Theramore was Justified.

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Sorry for derailing the thread further, but I know. And I don't like it either.
But at least arresting entire political parties or population groups based on their ethnic background on a suspicion that one of them might be the guy they are looking for isn't one of them, unless further investigation has shown that they for a fact all were involved.


So your argument that "It doesn't happen in the West" is utterly false.

And the Sunreavers are not an ethnic group, and yes, the West damn well WILL incarcerate a political, paramilitary movement if it feels it needs to.

For example, look at the esculating responses to the May Day riots - primarily , a bunch of pacifistic students out to try and push a socialist agenda (and have a fun day being defiant at the man)...with a few who will be more violent.

The respond of the Police even pre 9/11 was to incarcerate them (that's what bottling does) in surrounded groups.

And you know what? Immoral as all of that may be, unlikable as all of that may be?

The bottling DOES prevent the violent few from acting out. It DOES keep the majority safe. And the innocent are slowly allowed out as the police can be sure that they are NOT violent.

Yes, the rights of the innocent are trampled on. But safety is preserved.

The question then becomes - which is more important? Some Shop windows being smashed, or the fights of thousands of students?

Now, sure, in that case...the rights should be.

But that's not the case here. The case here is "A student in London has a nuclear device. If they leave, then everyone in the city dies".

You can be damn sure that the western authorites WILL lock down the city, WILL take eveyr student into custody, WILL NOT wait to explain, and they would be correct to do so because if they do not they are failing to act in accordance with their duty of care to preserve lives.


If there is no time to conduct "Further investigation" :- And everyone who thinks there always will be is living in a dream world - then honestly, which would you prefer?

That you were locked up for 24 hours....or that because you were not imprisoned, millions of people died? (Or, even, "You and everyone in the city you are in dies").

Jaina had no time for 'further investigations'. Investigations had already been done by Aethas which means EITHER he is in on it to some level, or that the traitors are VERY hard to find (because frankly, Aethas cannot be an archmage and a member of the council of six if he's an idiot).

There's no time to try and find them without trampling on the - non-canonical, since Dalaran isn't a Western City - rights of the Sunreavers. For all we know, part of the agreement signed by Aethas when he returned to the city was "If you feel we are a threat, you can lock us all up". Sure, it's unlikely, but we don't know the city's legal code, so arguing about the 'rights' of the Sunreavers is meaningless.

Medieval kingdoms? If a lord suspected that his peasantry harboured someone he wanted? Yes, he damn well would lock them all away. Or just kill them all. Even burghers, in cities, could expect the same treatment.

People try to analyse Dalaran from the perspective of a modern, democratic, perfect-rights state, and only examining the case from the side of the Blood Elves, as if the Sunreavers were not a paramilitary organisation with civiilan support.

You cannot do that. YOu have to analyse it as what it is - a state whose legal codee we do not know, and examine it BOTH from the potential for harm to the paramilitary Sunreavers and their civilian support AND from the potential for harm to every Alliance city on the Map and Dalaran.

Oh, and possibly Silvermoon city as well. It's hardly past Garrosh to decide to obliterate Silvermoon city.

So.

On the one side, we have potential harm and death to several hundred Sunreavers.

On the other, we have potential death to every single one of the following:-
1:- Every Man, Woman, and Child in Stormwind.
2:- Every Man, Woman, and Child in Ironforge.
3:- The essential extinction of the gnomes.
4:- The essential extinction of the Draenei on Azeroth.
5:- Every Night Elf in Darnasssus.
6:- Every Blood Elf in Silvermoon City (and therefore, the essential extinction of the Blood Elven race). Note that Jaina cannot know about the threat here, however.

And people seriously think "Save the Sunreavers" or even "Delay for the sake of the Sunreaver's rights" is the correct choice there?

If Jaina delays, she risks the obliteration of SIX CITIES and the extinction of THREE SPECIES (although admitedly, she only knows about two of them, since she doesn't know that Garrosh wants to stop Lor'themar joining Varian).


A few hundred sunreavers versus three species being essentially wiped out in a flash and the obliteration of the majority of the humans, dwarves, and Night Elves.


Which, incidentally, dooms the remainder to lose the battle against Garrosh, who by this point ,everyone knows is genocidal.


I agree to everything you have said Korae basically. The problem is however when people claim the sunreavers guilty, or deserving to be beaten or killed since they tried to resist the local police force.

The problem is...the silver covenant have never been the local police force, at MOST their group at the same influence and Power as the sunreavers (Sunreavers have been more political powerful as well considering that their leader was part of the ruling council which the Silver Covenant leader was not).

Suddenly these Silver Covenant Soldiers show up, treat the sunreavers like they have no rights and round them up, demanding that the Sunreacers obey. Everything without a word from the actual ruling council that the Silver Covenant have been instantly promoted to the security force they suddenly appear to be.

I for one do not blame Jaina for her actions, I blame varessa for not keeping her people professional. And I do not blame the sunreavers for not instantly accept that Dalaran have become a dictatorship and that the silver covenant have the authority they claim to suddenly have.
I for one do not blame Jaina for her actions, I blame varessa for not keeping her people professional. And I do not blame the sunreavers for not instantly accept that Dalaran have become a dictatorship and that the silver covenant have the authority they claim to suddenly have.


Varessa is certainly a VERY different question to Jaina.

On "Police": - The biggest I have is that...what DOES Dalaran have for a police force? It must have one, even if it's the civil militia, because it's a city. It needs one.

It should be noted however that going to the Council of Six is essentially going to create the same problem as any other delay - Aethas is one of the members, and Aethas has to be considered a potential threat to the safety of six species.

I agree that it makes sense for some of hte Sunreavers to fight back. It really does. But it's not correct to then go "oh, well, they were killed when the fought back, that's wrong because they have reason to not want to be imprisioned!".

That argument is saying "The person who was sent to arrest them should just allow themselves to be killed". It's actually very dangerous to try and stop something who is trying to kill you without being willing to use immidiate, lethal force, yourself.
Oh it's Dalaran again?

I really don't know why this debate is still ongoing...

Its like this:
Some people think Jainas actions were unacceptable.
Some people think Jainas actions were justified.

It highly depends on which side you are on... There is no "right" or "wrong". You have an opinion about this case and that opinion wont change, neither should it change.

I think Jainas actions were immoral but understandable. She didn't act that way because she is insane, or any crap like that, she acted like that because she was highly emotionally affected by previous events. Every character should have acted the same way, when not even worse... Everything else would be ridiculous and completely idiotic character development.

Srsly if you went trough everything Jaina had to endure and you’d still want to resolve this peacefully, there would be something wrong with your brain !
Jaina has some nerves… If I was her, I probably would have killed Thrall & Dragonboy and then have orgrimmar flooded… Then I would have returned to Dalaran to execute every single Sunreaver bare-handed…
Oh it's Dalaran again?

I really don't know why this debate is still ongoing...

Its like this:
Some people think Jainas actions were unacceptable.
Some people think Jainas actions were justified.

It highly depends on which side you are on... There is no "right" or "wrong". You have an opinion about this case and that opinion wont change, neither should it change.

I think Jainas actions were immoral but understandable. She didn't act that way because she is insane, or any crap like that, she acted like that because she was highly emotionally affected by previous events. Every character should have acted the same way, when not even worse... Everything else would be ridiculous and completely idiotic character development.

Srsly if you went trough everything Jaina had to endure and you’d still want to resolve this peacefully, there would be something wrong with your brain !
Jaina has some nerves… If I was her, I probably would have killed Thrall & Dragonboy and then have orgrimmar flooded… Then I would have returned to Dalaran to execute every single Sunreaver bare-handed…


Exactly. I'd want to kill Thrall too, leave Kalec and fly to Orgrimmar and bye bye Orcpit :P.
Dropping the mana bomb was not very honourable. Aside from that, i think everything went as it should and everyone did everything right.


And the blame for that is mainly on the Alliance players who attacked them.

...

Thanks. I will remember that.


No..it isn't. It's clear enough in the quests that the hostiles the Alliance players are sent against have ALREADY fought back. The Shopkeepers, for example - they are not eveyr shopkeeper, these are the ones that didn't go quietly. A minority.

I'll also add. As soon as you enter the vicinity the shopkeepers aggro and start to IMMEDIATELY attack you. They don't stand and wait for the player. They turn around and start fighting regardless of what the player does.

"Most shopkeepers in the Magus Commerce Exchange have sided with the Silver Covenant, but there remain a few holdouts that must be taken care of."
As soon as you enter the vicinity the shopkeepers aggro and start to IMMEDIATELY attack you. They don't stand and wait for the player. They turn around and start fighting regardless of what the player does.


That's just a gameplay mechanic.

Most shopkeepers in the Magus Commerce Exchange have sided with the Silver Covenant, but there remain a few holdouts that must be taken care of."


And the shopkeepers who chose to stay with the Sunreavers but weren't causing any trouble during the purge were automatically going to be eliminated by the Alliance players
in that quest then.
Indeed during that shopkeepers quest, not even Vereesa actually fully agreed with Jaina's order and method to dispose of them. She said it herself.

If even Vereesa didn't fully agree with that, it's quite telling.
That's just a gameplay mechanic.


You don't think that perhaps that same argument can be applied to all the kill quests? It is, after all, fundementally what the game is about.

If you are going to argue with "They aggro as a game mechanic", how can you answer "They get killed as a game mechanic" ? Both have alternate usages shown in game.

And the Shopkeepers couldn't be left where they were. They could have been the traitor. You assume that they won't cause trouble. You assume that they won't jump through a portal with a nuke the second there's an opportunity?

Why do you assume this?

And it's not like guards can be left around them, because at that point, you aren't containing anything at all.

The Shopkeepers HAD to be intered, just like everyone else. They refused. They may have had valid reason, they might not. But by refusing, it meant that they were a threat to those six other species.

One life does not outweight hundreds of thousands.
08/01/2014 18:25Posted by Elsya
As soon as you enter the vicinity the shopkeepers aggro and start to IMMEDIATELY attack you. They don't stand and wait for the player. They turn around and start fighting regardless of what the player does.


That's just a gameplay mechanic.

Then why do "Displaced Sunreaver"'s not attack the player?

That you're specifically sent after these three tells us they've successfully resisted before.

And the shopkeepers who chose to stay with the Sunreavers but weren't causing any trouble during the purge were automatically going to be eliminated by the Alliance players
in that quest then.

No, because we don't encounter any other shopkeepers who need to be eliminated. Just three.
The Silver Covenant fed a Blood Elf to a shark... I think we don't have to talk much about innocence of the Silver Covenant :D
They WANTED it. Really, this blood lust is horrible and terrifying.
Hmm... sounds a bit weird coming from a fanatic horde member and blood elf... but nevermind^^

Dropping the mana bomb was not very honourable. Aside from that, i think everything went as it should and everyone did everything right.

The mana bomb was never supposed to be honorable. Garrosh just wanted to eliminate a constant thread for the Horde on Kalimdor. Just look at Northwatch, this road through the barrens with its siege tanks and the humans in Durotar. They were literally at the Horde's front door.

But yes. Every action and decision done was ultimately a right one. Not morally right or "justified" but acceptable for a situation like this. Some actions were not very well thougt and especially Jaina and Vereesa seemed very hot headed, but they had their reasons. It's war, people die, others take revenge. Thats... some kind of ok.

And don't forget, Garrosh isn't the dumb fool most people want him to be, he's a very good tactician, smart and ruthless. Of course not the brightest guy on the planet and also a big hot-head, and also not the best strategist but in the end he fooled many into weakening each other so he could amass his armies.
The Silver Covenant fed a Blood Elf to a shark... I think we don't have to talk much about innocence of the Silver Covenant :D
They WANTED it. Really, this blood lust is horrible and terrifying.

I love how quickly people are to go "B-BUT DON'T BLAME THE WHOLE ORGANISATION FOR JUST A FEW SUNREAVERS!" but so often turn around and start going on about the Covvie feeding a Belf to a shark/other hostile covvies as being damning of the whole organisation.

I'm not saying you specifically do it, I can't remember if you have, but it is something I've noticed.
I love how quickly people are to go "B-BUT DON'T BLAME THE WHOLE ORGANISATION FOR JUST A FEW SUNREAVERS!" but so often turn around and start going on about the Covvie feeding a Belf to a shark as being damning of the whole organisation.

Haha yes thats right.
But we shouldn't start counting the times both sides do that, we wouldn't have finished this heroic task til next christmas :DDD
Also..if we are being techincal about it, the covenant did NOT feed a Sunreaver to a shark.

They held one ABOVE a shark, and only dropped him because the horde-player interrupted. That sounds bad, but it's a method that's been used before (For example, by a Wildhammer shaman, who is portrayed as Chaotic Good in doing so).
08/01/2014 18:49Posted by Varothen
I love how quickly people are to go "B-BUT DON'T BLAME THE WHOLE ORGANISATION FOR JUST A FEW SUNREAVERS!" but so often turn around and start going on about the Covvie feeding a Belf to a shark as being damning of the whole organisation.

Haha yes thats right.
But we shouldn't start counting the times both sides do that, we wouldn't have finished this heroic task til next christmas :DDD

True, but it's part of the typical attitude that Horde crimes are so often pinned on individuals (Putress, Sylvanas, Garrosh, Thalen), whilst if an Alliance individual commits a crime it's supposed to be damning of the whole organisation (Garithos, Daelin, Rogers, Vareesa, Shark-Covvie) and justifies their suffering.
08/01/2014 18:37Posted by Korae
The Shopkeepers HAD to be intered, just like everyone else. They refused.


That quest only says they refused to side with the Silver Covenant. It doesn't explicitly say they were causing trouble or that they resisted arrested at all.

And for not having sided with the Covenant they were executed.

However, i don't understand how Jaina trusted the other shopkeepers that sided with the covenant then. If the traitor was among them, and then he/she sided with the Covenant, then he/she was already automatically innocent for Jaina? That's really bad logic.
08/01/2014 18:49Posted by Varothen
"B-BUT DON'T BLAME THE WHOLE ORGANISATION FOR JUST A FEW SUNREAVERS!"


Few? You mean one. And he wasn't even a Sunreaver actually, but part of the Reliquary.
Also..if we are being techincal about it, the covenant did NOT feed a Sunreaver to a shark.


It's still torture.

Also, there is no evidence that he wouldn't have dropped the Sunreaver anyway even without the presence of the Horde player. It's possible he was going to do that anyway.
The Shopkeepers HAD to be intered, just like everyone else. They refused.


That quest only says they refused to side with the Silver Covenant. It doesn't explicitly say they were causing trouble or that they resisted arrested at all.

And for not having sided with the Covenant they were executed.

"Compliant Sunreavers will be sent to the Violet Hold. Defiant ones are put to the sword."
"Jaina will have sent the reasonable ones to the Violet Hold."

However, i don't understand how Jaina trusted the other shopkeepers that sided with the covenant then. If the traitor was among them, and then he/she sided with the Covenant, then he was already automatically innocent for Jaina? That's really bad logic.

She's obviously referring to them going willing. Not, you know, fighting and resisting arrest.

Few? You mean one. And he wasn't even a Sunreaver actually, but part of the Reliquary.

We don't know this yet. Even Blizzard haven't confirmed it.
08/01/2014 18:52Posted by Korae
They held one ABOVE a shark, and only dropped him because the horde-player interrupted.

That doesn't make it much better... its still a form of torture and the sunreaver is dead at the end.

True, but it's part of the typical attitude that Horde crimes are so often pinned on individuals (Putress, Sylvanas, Garrosh, Thalen), whilst if an Alliance individual commits a crime it's supposed to be damning of the whole organisation (Garithos, Daelin, Rogers, Vareesa, Shark-Covvie) and justifies their suffering.

Yeah, well one of the reasons for this is that the Horde or Horde traitors very often are the evil guys and the Horde has the task to kill them. They do it again and again and again, always fractioning itself, fighting agiainst itself. Look at Kael'thas, Putress, Garrosh, and all these guys. Its happening just too often.
While the alliance seems always to be united even if they aren't. It's this "Shiny-White-Knight"-thing that is mentioned very often. They just stop talking about Corruption and traitors like Benedictus, so they disappear and are just remembered as good guys. And the Alliance (seems) to search for excuses for people like Garithos, and just blame the nearest "evil" guy (in this case Sylvanas) to cloak their racism and hatred.

Just my way to look at it.

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