination of many things:
- Raids were hard to get into.
- Only a very small minority was actually able to raid.
- Players were much less skilled than they are nowadays, so killing raid bosses was done at a much slower pace. Content was also updated much less frequently.
- Apart from the very first 40man raids (Molten Core, Ony), the chance of getting any epic items at all was incredibly small (world drop BoEs)

So the colour purple meant two things, extreme power and rarity.
But the game soon evolved, more raids were introduced, and all these new items that came with it were epic.

Nowadays purple means power, rarity hmm… not so much, maybe at the very beginning of an expansion.
But you see, that’s exactly the same that happened in vanilla, the only difference was that raids were a lot less accessible and less diverse (so, less overall chance of getting raid drops), and the patch turnaround with new raid content was much slower, which means, less availability of epic items. There were also no catch up mechanics set in place, so players had to go through all the clearly defined gearing paths of green-blue-purple (quests, 5man, 10man, 40man), and also follow a progression path with raids ZG/MC, Ony, BwL, Naxx.

We don’t want to restrict raiding again to <1% of the player base, and that’s the only way to go back to purple being rare again. Reducing LFR gear to blue wouldn’t make a big difference, there’s plenty of other sources of high ilvl gear that would need to be changed to blue, and even if we did that and only normal + heroic would drop epics, we would never have the same level of rarity as in the old days, content is just so much more diverse, more regularly updated and players are way more skilled.


*Throws a net over Taepsilum*

Now please stay here and answer this for me.

Just to make it clear, I have no problem with people having access to Epic quality gear. However, the means of acquiring them has gotten so silly that hardly any items still hold value.
Everything apart from Heroic raiding and high-rated PvP has become a joke. Like an absolute joke. Heroic Dungeons are faceroll, HC Scenarios are faceroll, beating an Elite is faceroll, pulling 20 adds in the Barrens (brand new content, mind you) without dying is faceroll.

There is absolutely no challenge below the two extremes I mentioned anymore. The game is doing nothing to teach the player. I find people at level 90 in decent gear pulling 20k DPS.
It just waters everything down so everyone can experience it.
Now I wasn't around for this but I have heard many stories of Sunwell and BT where only a fraction of players got to see, let alone clear them. Whereas the opinions on this matter are controversial I think this is great game design. It gives you something to works towards. Something to aim for. Not mindlessly grind the game from top to bottom.

I remember in Cataclysm at the start of a HC Dungeon some people would link their Mumble to make the Dungeons easier. Because they were quite HARD. It brought communication as well as community back.

Now we're back to one or two people saying "hey" at the start of the dungeon if at all to "thx for grp" if at all when done.

We have tons of people at max level not knowing how to play their class because they are never required to learn to play it properly because everything is easy enough to get away with the bare minimum.

I will stop here because it is quite a bit to think about and comment on. What is your opinion on this?
I think a big part of the problem is that you (Blizzrd) have fixated yourself on the idea that color = power, when in fact power is represented by item level.

I think you need to untangle item level and rarity and say like... Well there can be LFR blues of item level 503 or whatever, but there can also be normal mode epics of item level 483 in the very same expansion.

I definitely think LFR needs to give blues. I also think it should give worse gear every single patch than the normal mode gear of the last patch - because normal mode and heroic raiders don't want to run it and the LFR players frankly don't deserve good gear for their meager efforts anyway. And of course at the very same time heroic scenarios would also give blues even though their item level is 496 (just making numbers up)

When a new season arrives, the old PvP gear you already bought remains purple, but if you buy the same pieces for honor then they are blue.

Am I making sense?
I agree. I wouldn't mind if even everything below heroic (raids) or some "special" items (like some weapons) are rare only. and downscaled if the content is not relevant anymore. Wouldn't be a problem and! having one or two epics would be that more awesome.
That's not Darwin's pyramid (whatever that is meant to be) that you're talking about, it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And the top of it is not self-realisation, it's self-actualisation, which is defined as realizing personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences.


You're right. Sorry about that, I got a litle confused at the names. My bad.

I hope you're not using Maslow to argue this, because that's just plain wrong. Maslow's self-actualisation doesn't revolve around doing something that is unique, it revolves around fulfilling your own goals and reaching your own potential. You don't have to do something completely unique in order to achieve this, you just have to reach your own, set goals. You don't have to beat other people, you don't have to better than anyone else, you just have to achieve what you want to achieve.


Alright and tell me how fulfilling it is to reach goals that are achieveable by everyone else? Indeed you just have to achieve what you want to achieve, but that's usualy something you do that you do good, that you feel proud of doing. Isn't that unique? How can you feel you reach your own potential in doing something that is done by everyone else? People will always want more and once they achieve something trivial that they say "Oh I'm good with just a big and healthy family", after they achieve that they will want more and more until at the end, you will want to know your life meant something, and how can one do that without feeling unique?

Or, you know, you could be happy because you are happy. You don't have to be superior to someone else to be happy.


No one is happy. Hapiness is a thing that comes and goes, there are moments of hapiness and moments of sadness. I just stated a moment of hapiness, you're never happy because you're happy, something made you happy, not knowing why you're happy is a diferent story.

That's the thing about conciousness and self awareness. True hapiness the one you're talking about, dies after you stop being an innocent child. How can you be happy because you're happy, if you know why you're happy.

Being superior to someone else isn't the point here, by being sucessfull at something consequently you'll be superior to someone else it's not the reason you're happy, it's a consequence of your hapiness.

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