A conspiracy theory about Anduin.

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Alliance forces had infiltrated Quel'thalas. Typically that tends to qualify as an act of war - and this was after the Kirin Tor and remnants of Lordaeron betrayed the blood elves.


Indeed that was an aggressive Alliance operation made in Thalassian sovereign lands to spy on the Blood Elves and surely the Alliance had no permission to move their forces into the Kingdom of Quel'thalas at that point, especially considering that the kingdom was neutral and already in the process of being reclaimed by the Sin'dorei anyway.

Or, they could have just sent REAL ambassadors to the Blood Elves instead of spying on them.

However, Quel'thalas had still not joined the Horde at that point, but i believe that, if Thrall really wanted to, and if we didn't go to Outland, that Alliance infiltration could have been used by the Horde to start building tensions - and possibly, an open war too- between the two factions already since TBC times.

But that wasn't the main aim of Thrall at that time, of course.

09/01/2014 02:02Posted by Solbranthius
As for Cataclysm, considering how sub-par, clunky and awkward the Horde questing experience was up until the old world revamp it was sorely needed for the situation to change.


Yes. And despite this, the Alliance still has more starting questing zones and territories than the Horde nowadays anyway.

It's not enough that the Alliance won the recent war, is it?


Not just that, but they also are a "unified juggernaught" of a faction and they will soon actively bring war to the Iron Horde on Draenor, while Vol'Jin's Horde, being still in a really precarious condition post-SoO, won't likely have the same spotlight the Alliance - and the Draenei, at last ! - will have lore-wise on Draenor. Indeed i believe the deep Draenei focus of WoD will greatly help the Alliance, as a whole, getting a big (and maybe even the bigger) impact on the story of the next expansion, something that was indeed needed because the Alliance (and Draenei) lore clearly lacked quite a bit in the past.

WoD will be a "Beyond the Dark Portal" period for the Alliance all over again, and im quite sure that period of time was actually glorious for the Alliance.
long before the incident in the Undercity or the betrayal in WOTLK Alliance forces had infiltrated Quel'thalas. Typically that tends to qualify as an act of war -


I think people are throwing around "act of war" here and there way too often. So many experts here.

Seems like the memory of some people is very limited. Anyone remember Snowden and the affairs of the US spying on their enemies? Not to mention their ALLIES? Yes, the US government was spying on the German chancellor HERSELF. I don't see Germany killing Americans for it.

Please, use "ACT OF WAR OMGFZSJFPS!!!1!!1!" sparingly.

Indeed that was an aggressive Alliance operation made in Thalassian sovereign lands to spy on the Blood Elves


Aggressive spying? That is something new ^^. He listened and collected information aggressively, growling whenever he found out something xD!
i know they're both lore i just said one isnt more right than the other. and ofc garrosh wants to conquer. he has basically been given greenlight to do so after varian broke the peace in Wotlk. thrall cant really tell garrosh not to. first of all, he's warchief, second of all, garrosh isnt exactly breaking any rules.


There's not "More right than the other".

They are both absolutely right. You seem to be thinking only one of them can be true. The two FMVs are BOTH true.

The game mechanic fortresses are not. They cannot be, as they require both factions to get to Pandaria in force first, and for both factions to get to Pandaria with only a few survivors second).

In fact, from the later actions, it is quite likely that NEITHER of the fortresses the Horde and the Alliance face are lore-correct, because no mention is made of either of them ever again by either faction.

This means we have to completely discard any actions that were taken by the Sha-Infested Alliance AND the Sha-Infested Horde.

You are arguing that Pandaria isn't a war started by the Horde. Well...if you view it as a seperate conflict, "Conquer" is a warlike action and "Rescue my son" is not.
It was an act of war. A very large portion of the population had been wiped out by the Scourge and the survivors were in a pretty dire situation. Instead of offering aid and embracing diplomacy, however, the Alliance sought to send armed combatants into Quel'thalas and a deceptive 'ambassador' who turned out to be a spy.

Oh, and it was a neutral nation at the time - it had pulled out of the Alliance and had not yet embraced the Horde. The deception itself was the the straw that broke the camel's back and pushed the blood elves into allying with the Horde rather than the Alliance - which turned out to be a pretty smart move as it ensured their survival and path to recovery.

You are arguing that Pandaria isn't a war started by the Horde. Well...if you view it as a seperate conflict, "Conquer" is a warlike action and "Rescue my son" is not.


The Alliance sought to 'conquer' Pandaria as well, actually. Given their imperialistic nature and their use of deception to indenture innocent pandaren (including women and children) to lure them into building an air base then it's clear both factions sought war and new territory.
Yes. And despite this, the Alliance still has more starting questing zones and territories than the Horde nowadays anyway.


This is always a flawed argument.

Which is better :- 200 zones and 8 quests, or 8 zones and 200 quests?

Also, zones that do not include quests for the other faction at all.

Alliance:-
Elywnn, Redridge, Duskwood, Wesftall :- Human. (Redridge and Westfall have far fewer quests, but fine, we'll count them)
Dun Morogh, Loch Modan, Wetlands :- Dwarf.
Teldrassil, Darkshore :- Night Elf.
Azuremyst, Blood myst:- Draenei.
Gnome: - None.
Worgen:- None. (Gilneas involves Forsaken quest lines).
Total :- 11

Horde:-
Durotar, North Barrens :- Orc
Mulgore :- Tauren.
Tirisfal, Silverpine, Hillsbrad (Hillsbrad includes the Violet Eye high level quest chain and the Zombie Plant reference, but it's not really a quest zone at all for the Alliance) :- Forsaken
Eversong, Ghostlands :- Blood Elf.
Kezan, Lost Isles, Azhara :- Goblin
Troll :- None.

Total :- 11.
It wasn't just the number of zones but the layout as well. It was rather efficient to turn Azshara into a Horde questing zone as it is literally right next to Orgrimmar in a manner similar to how Elwynn and Westfall are on Stormwind's doorstep.

I'm not particularly fond of what they chose to do with many of the in-game zones and iconic quest chains, though. Still, something definitely needed to be done to bring the Horde questing experience more in line with what Alliance players had available to them.
It was an act of war.


You are obviously oblivious. It's almost sad to see.
You are obviously oblivious. It's almost sad to see.


No, I'm not. You do realise that the blood elves are in the Horde as a direct result of how they were treated by the Alliance, right? This isn't speculation, it's fact - and it's been a plot point touched upon once again in the recent situation that played out in Dalaran.
You know where the split is coming from?

On one side, we have people that demand that the story we are collectively paying millions of dollars for make sense, and that if something isn't being told in the story, it doesn't actually matter what Blizzard says. In other words, we demand quality and sense in the storytelling.

On the other side, we have the people that say "If Blizzard says something, then that's true, even if it is not actually shown at all in the story". They don't actually care about the quality of the story, they want to bask in Blizzard's 'genius'.

But only if this benefits them. As soon as you declare "Dalaran was an atrocity", you lose all right to this argument, because Blizzard have declared that it was a fistpump moment, and atrocities are not fistpump moments.
Blizzard have stated officially that the situation in Dalaran was a pretty morally grey and questionable affair. Just as they did with the whole 'drowning orcs' thing back in the Jade Forest. - which is pretty fair given that one of the major themes explored over the years is that both factions have good and bad apples and that both factions are capable of morally grey/outright evil acts.

I'd say the biggest issue is that whenever innocent Alliance lives are lost it's generally considered to be a horrific act and whenever innocent Horde lives are lost the usual suspects burst out of the woodwork to debate endlessly as to how 'they had it coming' or that the 'Alliance did the right thing'.

No, I'm not.


Yes, you are. Extremely. You are completely unable to take reasonable arguments because your mind is blocked out by incredible bias. Alliance having a spy at a "neutral" faction being an "aggressive act of war" is ridiculous.


You do realise that the blood elves are in the Horde as a direct result of how they were treated by the Alliance, right?


Were the Blood Elves mistreated by certain Alliance members? Yes of course they were, I never doubted that. But you seem to be using every pathetic excuse to justify anything that blood elves do or do not do.

And do you blame the Alliance for acquiring information regarding a "netural" faction? After all your raced turned out to be a fel magic addicted crazy bunch. Didn't half of your remaining population turn crazy and ally with the Buring Legion, weren't blood elves fighting blood elves? Did your race not enslave a Naaru to suck its life out?

And you blatantly ignored my comparison of the US spying on their ally Germany. Do you see them considering that an act of war? Did they start killing Americans because of that? Be a man and don't ignore that question.

By the way an Alliance leader, namely Velen reignited the sunwell so yeah, an Alliance leader was your salvation, YOU'RE WELCOME ;).
09/01/2014 11:08Posted by Innara
Yes, you are. Extremely. You are completely unable to take reasonable arguments because your mind is blocked out by incredible bias. Alliance having a spy at a "neutral" faction being an "aggressive act of war" is ridiculous.


I'm not sure how working with canon lore facts is 'biased'. The blood elves were not part of the Alliance or the Horde at the time that the hostile acts occurred. It wasn't the first time that the Alliance had screwed them over, as you admitted yourself - so

I ignored the whole 'US' thing deliberately, largely because the real world follows a very different set of rules to Azeroth and feels very much like an attempt to clutch at straws.

No one is saying the blood elves are perfect. It's worth noting, however, that a very large portion defected from Kael'thas and sided with Azeroth rather than the Burning Legion. I don't see you blaming the entirety of the human race just because a portion of humans joined the Cult of the Damned and sought to destroy Azeroth.

As for Velen, it was an act of kindness and pushed the blood elves down a better path. The Sunwell wasn't destroyed or corrupted through any fault of their own, though - and it doesn't change the fact that the Kirin Tor and remnants of Lordaeron stabbed them in the back.

Everything the blood elves have done in recent years has been for the benefit of their people and homeland. They're effectively the dictionary definition of pragmatic. They embraced fel energy as a necessity and would not have been able to restore Silvermoon had they not had access to such power. With the Sunwell restored and their addiction to magic eased, however, they have largely cast aside fel energy (which is something used by the Alliance itself, let us not forget) and focused on safer and additional means to safeguard their people.

Regardless, my point stands: the Alliance was perfectly capable of offering aid to the blood elves and engaging in diplomatic talks with the inhabitants of Quel'thalas. They didn't resort to that and instead poured salt on sore wounds by effectively forcing them into the Horde.

Edit: It's worth noting that Tyrande herself fought alongside Kael'thas, so the act of spying upon the blood elves is quite strange in itself.
You know where the split is coming from?

On one side, we have people that demand that the story we are collectively paying millions of dollars for make sense, and that if something isn't being told in the story, it doesn't actually matter what Blizzard says. In other words, we demand quality and sense in the storytelling.

On the other side, we have the people that say "If Blizzard says something, then that's true, even if it is not actually shown at all in the story". They don't actually care about the quality of the story, they want to bask in Blizzard's 'genius'.

But only if this benefits them. As soon as you declare "Dalaran was an atrocity", you lose all right to this argument, because Blizzard have declared that it was a fistpump moment, and atrocities are not fistpump moments.


You can always argue "the death of the author" theory.
True it's mostly used on the literary medium but you can argue the same for video games storytelling. Hence the Marauder Shields/Indoctronation theory post Mass Effect III.
09/01/2014 11:08Posted by Innara
And do you blame the Alliance for acquiring information regarding a "netural" faction?


To be fair the situation in Eversong is confusing, and difficult, and requires people to understand that the world is not an ideal place. That's...not easy for a lot of people to do. It's completely contrary to everything we are supposed to learn in our beloved free Western Democracies.

Ambassadors frequently spy. It's part of their job. In fact, it's often a major part of their job.

But then they say "Oh, but the shrine!". So...in an area where almost every other shrine has broken, people become suprisied when the shrine breaks. Sure, you are then told that it was the fault of the dwarven ambassador, but that's hardly proof.

Who benefits from sabotaging that shrine? It's irrelevant to the Alliance. If the Blood Elves are enemies...it doesn't meaningfully alter their defensive capacity, and it does nothing but harm any attempt to recreate an alliance (and having sent an Ambassador all that way, it seems unlikely that they do wish this).

But who does benefit? We have two candiates :- Kael'thas's ruling body, and Sylvanas.

Both of these groups want the Blood Elves seperated from the Alliance. To do this, they have to turn the common elf against the Alliance - remember that the elves have been in alliance with the humans for a long time, habits are hard to break. Garithos will certainly have done a lot to break that connection, but if it's still there?

Both Kael'thas' regents AND Sylvanas need that to break.

And accusing the Alliance of breaking one of the things that's helping keep Eversong safe, for no percievable reason other than spite? That certainly works for that.

Go where the motive is. The Alliance has no motive to break the shrine. THe Blood Elven rulers and Sylvanas...do.
You can always argue "the death of the author" theory.
True it's mostly used on the literary medium but you can argue the same for video games storytelling. Hence the Marauder Shields/Indoctronation theory post Mass Effect III.


Well, sure, but I think that we have to take account of Blizzard's utter lack of knowledge regarding World Building, because if we completely seperate out their incompetance, Azeroth becomes literally impossible.

And if we did that, it would make all the "But Blizzard said! " arguments even less valid than they already are. :P
Instead of pinning the blame on Kael'thas or Sylvanas - both of which have absolutely zero canon lore indicating that they're to blame - we could instead go back to the issue of Alliance forces infiltrating Quel'thalas and focus on that instead.

I think there's been enough deflection at this point. Even if we consider the arcane sanctum issue to be no one's fault it doesn't change the fact that night elves were occupying territory that belonged to a foreign nation. At the time, the nation itself was bound by neutrality and was not part of the Alliance or the Horde.

We see in the Ghostlands that the night elves have access to at least one ship and have multiple camps full of elves, supplies and weapons. Which in turn means they were perfectly capable of sending supplies to Quel'thalas and could spare forces to offer actual aid to the blood elves.

In addition, Kael'thas had already informed Tyrande that Quel'thalas had fallen. She even fought alongside him for a time and he actively aided her - this, however, appears to be forgotten and implies that Tyrande either didn't know of the night elf invasion of Quel'thalas or that she too sought to stab the blood elves in the back.

As for the dwarf, it's likely he was working alongside the night elves. Even if he wasn't and acted on behalf of Ironforge then that's yet another nation that could have sent actual aid but didn't.
Let's see. The Nelfs/Dwarfs were SPYING on the Belfs because they were worried about their usage of fell energy and them possibly working with the Horde/Burning Legion which in hindsight showed itself to be true.

Also at the same time the Belfs were assault the Draenei on the Bloodmyst isle and not just spying but outright attacking and harassing them.

@Solbranthius, they weren't occupying anything they were SPYING. This is a far shot from an actual invasion, sure it would lead to some diplomatic problems but not a war. Otherwise the EU and large parts of the rest of the world would currently wage war on the USA.


I'm not sure how working with canon lore facts is 'biased'. The blood elves were not part of the Alliance or the Horde at the time that the hostile acts occurred. It wasn't the first time that the Alliance had screwed them over, as you admitted yourself - so


You are extremely biased in stating anything a different faction does to the blood elves (even such a casual thing ad spying) is an attrocious act of war. Yet blood elves using fel energies, capturing a Naaru and sucking it out is fine because well lol Blood Elves are cool and they can do it. How do you not drown in that biac I do not understand oh wait I do...as I said...oblivious.


I ignored the whole 'US' thing deliberately, largely because the real world follows a very different set of rules to Azeroth and feels very much like an attempt to clutch at straws.


Of course you ignored it because it shows how much hype anything that happens to your races and portray anything the blood elves do as trivial and fine.


No one is saying the blood elves are perfect. It's worth noting, however, that a very large portion defected from Kael'thas and sided with Azeroth rather than the Burning Legion. I don't see you blaming the entirety of the human race just because a portion of humans joined the Cult of the Damned and sought to destroy Azeroth.


I am not, but you are. I personally think that it is a shame how the Alliance treated the Blood Elves in WC3 TFT it was incredibly stupid and rather forced. But the actions of the Blood Elves themselves are not those of an innocent martyr. In fact it shows that they did not belong to the alliance anyway, which I also think is coz of poor writing. But I unlike you am not biased towards the alliance. They made many stupid things of that there is no question. But you, you are so unable to see your flaws that it is starting to humour me.


As for Velen, it was an act of kindness and pushed the blood elves down a better path. The Sunwell wasn't destroyed or corrupted through any fault of their own, though - and it doesn't change the fact that the Kirin Tor and remnants of Lordaeron stabbed them in the back.


And once again, you act as if it was nothing. You could say that Velen gave you a new future, he redeemed your people, he saved them from the dark path they were on an he was and is ALLIANCE. In other words, the Alliance saved your race. Didn't see any of the horde doing that.


Everything the blood elves have done in recent years has been for the benefit of their people and homeland. They're effectively the dictionary definition of pragmatic. They embraced fel energy as a necessity and would not have been able to restore Silvermoon had they not had access to such power. With the Sunwell restored and their addiction to magic eased, however, they have largely cast aside fel energy (which is something used by the Alliance itself, let us not forget) and focused on safer and additional means to safeguard their people.


This proves once again that blefs don't care about their actions to the world as long as it benefits them. Selfish and ignorant. And once again it proves that its ok for Blood Elves to do anything yet terrible for the alliance to even have one spy. Your bias is laughable.


Regardless, my point stands: the Alliance was perfectly capable of offering aid to the blood elves and engaging in diplomatic talks with the inhabitants of Quel'thalas. They didn't resort to that and instead poured salt on sore wounds by effectively forcing them into the Horde.


The Blood Elves left the Alliance and sided with the enemy. Fighting alliance soldiers. Why the hell should the Alliance start the peace talks? It should have been mutual effort, if they really wanted to. Naturally they wouldn't because of what happened in WC but ANY reasonable leader would gather intel on the "faction's" standing before engaging in any peace talks. The belfs killing the Ambassador sends a quite strong signal :).

Edit: It's worth noting that Tyrande herself fought alongside Kael'thas, so the act of spying upon the blood elves is quite strange in itself.


Tyrande also fought alongside Thrall, Ilidan, Maiev etc your point? People change, as is proof for Kael'Thas so you picked a bad example there. Oh noes why did the Alliance spy on a lunatic!! You seem to have no clue how politics work. It is all about knowing stuff about the other involved party.
Also at the same time the Belfs were assault the Draenei on the Bloodmyst isle and not just spying but outright attacking and harassing them.


Kael'thas' elves, mind you - and the moment it was revealed to the blood elves back in Quel'thalas that Kael'thas had fallen victim to madness a very large portion of them defected and pledged their loyalty to Azeroth itself.

@Solbranthius, they weren't occupying anything they were SPYING. This is a far shot from an actual invasion, sure it would lead to some diplomatic problems but not a war. Otherwise the EU and large parts of the rest of the world would currently wage war on the USA.


Yet unlike the situation in the present day real world the blood elves had suffered near annihilation at the hands of the Scourge and a direct betrayal by not one but two of their closest allies - namely Lordaeron and Dalaran - that almost resulted in a prominent number of blood elves being executed.

They were in a vulnerable position and sought to ensure the survival of their people and homeland. If the Alliance was capable of infiltrating Quel'thalas to spy they were capable of sending aid - they didn't and this combined with the Garithos and Kirin Tor issue led to the justified decision for the blood elves to ally with the Horde. The Alliance messed up and are to blame to a very large extent.

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