A conspiracy theory about Anduin.

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Horde and Alliance have been fighting ever since...classic? Atleast WotLK where they stabbed Alliance in the back.


im a little confused about this statement. when and how did the horde stab the alliance in the back during wotlk?

if we're talking about the wrathgate incident, then those forsaken were working for varimathras, who in return worked for the legion.

they were not aiding the horde in anyway considering both alliance and horde soldiers were killed. the alliance was not more hurt by this attack than the horde was.

there will always be war between the alliance and the horde with aggressors on both sides. but its not too wrong to say that the horde has played the role as aggressor more times than the alliance. ofc there are a number of reasons for this. (one of those reasons were, that the orcs played the role of the villain during WC1-2).
the orcs, being the core of the horde for a long time before WoW, came in to contact with the burning legion. the humans as far as i recall never had any connection with the burning legion. the legion corrupted the orcs and enslaved them, turning them in to killing machines.

orcs didnt turn green by drinking the blood of demons, they turned green by being exposed to fel energies (though drinking blood didnt exactly make them friendlier), so i think we can conclude that the orcs had become wild and aggressive even before drinking blood, like when they assaulted the draenei. this bloodlust began impacting the orcs everyday life and soon the orcish society was build around who could be the biggest meanest (and greenest) orc, which would carry on all the way to warcraft 3, where they were put in internment camps.

from there, the bloodlust and lethargy sort of ended at a point, thrall came, and he gave them a more peaceful purpose, and showed them they didnt have to be angry and mean all the time. then they aided the humans and the elves with defending hyjal and so on. WoW happened and then ofc all that happened in wow... happened. With garrosh, many orcs began to miss their glorious times of fighting because they had been raised with the influence of bloodlust and the legion. im not saying that they miss the legion, but if you've been raised as a killing machine, then its hard to adapt to a peaceful life. i think thats why so many orcs followed garrosh, since he was fighting with this ferocity that many orcs missed.

since WoW is build around war, its only fair to assume that the plot would work around the orcs often being the aggressor as they were in WC1 and 2. if the humans were to be the main aggressor all of a sudden, it would be too... i think too much to handle. like if men were to give birth to babies. it wouldnt make sense. aaaand ofc since WC3 the horde (kalimdor) has recruited factions like the forsaken that doesnt exactly want to live in peace either.

its not that i mind that the alliance could be the aggressor sometimes, but i just think when it comes to warcraft, it fits more if the horde plays the aggressor role.

anyway, yes both the alliance and the horde are vital for the challanges that lies ahead. do the factions know this? i cant say that they do. first of all, they dont even "know" whats out there waiting to happen. but im sure that the few who knows who sargeras is, would know that the horde or the alliance alone, probably cant deal with him. the horde and the alliance aided each other during TBC (to a degree) by holding the portal, i think both factions then have a sort of idea that both factions would need to work together, if sargeras were to launch a full on assault on azeroth.

does this stop us from killing one another? i highly doubt it. WoW lives off these uneasy peace treaties there are sometimes (with MoP, all out war). these uneasy alliances, where we aid each other against a common enemy (arthas, the burning legion), while still fighting each other here and there.
im a little confused about this statement. when and how did the horde stab the alliance in the back during wotlk?

if we're talking about the wrathgate incident, then those forsaken were working for varimathras, who in return worked for the legion.


Quests at the begining of Howling Fjord have the Hand of Vengeance Forsaken bombing an Alliance fleet for some reason, and then killing the survivors. (This is an intro quest...)

Broken Front is famous, and scapegoated as one of the Many "That one General"s. He was apparently disciplined by Garrosh for doing it...but Garrosh started the campaign with the viewpoint "If we need a port, we should destroy the Alliance port and take it over for ourselves".

Saurfang talks him out of that, and given no other orc at the fortification listens to him - and indeed, they trade an Alliance deserter back - Saurfang's seems to be the prevailing opinion there. But...Garrosh's viewpoint is very clear - he's just as happy, or happier, to kill Alliance than Scourge.

And both of these are in the starting quests to the Wrath Zones - so FAR before Wrathgate, and nothing to do with Putress.


anyway, yes both the alliance and the horde are vital for the challanges that lies ahead

What does the horde bring that makes them more important than all the death and damage they deal to the Alliance?

That's the biggest issue with the "Both Factions need each other!". It's very hard to see why the Alliance needs the Horde, given how much damage the horde does to it.
im a little confused about this statement. when and how did the horde stab the alliance in the back during wotlk?

if we're talking about the wrathgate incident, then those forsaken were working for varimathras, who in return worked for the legion.


Quests at the begining of Howling Fjord have the Hand of Vengeance Forsaken bombing an Alliance fleet for some reason, and then killing the survivors. (This is an intro quest...)

Broken Front is famous, and scapegoated as one of the Many "That one General"s. He was apparently disciplined by Garrosh for doing it...but Garrosh started the campaign with the viewpoint "If we need a port, we should destroy the Alliance port and take it over for ourselves".

Saurfang talks him out of that, and given no other orc at the fortification listens to him - and indeed, they trade an Alliance deserter back - Saurfang's seems to be the prevailing opinion there. But...Garrosh's viewpoint is very clear - he's just as happy, or happier, to kill Alliance than Scourge.

And both of these are in the starting quests to the Wrath Zones - so FAR before Wrathgate, and nothing to do with Putress.


ah thank you i forgot about this. i mainly started in borean tundra so i cant remember the quests of howling fjord very well.

What does the horde bring that makes them more important than all the death and damage they deal to the Alliance?

i didnt say they brought anything more important, but we as players, know that if sargeras attacks and the horde stands alone, then the horde dies. and the same thing goes for the alliance. i didnt say they horde was any more important, i merely said, that both factions are vital for some of the challanges that lies ahead.
if i was a human soldier of stormwind i would probably hate the horde. what the players knows, does the in game characters not know.

as a human soldier, how would i know that i had to use the horde for some of these challanges? i would probably believe that the alliance can do many things on its own, and as you say, considering the carnage and destruction the horde as already brought, its no wonder. the same thing goes for a grunt. there is no real reason why the alliance would not attack orcs on sight or vice versa.

there are really only a few citizens of azeroth that would know exactly what dangers that lies ahead. such as Velen, Thrall and Rhonin (who is now dead). they're not the only ones but just a small number out of some.

btw im so sorry for gigantic text wall. my post was not exactly directed against anyone just.. my two cents i guess.
08/01/2014 23:26Posted by Peonmaster
i didnt say they brought anything more important, but we as players, know that if sargeras attacks and the horde stands alone, then the horde dies. and the same thing goes for the alliance.


No....We actually don't know that. That's the point.

Wraithion has said that. Why, exactly, would he know?
One of the (old) implications of the Caverns of Time was that the Infinite Flight was trying to stop the Horde coming to Azeroth. Why?

The theory before was 'so the LEgion would win'. But...it's far from clear that they would. The invasion of the horde wrought immense damage on Azeroth.

And while it's all well and good saying "If you do not stand together, you will be defeated", the horde have to bring something that outweighs what they remove for that to matter.

Ultimately? It's blizzard being lazy. They want to have some deus ex machina statement that prevents one faction removing the other. But they cannot be bothered to make it actually make sense. That would totally take effort.

Blizzard declaring "Yup, the factions totally need each other" is lazy storytelling. The simple fact of the matter is that as it currently stands, no matter how powerful the horde is, it has done more damage to Azeroth than it can possibly bring to bear in its defence, and even that is assuming the Horde will stop killing the Alliance long enough to actually help (They've not been great at that before).

Blizzard want us to believe them when they say the factions need each other. But they don't want to be bothered telling the story. So they rely on people going "oh, ok then" and ignoring what actually happens.
One of the (old) implications of the Caverns of Time was that the Infinite Flight was trying to stop the Horde coming to Azeroth. Why?

The theory before was 'so the LEgion would win'. But...it's far from clear that they would. The invasion of the horde wrought immense damage on Azeroth.

And while it's all well and good saying "If you do not stand together, you will be defeated", the horde have to bring something that outweighs what they remove for that to matter.


IIRC, Blizzard implied (or actually outright stated, can't remember well) that if the Horde had never come to Azeroth, the Human Kingdoms would have fought against each other for supremacy, thus weakening themselves until the Legion would have safely invaded and destroyed the planet.

So they wanted to make it really clear that the Horde was essential for the survival of Azeroth, and not only when they first invaded, but also thanks to the precious contribute of Thrall at the Maelstrom during the Cataclysm crisis.
The theory before was 'so the LEgion would win'. But...it's far from clear that they would. The invasion of the horde wrought immense damage on Azeroth.


all the damage from the second and the first war has pretty much as this point been repaired. the soldiers that died have probably been increased to its old numbers again.

in terms of Cataclysm both alliance and horde towns lies in ruins (with the alliance having more ruined towns due to less unfortunate story writing). those towns destroyed by the horde during the cataclysm were hardly crucial in terms of defensive positions if the legion were to attack azeroth. towns such as the fisher town Southshore and the rest of the areas attacked by the forsaken. ofc many other towns got sacked, at the same time as horde towns got sacked. furthermore, many of the towns destroyed by the horde (or by the cataclysm it self) has been replaced by newer towns, some of these, even more fortified. im almost prone to say, that if the legion were to attack after the cataclysm, then the heroes of azeroth would stand a good chance against the legion, because so many bases had now been fortified. i dont play alliance, so i dont know much about your bases. but i know that the horde bases are now heavily fortified. does this make up for the number of dead alliance / horde soldiers? doubt it. many people died during the cataclysm. by that right, the soldier count probably fell, but there are more easily defended positions across azeroth now, ready to be used if the legion attacks.

if we talk about MoP then only theramore has been decimated. im not saying it isnt terrible, im just saying that Theramore was the only real alliance base to be decimated by the horde. do correct me if im wrong. again, i dont play alliance. i dont know if the horde sacked some sort of alliance town or settlement that isnt in any horde quest. ofc its important to say that the over all war on pandaria also cost soldiers lives. is the horde to blame for the war on pandaria? no. Garrosh was the most aggressive, but the war had already erupted from the cataclysm. the horde didnt start this one.
The theory before was 'so the LEgion would win'. But...it's far from clear that they would

i think its heavily implied that had the horde, had the humans and the night elves not fought together, then Archimonde would have been successful and that would most likely bring dire concequences.
IIRC, Blizzard implied (or actually outright stated, can't remember well) that if the Horde had never come to Azeroth, the Human Kingdoms would have fought against each other for supremacy, thus weakening themselves until the Legion would have safely invaded and destroyed the planet.


Fighting against each other for Supremacy. So..the Forsaken, the Warsong, Garrosh's war, aren't all doing that?

Blizzard's argument there relies on the humans kingdoms being mind numbingly stupid. In order to do more damage to themselves than the Orcish Horde did in the first and second war (and the economic collapse from the camps), they have to have fought themselves to extinction. And..that just doesn't make sense, given how interconnected the kingdoms all are, and were.

But even i the human kingdoms destroyed themselves? So what? The Legion needed Dalaran to enter, so getting Archimonde summoned would have been difficult if Dalaran didn't exist. And once he is summoned? His much smaller force (no Scourge, as no Ner'zhul) loses at Hyjal to the wisp bomb.

The Tauren die out, which is a shame. But the Night Elves, the Dwarves, and the (non-Darkspear) trolls are all in a much stronger position. The High Elves are vastly stronger (no Scourge, no massive population loss).

So? Really? Even IF the Human kingdoms had been so utterly, utterly stupid as to fight a war of exhaustion?

Azeroth's defenders wouldn't have been meaningfully weakened. Humanity just didn't do all that much to stop the Burning Legion. In fact, it helped it.

Precious contribution of Thrall? Yeah..Green Jesus, the WORLD SHAMAN of Azeroth. He's essentially what it actually comes down to. It's not that the Alliance need the Horde. It's that Metzen cannot concieve of a story in which Thrall isn't the necessary hero.
all the damage from the second and the first war has pretty much as this point been repaired. the soldiers that died have probably been increased to its old numbers again.


Deeply unlikely. It's been one generation for humanity. Worse, as soon as the new generation became young adults....they had to go and fight the Scourge (a threat created using an orc). Then 15 years later, Garrosh. There's a generational population cull, and each one has been caused by the Horde.

For the elves, it's worse than that.

You think fishing towns aren't critical? How well do your soldiers fight without food?

"replaced by newer towns" :- These do not occur overnight. Rebuilding infrastructure takes time - a lot of time. Even with whatever bizarre method Azeroth has that allows the horde to excrete fortresses all over the map, and the Alliance to build half finished ones in months, and statues of Varian's ego in days....building towns takes time. Building roads takes time. Finding harbours - and dredging destroyed ones - takes time.

It's not about 'defensive positions'. It's about supplies and logistics. (Defensive positions are pretty meaningless against Infernal Rain, anyway).

It's just not been long enough for the damage the Old Horde caused to have been recovered from, let alone the damage done by the Scourge and Garrosh.

Theremore :- At Theremore, Garrosh destroyed a primary Alliance city, a major trade and travel hub, and a massive amount of the Alliance forces.

And yet, somehow, the Horde is 'strengthening' Azeroth?

PAndaria: - Um. Garrosh actually did start the war on Pandaria. Even if you assume it is a seperate conflict, go and watch the intro movies again. The Alliance are on a rescue mission, and Garrosh wants to conquer it.


I agree, if the Horde was acting for the good of Azeroth, they would be a major strengthening factor.

But they haven't done so yet. Vol'jin may change this, but from what we have seen so far, the idea that Azeroth needs the horde is simply a lie.


The problem is likely not with the Horde. The problem is likely with the storytelling - it's SUPPOSED to be cycles of hatred, and democratic horde happy family Wolverine.It's supposed to be a horde strengthing Azeroth.

But for all Metzen SAYS that's what it is? If he cannot tell that story, cannot be assed fact checking and providing the information to make it viable? That story doesn't get told.

Just declaring it as a statement is not storytelling. And storytelling, ultimately, is his job.
So....it comes down, again, to the simple question :-

If the Horde is 'needed' for the survival of Azeroth :- Why?

What do they bring that outweighs what they took away, and what the other inhabitants of Azeroth have to lose every single time the Horde decide to try and take what isn't theirs?
Even with whatever bizarre method Azeroth has that allows the horde to excrete fortresses all over the map, and the Alliance to build half finished ones in months


LOL this never made any sense to me either. but i dont think blizzard cares about logistics and all that. and im not sure they want us to analyse the game in such manners anyway. wealth of a town or wether it supplies food, isnt really that important in WoW lore. at least thats what i understand by playing this game, and seeing as blizzard does not put a focus on it.

PAndaria: - Um. Garrosh actually did start the war on Pandaria. Even if you assume it is a seperate conflict, go and watch the intro movies again. The Alliance are on a rescue mission, and Garrosh wants to conquer it.

the intro for the horde is the horde flying in with their gunship, where alliance AND the horde starts to shoot at each other, at the same time. thus, the war continued.
the intro for the horde is the horde flying in with their gunship, where alliance AND the horde starts to shoot at each other, at the same time. thus, the war continued.


No, the FMV.

Horde starts at 1.07, but watch both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skcn0jF07W0

Varian is concerned about his son. Garrosh wants to conquer, and "redirects the invasion fleet" to "paint the new continent red".



LOL this never made any sense to me either. but i dont think blizzard cares about logistics and all that. and im not sure they want us to analyse the game in such manners anyway. wealth of a town or wether it supplies food, isnt really that important in WoW lore. at least thats what i understand by playing this game, and seeing as blizzard does not put a focus on it.

It is always important.

Blizzard doens't put a focus on it because it would require them to actually put some thought into it, and they don't want to.
IIRC, Blizzard implied (or actually outright stated, can't remember well) that if the Horde had never come to Azeroth, the Human Kingdoms would have fought against each other for supremacy, thus weakening themselves until the Legion would have safely invaded and destroyed the planet.

So they wanted to make it really clear that the Horde was essential for the survival of Azeroth, and not only when they first invaded, but also thanks to the precious contribute of Thrall at the Maelstrom during the Cataclysm crisis.

The problem is that the NECESSITIES of the MMO come first and then dictate how the story can evolve. They themselves SAID that if not for the MMO part of the game there would be no reason for the Alliance to leave the Horde be.

So their whole "Azeroth" needs the Horde steems from that. The whole thing is a horrible way to argument anyway. So Alterac/Gilneas/Arathi would've fought for supremacy with one eventually coming out ATOP and just THAT MUCH STRONGER.
That damage could've been repaired, it would've been a war of conquest aimed mostly at the enemy leadership and soldiers and not the infrastructure and people which THEY WANTED TO RULE.

Now after the Horde invasion these Kingdoms ARE GONE. They're DESTROYED with about EVERYONE DEAD. This is WORSE by FAR than one of these kingdoms uniting all the people under it's flag.

If they want to show that Azeroth needs us then they should show so INGAME. Because so far we've been doing nothing but wreck Azeroth and the Alliance while amassing power ourselves. We actively aided the Burning Legion and Old Gods by actually DIMINISHING the defenses of Azeroth to the point where when the Scourge struck Lordaeron was one it's own and fell easily.

The only human Kingdom left is Stormwind and possibly Kul Tiras. We destroyed every single last one of the others Gilneas just very recently and killed most of their population from highest King to lowest common peasent.
the alliance version isnt more lore right than the horde version. its just a reason to give us a motivation to get there.

the horde didnt start the war on pandaria more than the alliance. and regardless of reason to go there, it still doesnt change that i got my butt shot up by cannon balls when i got to pandaria.

and honestly ? the peace treaty was officially broken when varian attacked thrall and his forces after the battle for undercity. even thrall says so, that all they had worked for had been lost (the peace they had untill then, aiding each other against the scourge etc.

sure it was an uneasy alliance, but it was actually officially broken by varian him self, which led to cataclysm, and the forsaken and horde running wild under garrosh reign.

sure if he hadnt broken it maybe garrosh would have attacked never the less in cata after he became warchief. but even so, it was varian that OFFICIALLY broke the uneasy cease fire that they had.
I think it's more likely that some of the Alliance enthusiasts around these parts just wouldn't accept it no matter how the lore team sought to twist it. It's simple speculation that it was done for the sake of 'faction balance' - and yet all the evidence points at it being done to tell a specific story. Since it's...Blizzard's story and they'll tell it as they please.

It's not speculation that Azeroth needs both the Horde and Alliance to survive. The individual races within each faction bring much to the table that cannot be brought by their counterparts and the reverse is true as well.
the alliance version isnt more lore right than the horde version. its just a reason to give us a motivation to get there.

What?

They are both lore. It's showing the motivations. Varian wants his son, Garrosh wants to conquer.

FMVs are absolutely lore-canon.

Game events? Not so much. Yes, you got attacked by Alliance forces when you reach Pandaria. The Alliance get attacked by the horde as well. Quests are essentially mirrored, so you really can't read all that much into them. If we try and judge by the quests, then both factions arrived in Pandaria before the other one. The fortifications that you fight against aren't mentioned at any point in the lore of either opposite side, either - No matter which side you start as, you are all alone in Pandaria.

What matters is the purpose each faction had on Pandaria :- Garrosh wanted to conquer it, Varian wanted his son.

If you define Pandaria as a seperate war - and I don't, really, as it's very much part of Garrosh's war - then Garrosh wanting to conquer it is far more of a warlike act than "Rescue my son".


and honestly ? the peace treaty was officially broken when varian attacked thrall and his forces after the battle for undercity. even thrall says so, that all they had worked for had been lost (the peace they had untill then, aiding each other against the scourge etc.

Retconned away by "The Alliance wasn't ready for a war".


sure it was an uneasy alliance, but it was actually officially broken by varian him self, which led to cataclysm, and the forsaken and horde running wild under garrosh reign.


I think this was the original storyline, yes.

But because they failed so utterly at producing an Alliance storyline in Cataclysm, they gave us the excuse that the "Alliance was not ready for a war" and "would wake up after Theremore".

If Varian's actions in Undercity were still in lore, this is impossible. How could they not be expecting a war that they declared?

Even if they were? You've JUST been told about the Horde actions in Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord that were nothing to do with Putress. These are before the Battle for Undercity.
Even if they were? You've JUST been told about the Horde actions in Borean Tundra and Howling Fjord that were nothing to do with Putress. These are before the Battle for Undercity.


i know it happened before, but that didnt break the peace apparently since they still fought together at the wrathgates.

They are both lore. It's showing the motivations. Varian wants his son, Garrosh wants to conquer.

i know they're both lore i just said one isnt more right than the other. and ofc garrosh wants to conquer. he has basically been given greenlight to do so after varian broke the peace in Wotlk. thrall cant really tell garrosh not to. first of all, he's warchief, second of all, garrosh isnt exactly breaking any rules.

but what ever reason horde/alliance had to go to pandaria, i still dont think its fair to say that the horde started that war.
09/01/2014 00:32Posted by Korae
Game events? Not so much. Yes, you got attacked by Alliance forces when you reach Pandaria.

the exact same footage was shown for the alliance and the horde player during the fight for undercity. thrall asked his men to stand on guard in case shiit got real (which it did) where varian asked them to kill the orcs.

even if they had a terrible story in cataclysm, i still believe that this piece of in game footage, is considered lore. because cataclysm didnt give the alliance anything good at all, doesnt mean that varian all of a sudden hasnt started a war. i still think its very legit that varian started it even if blizzard screwed up story telling in cata.

anyway. i must sleep now.
and honestly ? the peace treaty was officially broken when varian attacked thrall and his forces after the battle for undercity. even thrall says so, that all they had worked for had been lost (the peace they had untill then, aiding each other against the scourge etc.

sure it was an uneasy alliance, but it was actually officially broken by varian him self, which led to cataclysm, and the forsaken and horde running wild under garrosh reign.

1. This was for the most part plot armor of the Horde at work. The Alliance ignoring losing entire fleets and armies due to treachery and attacks by the Horde backstabbing them. And the reason for the Alliance to finally "acknowledge" there is an war going on was that while storming under city they found them experimenting on and torturing human prisoners all over teh place.
Anyway, apparently ALL of thise didn't ammount to a war, neither dd all the Cataclysm conflicts but the war only really started in MoP when Garrosh attacked Theramore. Because before the "Alliance wasn't at war and not really invested" and thus "needed the destruction of Theramore to commit them to war". Don't blame me, that's Blizzards horrible excuses for you.

09/01/2014 00:51Posted by Peonmaster
i know it happened before, but that didnt break the peace apparently since they still fought together at the wrathgates.

Plot armor, also making no sense. #Blizzard
i know they're both lore i just said one isnt more right than the other. and ofc garrosh wants to conquer. he has basically been given greenlight to do so after varian broke the peace in Wotlk. thrall cant really tell garrosh not to. first of all, he's warchief, second of all, garrosh isnt exactly breaking any rules.

*Sigh* No. First of all the whole thing ended AFTER Wotlk with Jaina teleporting Varian out. According to Blizzard the conflict ended before it began. The next one started during Cataclysm with an all out attack of the Forsaken and Orcs, which apparently didn't strike the Alliance as a war going on untill Theramore when apparently the conflict started for real.

but what ever reason horde/alliance had to go to pandaria, i still dont think its fair to say that the horde started that war.

Yes, we did. We at several points of the events since Vanilla commited things that should've started this damn war far sooner. WHAT THE HELL IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?!

the exact same footage was shown for the alliance and the horde player during the fight for undercity. thrall asked his men to stand on guard in case shiit got real (which it did) where varian asked them to kill the orcs.

Okay, so we ignore the incursions into Ashenvale, Stone Talon Mountains, Hillsbrad Foothills and so on and on in classic. We ignore the Horde attacking two mayor Alliance forces and wiping one out and getting ourselves and the other destroyed alongside Garrosh planning an all out attack on the Alliance. Also we ignore the Forsaken experimenting and abusing humans of every kind ever since vanilla.

Why is it so bad if we ARE the more evil and more ruthless faction? Honestly I often feel like many of my fellow Horde want their bread buttered from both sides and then complain about getting some on their fingers. :|

even if they had a terrible story in cataclysm, i still believe that this piece of in game footage, is considered lore. because cataclysm didnt give the alliance anything good at all, doesnt mean that varian all of a sudden hasnt started a war. i still think its very legit that varian started it even if blizzard screwed up story telling in cata.

*Facepalm*
Plot armour? That's hardly limited to the Horde - long before the incident in the Undercity or the betrayal in WOTLK Alliance forces had infiltrated Quel'thalas. Typically that tends to qualify as an act of war - and this was after the Kirin Tor and remnants of Lordaeron betrayed the blood elves.

As for Cataclysm, considering how sub-par, clunky and awkward the Horde questing experience was up until the old world revamp it was sorely needed for the situation to change. Alas, a lot of people around these parts seem to want the Horde to be the underdogs at every turn which hardly makes for a compelling story. It's not enough that the Alliance won the recent war, is it?

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